Johnny Weir Robbed Big Time

[Joesitz (RIP)]

, then IMO, it isn't really a 'sport'. It's a pageant.

Hsuhs Quote:
Originally Posted by 1cmarie
It's a pageant.

At times, it does look like one. The only way to make it a sport is to get rid of the music which so few skaters hardly pay attention to anyway. Judge those elements the way they do in Diving. and then have the winners free skate in exhibitions.

Joe

 

[PolymerBob]

It gets better. Now there's uncertainty in the calculation used to figure the scores.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-spw-skate2feb02,1,7926386.story?track=rss

Gotta love it.

 

[Hikaru]

:yes:

I'm not so sure about the Yagudin-Johnny comparison, though. Johnny does skate with a self-contained introspection (not so much now as in previous years, however). I wouldn't say that about Yagudin. Maybe Matt Savoie would be a better comparison for this performance attitude.

Personally, I think that Yagudin has this ability to perform different types of "styles", so to speak. He can be more restrained or introvertive (I think of his program "Overcome" which, for me, wasn't the woohoo-join-me-in-a-frenzy-skate type of a performance). In this case I think is fare to say that Johnny shares that type of interpretation.

However, Yagudin could also perform a more, how to say it, happy-mood-performance. Still, when doing either type of interpretation, he never lost his personality. He could do both types, and you could still see Alexei's personality, IMHO.

I agree with you with the Savoi's comparison:agree:

 

[jsteam4501s]

:yes:

Uhhh - don't know what that means........ Are you saying "Yes, you are right" or "yes, what you said is ridiculous and funny" ?

I only posted from memory, and I mainly remember Evan being less-than-perfect on at least most of his landings if not all of them. Sorry.

 

[Mathman]

Are you saying "Yes, you are right" or "yes, what you said is ridiculous and funny"?

Yes, you are right and funny. What I got a kick out of was this. Everyone is complaining that Evan was overmarked because all of his jump landings was scratchy, the inference being that Johnny was a lot better in that regard. So your post that Johnny had 2 or 3 OK landings (the rest as bad as Evan's) struck me as true and funny.

It gets better. Now there's uncertainty in the calculation used to figure the scores.

Here's the thread about it.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19475&page=5

Originally Posted by 1cmarie
It's a pageant.

At times, it does look like one. The only way to make it a sport is to get rid of the music which so few skaters hardly pay attention to anyway. Judge those elements the way they do in Diving. and then have the winners free skate in exhibitions.

That's the erternal dilemma. If we leave out the music and the pageantry, then figure skating would become... well, like diving. A sport than no one wants to watch and few want to participate in.

If we keep the music, the costumes, and the theater, then people say it's not a sport.

There is a thread on the edge right now about the importance of facial expression. Is facial expression part of sport?

 

[discoduck]

To me, Johnny's skating is much like John Curry's. They both have the same lyrical, understated elegant style. I can also see the Cranston comparisons but in my opinion, he's more like Curry.

Oh and I have to say this. I don't get why people think Lysacek has such fabulous footwork. To me, he seems like he is flinging himself down the ice and looks out of control. Now Kurt Browning, Scott Hamilton....that's my definition of footwork.

 

[Mathman]

Oh and I have to say this. I don't get why people think Lysacek has such fabulous footwork. To me, he seems like he is flinging himself down the ice and looks out of control.

When I watch on TV, for me, it's hard to tell whether the skaters are doing good footwork or not. The camera rarely shoes the feet at all, and even when they do, it is not so easy to identify all the rockers, counters, Mohawks, brackets, turns and twizzles that they are supposedly earning points for.

Some skaters, like Yagudin, had the knack of doing very little, but making it seem like what they were doing was really hard. Plushenko, on the other hand, gave little pretense of doing anything but flailing his arms about. I'm not sure about Lysacek.

About John Curry, a couple of years ago I though Johnny's skating had that kind of natural grace. Now, I think Weir has fallen victim to the CoP.

IMHO, Toller Cranston -- even now -- was an avant garde kind of guy. Johnny is more classical (IMO).

 

[Tonichelle]

Oh and I have to say this. I don't get why people think Lysacek has such fabulous footwork. To me, he seems like he is flinging himself down the ice and looks out of control. Now Kurt Browning, Scott Hamilton....that's my definition of footwork.

Evan certainly doesn't have his footwork up to those standards, I'd definitely agree... but I think the fact that he is so fast and does more than the Alexi/Morosov four step plan for success gives him a whole lot more than the average skater... I love his twizzling

ok so I just love him period

Alexei gets praise for his straightline footwork, but even he said it's actually relatively simple, and he just sells it well... which I can't argue. It works for Alexei and it certainly works for Evan....

 

[GoldMedalist]

See I see the same performance quality in both Yags and Lysacek. They both skate OUT to the audience and seem to need the audience energy to PUSH them

Except Yagudin has soul in his performances. Lysacek doesn't, sorry.

 

[Mathman]

Except Yagudin has soul in his performances...

The soul of P.T. Barnum. :agree:

 

[Tonichelle]

to some, maybe... I don't get anymore moved by Yags as I do Lysacek.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is a thread on the edge right now about the importance of facial expression. Is facial expression part of sport?

Only if it's natural. There are facial expressions in all sports: boxing, football, soccer, tennis, One doesn't have to mimic a facial expression when one is trying to compete. However, the music gets in the way in Figure Skating, imo.,
and it does become less than professional if it doesn't really carry the skater.

Joe

 

[GoldMedalist]

The soul of P.T. Barnum. :agree:

When Yagudin skates, for me, he displays not only power and excitement but also a scarred soul. I can feel the hurt and difficulty he has been through in his life.

Lysacek has good energy but I can always tell that he's trying. His best, most selfless performance ever was the 2006 Olympics LP. He was channeling some real emotions there.

Then there is Weir, who is fully committed to turning his music into beautiful movement when his spirits are up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

About John Curry, a couple of years ago I though Johnny's skating had that kind of natural grace. Now, I think Weir has fallen victim to the CoP.

Johnny is a natural but his choreography is going downhill with rushing into elements and those horrible hand movements. That's not growing out of Otonal. That's blatant stupidity. I think a choreographer can give him a routine and he should be able to take it from there on his own, and not be forced to show excessive hand mannerisms.

Joe

 

[Germanice]

Let's put it this way:
Alexei moves/moved me to tears,
Lysacek to the bathroom .....

So much about "similarities" ....

 

[emma]

The soul of P.T. Barnum. :agree:

Now that is downright irreverant (sp???)....and hilarious, of course.

So here's my armchair take on Weir's LP's since the Olympic year ... and it links to Yagudin. Tatiana (and company) created the beautiful swan - that Weir just loved it and made it so beautiful, and she wanted Liberstraum for the LP -- and he just couldn't get into that program or music for some reason (which kind of surprised me given what I thought to be his lyrical, introspective, intricate style).

Now, if we think about some of his music since that year, the first LP (before returning to a not so great version of Otonal) - it seems like he is searching for a kind of 'powerful' music, a kind of music where he can higlight his clean lines and jumps yet also exude a little something else --- perhaps the very power of the music and still skate clean. Who else did that ---??? --- Yagudin, of course. I have thought for some time that Johnny is trying to go for that kind of approach - clean, crisp, techically spot on with great basics and flow and (and perhaps less intricacy)... well, power. Is he doing it....I didn't think so last year, but I feel he is working towards that (with quite a bit of improvement) this year.

Does he want to be 'just like Yagudin'? Or is Yagudin's style or artistry the same as Johnny's?? I don't think so, but I do think he wants to have a kind of Yagudin like effect (or is it affect, or both...)....clean without leaving any doubt in the viewer's mind, command the ice, crisp, flow.

 

[Babyskates]

Why insult Evan?

It is really sad how many posters feel the need to insult Evan. Evan is a fine skater and a wonderful person. You may not agree with how Nationals turned out. You may genuinely not enjoy Evan's skating. Believe it or not, lots of people do! Many even prefer Evan. TO EACH HIS OWN. Loving Johnny doesn't require hatred for Evan.

 

[Germanice]

It is really sad how many posters feel the need to insult Evan. Evan is a fine skater and a wonderful person. You may not agree with how Nationals turned out. You may genuinely not enjoy Evan's skating. Believe it or not, lots of people do! Many even prefer Evan. TO EACH HIS OWN. Loving Johnny doesn't require hatred for Evan.

Maybe it's just cause a few Yags/Plush fans might be "insulted" by .... uhmmm .... "comparisions" .... with ... skaters... like ... Lysacek???

 

[attyfan]

Maybe it's just cause a few Yags/Plush fans might be "insulted" by .... uhmmm .... "comparisions" .... with ... skaters... like ... Lysacek???

Sorry, but I don't see how love for a skater (Yags, Plush, or J We) should result in insults to another, simply because of comparisons not made by them but by their fans.

 

[Medusa]

Sorry, but I don't see how love for a skater (Yags, Plush, or J We) should result in insults to another, simply because of comparisons not made by them but by their fans.

Well, it is not an insult if I say that I cannot compare Plushenko and Lysacek because Plushenko is so much better. It is more like stating an opinion. Lysacek tries to copy the bravado Plushenko had - but he just cannot pull it of. And that's not an insult - a big part of Plushenko's bravado was the perfection of his jumps, he could do them all, there was nothing underrotated or tightly landed - Lysacek doesn't have this.

I think it might be easier to copy Yagudin than to copy Plushenko because IMO Plushenko's magic was the perfection (he had way more perfect programs than Yagudin), the difficulty of his jump elements, that was part of his style. Even Plushenko's arm flailing didn't concern me too much, because of his aura on the ice - it was like: here I am, I am a cool Russian dude, I am precise, I am better than everyone else (on the ice), I work hard and therefore I am allowed to have not much choreography - just watch the miracle that is me.

Yagudin and Weir aren't a good comparison either, not because Yagudin is so much better (he is still a bit better...) - but because their styles are so different, like night and day. I can't even pick out one similarity between them. Yagudin looked like the Gladiator everytime he was out there, he fought through his programs, through his footwork, he often made a program look like a passionate combat. Weir doesn't really fight through his programs, they are either bad and go downhill from the beginning, than the program doesn't look like a fight - it looks like surrender. Or they are great and everything looks amazing and totally effortless - with the result that people call his programs too easy and his choreography too empty .