Joannie Rochette

[rochettefan]

I do agree with chuckm that most of her programs since firebird have been subpar choices. The previous two seasons (excluding this past one) short programs were bizarre choices and didn't do her any favors. But I did love DonJuan and she did bring the house down in Skate Canada 2006 (I believe) with that program and a nearly flawless skate.

 

[chuckm]

Skate Canada 2006 was one of Joannie's best GP performances (she scored 118.26, but it wasn't quite clean). Here's the tech content:

3F+2T+2L, 3Z+2T, 1L, CCoSp4, SlSt3, 3F, 2A+3T+seq, CSSp4, SpSq4, 3Z (-1.40 GOE), 3S, CCoSp4, FSSp4.

For the most part, she got +GOE on her jumps (except the popped loop and the solo 3Z) but on her non-jump elements, she got +GOE only on the spiral sequence (+0.60) and her second combo spin (+0.20). She received 0 GOE on all the other non-jump elements.

 

[chuckm]

There's been a lot of mention in this thread of the quality of jumps, spins and presentation of the various top skaters.

I looked at the Worlds 2008 FS protocol for the top 15 skaters in the FS, and attempted to measure the overall quality of the jump elements and non-jump elements by totalling the GOE each skater received in each area.

Here's how the top 15 in the FS at Worlds ranked in total GOE on their non-jump elements:

4.57 Nakano
3.36 Asada
2.86 Kim
2.86 Meier
2.58 Liang
2.36 Rochette
2.21 Wagner
2.14 Kostner
2.07 Dytryt
2.07 Leung
1.74 Lepisto
1.22 Sebestyen
1.13 Meissner
0.93 Marchei
0.17 Glebova

The skaters rank on quality of the jump elements, based on total cumulative GOE in the Worlds 2008 FS:
3.45 Kim
3.00 Lepisto
2.21 Asada
0.64 Dytrt
0.56 Sebestyen
0.49 Meier
0.17 Rochette
-0.57 Glebova
-1.12 Nakano
-3.14 Meissner
-3.86 Liang
-4.28 Leung
-4.54 Kostner
-4.63 Marchei
-5.72 Wagner

Here is how the top 15 in the Worlds FS rank:
(TES, PCS, Non-jump Quality, Jump Quality):
1 3 3 1 Yu-Na KIM
2 1 2 3 Mao ASADA
3 4 8 13 Carolina KOSTNER
5 2 1 9 Yukari NAKANO
4 6 6 7 Joannie ROCHETTE
6 5 4 6 Sarah MEIER
7 9 11 2 Laura LEPISTO
10 8 12 5 Julia SEBESTYEN
9 13 14 14 Valentina MARCHEI
8 15 15 8 Elena GLEBOVA
13 12 9 4 Annette DYTRT
14 7 13 10 Kimmie MEISSNER
11 11 5 11 Beatrisa LIANG
12 14 10 12 Mira LEUNG
15 10 7 15 Ashley WAGNER

Looking further at the PCS scores, here's how each skater ranked in the subcategories:
(SS, TR, PE, CH, IN)

2 4 3 4 4 Yu-Na KIM
1 1 1 1 1 Mao ASADA
3 3 4 2 3 Carolina KOSTNER
4 2 2 3 2 Yukari NAKANO
6 6 6 6 6 Joannie ROCHETTE
5 5 5 5 5 Sarah MEIER
11 12 11 11 11 Laura LEPISTO
10 10 7 10 10 Julia SEBESTYEN
15 16 14 14 14 Valentina MARCHEI
21 20 18 19 18 Elena GLEBOVA
8 8 9 8 8 Annette DYTRT
9 9 10 9 9 Kimmie MEISSNER
12 13 13 13 13 Beatrisa LIANG
14 14 16 17 17 Mira LEUNG
13 11 12 12 12 Ashley WAGNER
18 18 19 18 19 Ksenia DORONINA
7 7 8 7 7 Kiira KORPI

 

[Mathman]

Looking further at the PCS scores, here's how each skater ranked in the subcategories:
(SS, TR, PE, CH, IN)

2 4 3 4 4 Yu-Na KIM
1 1 1 1 1 Mao ASADA
3 3 4 2 3 Carolina KOSTNER
4 2 2 3 2 Yukari NAKANO
6 6 6 6 6 Joannie ROCHETTE
5 5 5 5 5 Sarah MEIER
...

Pretty convincing evidence that the judges are simply using the PCSs as second mark ordinals.

 

[chuckm]

What I find amazing is that Kostner ranks 8th and 13th in non-jump/jump quality, but 3rd in TES and 4th in PCS. Part of the reason is that her non-jump elements are all L3 and L4, and she doesn't get UR and edge calls.

 

[antmanb]

I do agree with chuckm that most of her programs since firebird have been subpar choices. The previous two seasons (excluding this past one) short programs were bizarre choices and didn't do her any favors. But I did love DonJuan and she did bring the house down in Skate Canada 2006 (I believe) with that program and a nearly flawless skate.

In this sport, though, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You use a cliched piece of music that everyone uses and people roll their eyes and complain. You choose a piece of music that no-one has ever skated to and everyone is up in arms about the bizarre choice of music.

Ant

 

[chuckm]

In this sport, though, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You use a cliched piece of music that everyone uses and people roll their eyes and complain. You choose a piece of music that no-one has ever skated to and everyone is up in arms about the bizarre choice of music.

Ant

The complaints about Joannie's music have often been not the music itself, but that it didn't suit her ("Hymne D'Amour" and the elevator versions of rock music) or that she didn't relate much to it ("Don Juan").

Rachael Flatt has skated to music no one else has used much (Gershwin and the modern piano concerto this year) and there haven't been complaints.

 

[rochettefan]

I don't know. I've seen too many great Rochette performances to write her off as some top-10 wanna-be. She is one of the worlds top skaters and although she hasn't been terribly consistent she is always a danger to take a medal at any international gathering of top skaters. The exhibition program posted way back in this thread shows a Joannie Rochette that is smooth and effortless while paying detailed attention to the music. For nerve reasons she can't seem to quite get into that zone and it is holding her back. If she can learn to skate free and relaxed she can do well. With all the jumps too of course.

 

[Mathman]

For some reason Joannie Rochette, of all the skaters in the world, has to be absolutely perfect in her technical elements in order to get any consideration on the PCS side. The least little bobble and she not only loses points for the element, but her artistic scores take a beating, too.

I think she is a very exciting performer.

 

[mskater93]

Sounds like it's time to visit a sports psychologist who specializes in performance sport.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For some reason Joannie Rochette, of all the skaters in the world, has to be absolutely perfect in her technical elements in order to get any consideration on the PCS side. The least little bobble and she not only loses points for the element, but her artistic scores take a beating, too.

I think she is a very exciting performer.

This is very true, and it has nothing to do with nationality but a method used to select the podium by the process of elimination. So much of this shows up in Skate Dance. JMO. Sad. Joannie is a fine skater

Joe.

 

[chuckm]

I don't know. I've seen too many great Rochette performances to write her off as some top-10 wanna-be. She is one of the worlds top skaters and although she hasn't been terribly consistent she is always a danger to take a medal at any international gathering of top skaters. The exhibition program posted way back in this thread shows a Joannie Rochette that is smooth and effortless while paying detailed attention to the music. For nerve reasons she can't seem to quite get into that zone and it is holding her back. If she can learn to skate free and relaxed she can do well. With all the jumps too of course.

I don't think anyone has said Joannie is "some top-10 wanna-be". That may be true of Mira Leung, but not of Joannie.

 

[TtonyV7]

I actually liked her Little Wing program by Hendrix. It was mature and different, and many world commentators appreciated it. But the lack of melody hurt her, and judges weren't to keen on the program.

I agree that Don Juan was not best suited for her. A program which required her to be 100% on to be appreciated.

Her Dvorak Trio SP was nicely done a few years back.

I like David Wilson a lot, but some of previous works before him were in some ways better. I thought her 2004 programs best fitted her, and you can tell how more relax she was:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UhXqU9zFZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NGrlv6ZI0E

I think Rochette has a mature, artistic quality to her skating. It's just finding the right programs and music to highlight it properly, and than perhaps her PCS will be boost up (but her jumps gotta be more consistent!)

Like I said before, I think Rochette will be competitive in every event that she'll enter this year, however I think she'll be a notch behind Kim and Asada. But if she's consistent, she will be challenger for that world podium with Kostner and Nakano.

P.S: Any word on what Rochette might be skating this year. I hope it's Grieg Concerto....

 

[shine]

I actually liked her Little Wing program by Hendrix. It was mature and different, and many world commentators appreciated it. But the lack of melody hurt her, and judges weren't to keen on the program.

I agree that Don Juan was not best suited for her. A program which required her to be 100% on to be appreciated.

Her Dvorak Trio SP was nicely done a few years back.

I like David Wilson a lot, but some of previous works before him were in some ways better. I thought her 2004 programs best fitted her, and you can tell how more relax she was:

I think Rochette has a mature, artistic quality to her skating. It's just finding the right programs and music to highlight it properly, and than perhaps her PCS will be boost up (but her jumps gotta be more consistent!)

I agree. Little Wing is actually my favourite program from her in the past couple of years. I think she showed great interpretive quality and musicality in the program. I have no idea why the judges and most fans did not "get" it.
Joannie, as far as I know, have been with David Wilson for most of her career. I also loved her 2004 programs (esp. the LP) which was done by Wilson. I really like David Wilson and truly think he's one of the most creative/sensitive choreographers around, but for some reason I don't think he's been pouring his creative juice on Joannie in the past few seasons. His work with other skaters have been far more interesting and masterful IMO. Therefore I think it's time for Joannie to leave him and seek other insights.

 

[chuckm]

I think Wilson's choreography is just too difficult for Joannie to execute cleanly. It is a case of choreography overwhelming the skater instead of emphasizing her particular abilities. Wilson is a better choreographer for men, rather than women. Many of the ladies for whom he's choreographed have wound up simplifying it (Cohen and Emily Hughes) or ditching it altogether (Ando).

I think simpler choreo would allow Joannie to focus more on interpreting the music, instead of having to concentrate on executing the individual elements and in-betweens. It isn't as if the tough choreo is bringing her high PCS scores.

 

[museksk8r]

I wonder if Joannie has considered working with Lori Nichol or Lee Ann Miller. I'd love to see what either one of them could produce with her. I don't know of anyone she has worked with aside from David Wilson and Sandra Bezic, who choreographed "Little Wing."

 

[fumie_fumie]

Good point about Wilson's choreography suiting men more than ladies.

Add Yu-na to the list of lady skaters who found Wilson's choreo too difficult to perform. A lot of Korean fans asked her to re-use the "The Lark Ascending" for new season (the program was Korean fans' emotional favourite ) and Yu-na's answer is basically "no, it is a way too difficult and too exhausting. I have little energy left for jumps" She attributed some of the inconsistency in her 2006-2007 LP to too much in-between elements in the program.

By the way, I love Joannie's Little Wing very much. It is very different. I think she got really dinged for bringing something way too different for judge's level of tolerance and it was reflected in PCS. Hence, going back to the good, old, over-used classics.

 

[Nigel]

Quote:
As for Rachael Flatt that everyone is harping on, we will see where she stands when she becomes an old-school 22. I remember Kimmie was a wonder kid just two seasons ago. Yukari, yes I agree that she does sell her programs, but as for Rachael, give her a couple of more seasons and see how she progresses.

Kimmie won Worlds with a two-3/3 technical program, but she has never been strong in the presentation area. Rachael did win JGPF silver, Nationals silver, and JW at just 15, and considering her age, her presentation skills are well developed. Her technical skills may undergo change as she grows and matures, but I don't see why her presentation skills would deteriorate. I would tend to think they would be even better at 22.

Flatt is 15 yrs old. Let's wait 7 yrs before we put her in the "old school" at 22.

 

[screech]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I did read a couple of things about Joannie and the 3/3.

What people seem to be focusing on is that she hasn't really had one in the past... everyone seems to forget that in her Firebird LP (04/05 season) she had a lot of success doing a triple toe/triple toe combo that was amazing! (check out her 05 Canadians LP for an example). I have no idea why she wasn't doing it after that point until this year, but she definitely can do rockin' 3/3 combos.

 

[chuckm]

Joannie tried the 3T/3T combo four times during her Firebird season. She landed two of the four attempts successfully. She didn't go for the 3T/3T again after that season, and didn't try any 3/3s until this past season, when she attempted the 3F/3T combo in the SP at 4CC and Nationals. The 3T was called UR at 4CC, and at Nationals, the 3T was UR and she fell on it as well. She did not attempt the 3/3 at 2008 Worlds, so she must have felt it was not secure enough to try again.