Johnny's Reaction in the K&C
- Thread starter Dee4707
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- Jun 27, 2003
and at that time it was that way. his book so much as says so. Even in 98 Brian Orser was so worried about his career that he did everything to keep the court/media from disclosing his sexuality.
I don't think it's as big a deal anymore. But I'm not in that world so I don't really know. I just don't see it as a stigma the way it was when I was younger.
I don't think it's as big a deal anymore. But I'm not in that world so I don't really know. I just don't see it as a stigma the way it was when I was younger.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
ITA that the sexuality of the skaters is none of our business. Except, if the skaters’ federation is telling them either outright or through intimidation that they need to stay in the closet or else. Then as a fan and someone who contributes $ to that federation it becomes your business. If someone or a group is being intimidated or persecuted you should make it your business. If I thought they were choosing to stay in the closet for their own personal reasoning and that it had nothing to do w/ persecution or fear then I wouldn’t care. But, I think it’s ridiculous to assume that large groups of adult gay men over the course of decades just didn’t want to come out? Clearly they’re afraid to. Even after they turn pro they’re afraid to come out. And you have situations where they seem to be going out of their way to appear straight even.
-Jon Jackson said in his book that the sport was v. homophobic and that openly gay skaters wouldn’t succeed.
- We know that Rudy says he was treated unfairly after he came out.
- In Christine Brennan’s book she said that the only reason Rudy won the 96’ nationals is b/c he had the skate of his life. She said that the USFSA had already decided that they wouldn’t let an openly gay man win nationals but, b/c he had such an amazing skate they had to give it to him.
- We know that Brian Orser was scared for his career when he was outed.
None of you think it’s odd that there are no openly gay skaters currently competing? Many of the North Americans are obviously gay and none of them feel comfortable being out? You don’t need to work for the FBI to realize that there is clearly something nasty going on. Until at least a few of these guys come out and I see them get fair scores afterwards I will continue to believe there is homophobia in the sport. This is one of the reasons why I think FS is losing fans. As older fans die FS needs to bring in younger fans. But, ppl my age don’t like FS b/c it seems to be stuck in some odd 50’s time warp. It’s like they’re stuck in that movie, Pleasantville? When I watch FS w/ my friends they ask, “Why are none of these men out?” and “why won’t that Kimmie girl wear lipstick; why is she acting like a 7 year old?” I
-Jon Jackson said in his book that the sport was v. homophobic and that openly gay skaters wouldn’t succeed.
- We know that Rudy says he was treated unfairly after he came out.
- In Christine Brennan’s book she said that the only reason Rudy won the 96’ nationals is b/c he had the skate of his life. She said that the USFSA had already decided that they wouldn’t let an openly gay man win nationals but, b/c he had such an amazing skate they had to give it to him.
- We know that Brian Orser was scared for his career when he was outed.
None of you think it’s odd that there are no openly gay skaters currently competing? Many of the North Americans are obviously gay and none of them feel comfortable being out? You don’t need to work for the FBI to realize that there is clearly something nasty going on. Until at least a few of these guys come out and I see them get fair scores afterwards I will continue to believe there is homophobia in the sport. This is one of the reasons why I think FS is losing fans. As older fans die FS needs to bring in younger fans. But, ppl my age don’t like FS b/c it seems to be stuck in some odd 50’s time warp. It’s like they’re stuck in that movie, Pleasantville? When I watch FS w/ my friends they ask, “Why are none of these men out?” and “why won’t that Kimmie girl wear lipstick; why is she acting like a 7 year old?” I
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
Rosa Parks stood up to the indignities of society, not the bus company.
Can you think of any sport that would be more homosexual friendly than FS?
Persecution is an aspect of society, the ISU is a society, it will have issues, but these issues SHOULD have nothing to do with sport. The issue is with society, so address society.
And here again, the "most major" sport bring attention to ANY form of homosexual acceptance would be FS. So what is the beef? There is NO NEED to promote it's acceptance in FS. It does that already by societies awareness of homosexuality in it, opposition is to maintain a focus on sport and to obtain other fans by showing them that Heterosexuals are in the sport also! Everyone is aware of homosexuality in FS already. No need to "bark up that tree" when there is a whole other forest full of opposition in "other trees."
A nice balance could be seen here if one portion of a group wasn't so hell bent on it being all about their vendetta against society (rightly so IMO, Homophobia is wrong) that really belongs in the proper forum for discussion. I say it is bogus when someone tries to blame the ISU for them not wanting to come out, they don't want to for implications of society yet try and blame FS?
The aim is off here and will not do this righteous cause:agree: the justice it deserves, it is counter productive.
All these issues coming up around this topic are issues with in society, the correlation between FS and said topic are just (if not less in FS) prevalent in life. I feel the topic trying to combined itself with FS are just trying to USE FS as a vehicle for this noble cause because this is one of the places where the least amount of opposition will be found - it is the easiest. Nobel as it may be,:agree: I would rather it be about the sport instead of people trying to overt it into their own personal vehicle promoting the social acceptance issues.
IOW, if you want to promote acceptance of homosexuals in society, then use to proper vehicle. FS committees are doing nothing different than that which is a refection of society - actually FS is more accepting than many - so this issue is still society. Not FS.
This has just turned into a finger pointing scape goat issue trying to place some kind of blame on one of the most accepting organizations to homosexuality. Counter productive, I can imagine the ISU is afraid of the skating community being preserved as more of a "pride march" then a "sport." All the conjecture and negative remarks toward a society (FS) that is well known as having homosexuals in it is a clear indication that some would take FS and turn it into their own cause.
Maybe because it is none of our business? So don't bring it because it does not have to do with skating. They bring it up and the ISU responds " it has nothing to do with FS as a sport." No one is stopping them from talking on Opra." What is their cause, to be a great FS athlete or to bring attention to gay awareness? Is FS an advocacy group or a sport. What is your main cause at this point in your life, sport or advocacy? They are drawing a line - cross it or not - there always needs to be one in sports.
Can you think of any sport that would be more homosexual friendly than FS?
Persecution is an aspect of society, the ISU is a society, it will have issues, but these issues SHOULD have nothing to do with sport. The issue is with society, so address society.
And here again, the "most major" sport bring attention to ANY form of homosexual acceptance would be FS. So what is the beef? There is NO NEED to promote it's acceptance in FS. It does that already by societies awareness of homosexuality in it, opposition is to maintain a focus on sport and to obtain other fans by showing them that Heterosexuals are in the sport also! Everyone is aware of homosexuality in FS already. No need to "bark up that tree" when there is a whole other forest full of opposition in "other trees."
A nice balance could be seen here if one portion of a group wasn't so hell bent on it being all about their vendetta against society (rightly so IMO, Homophobia is wrong) that really belongs in the proper forum for discussion. I say it is bogus when someone tries to blame the ISU for them not wanting to come out, they don't want to for implications of society yet try and blame FS?
The aim is off here and will not do this righteous cause:agree: the justice it deserves, it is counter productive.
All these issues coming up around this topic are issues with in society, the correlation between FS and said topic are just (if not less in FS) prevalent in life. I feel the topic trying to combined itself with FS are just trying to USE FS as a vehicle for this noble cause because this is one of the places where the least amount of opposition will be found - it is the easiest. Nobel as it may be,:agree: I would rather it be about the sport instead of people trying to overt it into their own personal vehicle promoting the social acceptance issues.
IOW, if you want to promote acceptance of homosexuals in society, then use to proper vehicle. FS committees are doing nothing different than that which is a refection of society - actually FS is more accepting than many - so this issue is still society. Not FS.
This has just turned into a finger pointing scape goat issue trying to place some kind of blame on one of the most accepting organizations to homosexuality. Counter productive, I can imagine the ISU is afraid of the skating community being preserved as more of a "pride march" then a "sport." All the conjecture and negative remarks toward a society (FS) that is well known as having homosexuals in it is a clear indication that some would take FS and turn it into their own cause.
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- Oct 2, 2006
ITA that the ‘homosexual agenda’ lol should be a separate issue from the sport but, I think if the federations are telling skaters in any way shape or form that they must stay in the closet or it will effect their scores then they have now brought it into the sport. If it has ever or may ever affect the outcome of a competition or who a federation promotes then they have colored the objectivity of the sport w/ their prejudice. Even the biggest bigot wouldn’t want bias to manipulate athlete standings based on sexual orientation. If they allow any prejudice then it is they who have brought the homosexual agenda upon themselves.
Where does one pick and choose when to have a moral objection to something? Any prejudice no matter where it hides should be ferreted out and forced to face the light of reason. And if there is prejudice in FS then it is a symptom of society’s ills, therefore by tolerating it here one is saying its ok elsewhere.
And I don’t know for a fact that there even is any homophobia in FS? I believe there is though based on the lack of openly gay skaters and based on what some like Jackson, Brennan, and Galindo have said. JMHO.
Where does one pick and choose when to have a moral objection to something? Any prejudice no matter where it hides should be ferreted out and forced to face the light of reason. And if there is prejudice in FS then it is a symptom of society’s ills, therefore by tolerating it here one is saying its ok elsewhere.
And I don’t know for a fact that there even is any homophobia in FS? I believe there is though based on the lack of openly gay skaters and based on what some like Jackson, Brennan, and Galindo have said. JMHO.
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- Mar 19, 2006
I think we are barley disagreeing AND both feel homosexuality should not be "persicuted" in anyway, but I see this as very ... well ... contradictory.
What is the problem?
As far as homophobia in it, I do agree there is likely some too. Mostly because it is in society, and FS is no different OTHER THAN it is more accepting than other sports to homosexuality.
I really doubt that the notion that homosexual skaters are being told to stay in the closet, but rather it is conjecture and "thru the grape vine" comments that are taken with bias when heard. I would believe much more of a comment like - "if you do openly profess your sexuality you will be opening yourself up to bias of judges and fans. We [the ISU] recommend for the fairest outcome based on your skating that you pay particular attention to to possibility this COULD effect peoples opinions - whether the ISU says it should not, the ISU can not control the bias of an individual, only subject them to review. We recommend that you appear to be most focused on your skating in your present career now to better your opportunities in the future and to circumvent any potential bias that maybe and beyond sanction control."
As Toni said to my comment about Johnny changing his approach this year - If you can't beat them join them.
First, if this is an issue of "beating them" at something other than FS, then yes joining them makes sense. He likely learned the old analogy, "you must work with a society to change a society." As well as "There is a time and place."
Second, I don't think 90% of the people who know of Johnny would think anything different than he is gay. So to a majority of the public if he "came out" it would be taken as he is trying to draw attention to himself in other ways than FS. That will be taken negatively, as well fuel a fire of FS not being a sport where the non-FS fan can say "see it is a advocacy group, not a sport."
And I still believe the biggest issue the US has with Johnny is he outward "appearance" that he really does not respect the USA and would rather be skating for Russia. I think that offends a great deal of US organizations that work to create opportunities for skaters and then receive a "slap in the face" when they are there for a skater and that skater is not there for them. Individual sport means one of a "team" competes. Lets not forget about everyone that did their part, you wouldn't have the opportunity to do if they didn't.
On the same note I think this should cause them to think. But there are better ways of saying "I disapprove" then "flipping someone the bird.":yes:
They are telling them to keep it out of the sport and you are saying it should be kept out of the sport. ???
What is the problem?
As far as homophobia in it, I do agree there is likely some too. Mostly because it is in society, and FS is no different OTHER THAN it is more accepting than other sports to homosexuality.
I really doubt that the notion that homosexual skaters are being told to stay in the closet, but rather it is conjecture and "thru the grape vine" comments that are taken with bias when heard. I would believe much more of a comment like - "if you do openly profess your sexuality you will be opening yourself up to bias of judges and fans. We [the ISU] recommend for the fairest outcome based on your skating that you pay particular attention to to possibility this COULD effect peoples opinions - whether the ISU says it should not, the ISU can not control the bias of an individual, only subject them to review. We recommend that you appear to be most focused on your skating in your present career now to better your opportunities in the future and to circumvent any potential bias that maybe and beyond sanction control."
As Toni said to my comment about Johnny changing his approach this year - If you can't beat them join them.
First, if this is an issue of "beating them" at something other than FS, then yes joining them makes sense. He likely learned the old analogy, "you must work with a society to change a society." As well as "There is a time and place."
Second, I don't think 90% of the people who know of Johnny would think anything different than he is gay. So to a majority of the public if he "came out" it would be taken as he is trying to draw attention to himself in other ways than FS. That will be taken negatively, as well fuel a fire of FS not being a sport where the non-FS fan can say "see it is a advocacy group, not a sport."
And I still believe the biggest issue the US has with Johnny is he outward "appearance" that he really does not respect the USA and would rather be skating for Russia. I think that offends a great deal of US organizations that work to create opportunities for skaters and then receive a "slap in the face" when they are there for a skater and that skater is not there for them. Individual sport means one of a "team" competes. Lets not forget about everyone that did their part, you wouldn't have the opportunity to do if they didn't.
On the same note I think this should cause them to think. But there are better ways of saying "I disapprove" then "flipping someone the bird.":yes:
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- Mar 19, 2006
I just don't see how any "public view" would think FS is prejudice, except to heterosexuals, so to society it already does it's part and wishes not for the world to view FS as an advocacy group when trying to maintain a free of prejudice EITHER WAY sport.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
There's more interest and money to be made when heterosexuals enjoy something. I think that's what the USFS is saying. Nothing about being gay.
[sarc on] I wonder why. After all, in the gay marriage debates, there is always the talk about procreation -- which tends to reduce disposable income. Since it is simply more difficult for gays to procreate, then they should have more disposible income -- so, more money should be made pandering to them than to heterosexuals. [sarc off]
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- Mar 19, 2006
Not sure why I was quoted and then this response.?
Heterosexual is a larger market, right now at this moment if you want to appeal to a bigger crowd it is not a mystery which is larger. If you need money you don't try catering to a group that already seems to be interested / involved, you go for the one you don't have and not be adverse to either one. Promoting one more than another is not saying ones wrong, just saying we want both. No mystery there.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Well I'm 22 and my interest isn't waning because someone has or hasn't come out. Nor do I really care about the politics of the sport - not because I turn a blind eye - but because I'm not even a fly on teh wall. I have to go by rumors and speculation and so I just choose to watch and like what I want to and pay little attention to the rest
as for no openly gay skaters, I thought Sandhu came out a few years ago (or maybe since I've been on the boards and people have said it so much I just assumed)?
As for sexuality? I. DON'T. CARE. It remains that many of these folks indeed are in the closet but I could care less what they say or do about it. Only Weir seems to stand out.
Those who like men's skating should just enjoy it. Who cares about the orientation of the skaters. Just like I could care less who's dating whom in Hollywood.
Those who like men's skating should just enjoy it. Who cares about the orientation of the skaters. Just like I could care less who's dating whom in Hollywood.
Just curious -- does anyone know if other federations would have the same reaction to an openly gay skater that the USFS is accused of having towards Johnny?
Also, it seems to me that, on some board or another, the sexual orientation of every male skater is questioned. I've even read posts from people who wonder about Michael Weiss, on the theory that "methinks, he doth protest too much"
Also, it seems to me that, on some board or another, the sexual orientation of every male skater is questioned. I've even read posts from people who wonder about Michael Weiss, on the theory that "methinks, he doth protest too much"
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- Oct 2, 2006
Well, until I know for certain one way or the other I’ll try and just enjoy the sport. I do have a hard time w/ it however. I can’t help thinking that the gay skaters are being treated unfairly behind closed doors-if they are I don’t want to support the sport or give $ to it in anyway. I love watching and following FS so I try and not let it affect me but, I can’t help it? Just like no matter how much I love a pair of Nikes my conscious won’t let me wear something that was made by a 10 yr old in a sweat shop. I just wish I knew for certain that they aren’t remaining in the closet out of fear and intimidation so that I could enjoy it w/ a clean conscience. I guess I’ll have to wait for Johnny’s tell-all book.
As far as Johnny being overly dramatic…I don’t think he was at Calgary last year. I think he was in pain and was at his tipping point. But, his journals I find to be somewhat dramatic at times. Although I sometimes can’t tell if he’s serious or joking?
As far as Johnny being overly dramatic…I don’t think he was at Calgary last year. I think he was in pain and was at his tipping point. But, his journals I find to be somewhat dramatic at times. Although I sometimes can’t tell if he’s serious or joking?
So you were in the audience at Worlds, did you personally talk to Johnny Weir before or after the skate? Did you speak to the team doctor? How do you know how much or how little pain he was in before, during and after the competition? Have you ever had a back injury? My father injured his back a few years ago, he couldn't even stand up and actually had to sleep on the floor because he needed a firm surface below his back. The fact that Johnny skated with back spasms so severe he couldn't stand up straight three days before the competition shows what a strong competitor he is. Did you ever consider that the reason it took him so long to get up was because his back locked and he couldn't get up? Why don't you find a copy of ESPN's coverage and take a close look at Johnny's face after his skate was over. Tell me the man wasn't in serious pain.[/QUOTE]
If Johnny's injuries were as serious as you say I would think it was unwise to skate at worlds and risk futher injury, It would be fair to say that most athletes at that level are dealing with different degrees of injuries as a result of their skating. I am not trying to be insensitve to the skater but would question the wisdom of the decision, not only physically but mentally as well. Lets face it at a world level you are a role model to young skaters, do you think his decision to skate sent the right message? I have been involved with the sport for 30+ years, I have seen skaters at every level struggles with all kinds of injuries, it can be very difficult decision to withdraw from a competition or take time off from training, but if you don't take of your health your career can be a short one.
Being a strong competitor is not about putting yourself at risk.
If Johnny's injuries were as serious as you say I would think it was unwise to skate at worlds and risk futher injury, It would be fair to say that most athletes at that level are dealing with different degrees of injuries as a result of their skating. I am not trying to be insensitve to the skater but would question the wisdom of the decision, not only physically but mentally as well. Lets face it at a world level you are a role model to young skaters, do you think his decision to skate sent the right message? I have been involved with the sport for 30+ years, I have seen skaters at every level struggles with all kinds of injuries, it can be very difficult decision to withdraw from a competition or take time off from training, but if you don't take of your health your career can be a short one.
Being a strong competitor is not about putting yourself at risk.
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- Feb 5, 2004
But if officials at national federations are telling skaters that they must not come out and their way of carryingout their threats is not giving them the wins/marks, then they are bringing sexuality into the sport. Toe our party line otherwise you will get nowhere. Where is the difference between that a company telling someone that their homosexuality is unnacceptable and to keep it under wraps or they will not get promoted?
I think your quote should say "should" not "would". Equally can you think of a career that should be more homosexual friendly than acting...but we all know what Hollywood is like.
That is such a cop out argument though, its like having a war on "terror". We can always blame "society" for everything, but what and who do you think society is made up of? People, the same people who employ people to do their work, the same people who set up a sporting federation and have people give money to support that federation and arrange competitions. Maybe because FS should bethe most "homosexual" friendly sport, it should be the pioneering sport to say - its ok to be openly gay and an athlete. You may not want people using sport as a sounding board for gay rights, but then some people may use the same argument to say that the workplace is also not a place to be discussing gay rights, another group my say a social club isn't the palce....before you know it no-one thinks it shoud be discussed except for where? A think tank made to discuss the topic?
Of course there is a need to promote it. The only openly gay skaters...or skater in amature competition felt his homosexuality was always being criticised, that his marks suffered, that he was told to "tone it down". That does not sound like acceptance. Just because people are "aware" of something it does not mean they accept it.
The biggest problem for gay athletes is firstly having rebut the presumption that they are straight. The second problem is dealing with the fall out of rebutting the presumption. You are far less likely to even start the process if the sport you take part in is openly homophobic. We all know that football (soccer for you non brits) is an extremely homophobic sport with no out players in the UK premiership, the one case of a gay footabller coming out ended in his suicide. If it was so "easy" to come out in FS then why haven't gay men fallen over themselves to come out while still elligible?
Wrong. Everyone "assumes" there is homosexuality in the men taking part in FS and many draw negative conclusions from it. I have yet to hear anyone alledging homosexuality in the females that take part in the sport. And just because people assume something it doesn't make then particularly aware or sympathetic.
And where is the proper forum for discussion? Homophobes do not wish to discuss it - they are very certain about how wrong it is to be homosexual, so you end up debating it with other homosexuals or people who are sympathetic to your cause.
Discrimination isn't "nice" or "fair". If homophobia is behind some of the attitudes at the USFS or the ISU, then that needs to be flushed out and ended, whether or not it happens to be convenient. The vendetta against the faceless "society" has to start somewhere and faces put on that society. The heads of the ISU and the USFA are members of "society" so why not start with that. A young skater who grows up being gay will be all to aware of who will accept that and who will rject that. If the powers that be have given that skater the impression that coming out will ruin their chancs of advancing in the sport and they decide to not come out because of that, they are to blame and they are affecting a sport because of their homosexuality. If issues of sexuality should not come into a sport, then the federations need to make sure they are not brining it into the sport through their own homophobia.
So where do you propose this noble cause starts? Somewhere where it doesn't interfere with your enjoyment of sport? Perhaps it shouldn't interfere with any part of your entertainment, so it should be on TV? Maybe it also shouldn't interfere with your work, so let's make sure we can't discuss it in the work place...so where and when do you propose would be a convenient time and place for discrimination to end?
Which would be...?
So discrimination is ok as long as the majority of society are doing so.
Why do you think FS is more accepting of homosexuality? Name one out ellgible skater? Stuggling to find one? Is that because of the oh so accepting powers that be in FS?
ONe of the most accepting organizations to homosexuality
try stonewall or any number of LGBT committees or groups. ISU of national federations encouraging skaters to stay in the closet or butch up their programs/appearence does not show acceptance, it doesn't evn show tolerance.Ant
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- Mar 14, 2006
Great post, antman. Seanibu, I must admit I am perplexed and put off by your apparent desire to shut up posters who believe that there is a problem. To disagree with them is one thing, but to argue that discussion of the issue does not belong on the boards or even in this sport is akin to censorship.
As has often been said on the boards - if you're not interested, don't read it.
As has often been said on the boards - if you're not interested, don't read it.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Seanibu - I'm surprised at how much you suck up to the establishment. After reading your take on society, figure skating, and homosexuality and reading Antman's retort, it would seem that you support that it would be best to remain closeted. That's ok for you but not for many other people.
In an economy driven lifestyle, money talks, and religion guides the leaders. Should we not complain sometimes?
Joe
In an economy driven lifestyle, money talks, and religion guides the leaders. Should we not complain sometimes?
Joe
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