Joubert's reaction to Lambiel's retirement

[Buttercup]

Well, I can say in all honesty that I WASN'T surprised when Jeff triumphed over Brian. He had already beaten Joubert convincingly in the SP with as perfect a skate as he was capable of while Brian fell.

By the time Jeffrey completed his skate, I saw it coming, too, but I didn't expect the margin, and still think it was too big. But yes, between Joubert's fall in the SP (& the resulting difference in the scores) and his not maxing his combinations in the LP, I was pretty sure he'd need some mistakes from Buttle to win it. Now, based on the latter's history, that would not have been an impossiblity, so when Brian finished, I was expecting him to win. But when Jeffrey Buttle skated cleanly and with the planned content, I knew it was a done deal.

I can still see why Joubert felt otherwise, and as I've written before, I think his reaction owed more to a disappointing season and being annoyed with the judging and the system than to anything against Jeffrey Buttle.

 

[silver.blades]

When I saw that part of Natacha's original post I had the feeling it would draw some reaction, and I'm not surprised this matter has come up again... So, at the risk of repeating myself, here goes:

Buttle and Joubert got the same level 3s for their SP and LP step sequences, and very similar GOEs (Brian's maybe a shade higher). Both did the same triple-triple combination in the LP, but Buttle did it in the first half while Brian had a wrong edge call. Buttle did have harder combos apart from that while Joubert had the quad. Brian's fall was in the SP, not the LP, but he was also the only person to land a clean quad-triple in the SP and one of only two skaters who attempted it (Stephane Lambiel being the other). I think the funny combination at the end, as someone (Ant?) suggested on another thread, may have been a Zayak thing.

The difficulty of a program is not based just on the difficulty of the individual elements though. Jeff's choreo is so intracate that there is little to no breathing room for him to gather himself for the elements he performs. Joubert's program is less packed giving him more time to concentrate on compeleating the tech. Transitions add a signifigant amount of difficulty to a program and that is something that seems to be forgotten alot.

 

[Ptichka]

sad to think sportsmanship is so devalued these days.

Toni, which do you consider the "good sportsmanship":
1. Not thinking that your loss was unfair;
or
2. Keeping your opinions on the matter to yourself?

 

[psycho]

Regardless of culture there is one major thing to come out of Brian's comments from last March regarding Jeff's win (and actions as well. That YouTube video is still up over there where Brian kicked that table and broke something back stage after seeing that Jeff beat him) to now. That is a loss of respect from many of Skating's fans.

Actually, based on my surfing of the Russian boards, the result of the last Worlds is that Brian has gained many fans. Many believe his comeback performance was a definitive performance of that competition (hard to argue), and some others feel that he was robbed. A large majority of Russian fans agrees with him abou the quad issue and even those that concede that Buttle deserved to win, they found Buttle's performance boring and a fluke from a guy who had nothing to lose. On the other hand, they view Joubert as a real fighter who moved up to almost win an even when all the leaders after the short crumbled.

Just because some people on this board have nothing better to do than pick on Brian, doesn't mean all, or even most, skating fans feel this way.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

In the U.S., I think traditionally fans most admired the "strong, silent type." If you've got something to say, say it with your blades on the ice, not with your mouth afterwards.

In the 1960s boxer Muhammad Ali came along and changed all that. He is just as famous for telling everyone how great he was as he is for being great. Nowadays many athletes in the U.S. are more entertaining for the insults against each other's mothers than for their play on the field.

:agree:

I think the words "changed all that " is the key here. And changed for much, much worse IMO. The whole idea of good sportsmanship in the US nowadays is more like a joke than anything else.

 

[Medusa]

then I guess it's sad that some cultures think temper tantrums backstage are acceptable as good sportsmanship.

Your horse appears to be even higher than mine. Really impressive.

I expected Jeff to win and was ecstatic when he did it! I was VERY surprised that Dick Button wrote Jeffrey off during the broadcast after his LP skate,

Joubert's program had a certain "YES!"-flair. I think that was the reason for Button's expectation. I don't think he doesn't like Buttle, or didn't want Buttle to win. He just had a different impression of the skate and not a sheet in front of him that told him the great spin levels Buttle got. And an intricate program is not automatically a YES!-program. Joubert got big standing ovations, as did Buttle, but during Joubert's performance there was lots of applause, it was way louder than during Buttle's performance, not only after the jumps - because it was a YES-program.

Lysacek is also a YES!-skater, as was Yagudin. They make it look like a fight, like a game where power plays an important role. The Buttles and Weirs are way more subdued, they make it look easy (e.g. Weir never seems to really jump - somehow he gets up into the air) and very fluent. Jeff's footwork is really difficult - but Joubert's seems more stirring, because of the strength and confidence that he showcases in every move.

I actually like both kind of skaters, the YES! ones and the subdued ones. And I can totally understand the people who think that Joubert won, even after Buttle's skate. It's a matter of taste and perception. And, as I said, at first you only see the skate, perhaps you don't even count the combos and have no idea what levels the skater gets for other elements.

 

[Tonichelle]

Toni, which do you consider the "good sportsmanship":
1. Not thinking that your loss was unfair;
or
2. Keeping your opinions on the matter to yourself?

It's a grey area, sure. But I think throwing a fit and insulting other competitors because of a judges decision gets no where. I get that in the heat of the moment we all do angry things, but it's the same feeling with Nancy Kerrigan's comment caught after Oksana won in 94, or Surya Bonali's many less than stellar moments (taking her medal off on the podium, saying screw it and throwing in a backflip a few years later)...

the difference here is it's Joubert and so it's seemingly okay because it's a guy and they're somehow allowed to be a little more vocal and rude. I don't think it's so much a culture thing. Girls are supposed to be sweet and demure.

Do we really need a discussion of whether some cultures are better than others, even on a matter this minor? I recall something similar a few months ago, and I would much rather not go there.

I don't think I'm arguing cultures. I was being sarcastic. I don't think blaming a culture for Joubert's attitude gains anything. I wasn't the one saying his reactions are based on culture. I would hope and do believe that certain episodes/outbursts are based solely on Joubert and not where he comes from. There are unsportsmanlike people in every culture/country. the US has just as many as anywhere else, I'm not implying we're any better.

 

[dancingqueen]

I’m not a big fan of either of them Joubert and Buttle but I like them both. I think they are both good people.

And I don’t have thoughts “ things should be this way, that way “ based on one’s own beliefs. I try to avoid that kind of thinking.

If I think from Buttle’s situation, I imagine it’s quite hurtful what Joubert said in press conference last Worlds. It may be hurt to hear the comments “ quad less world champion“ or “ didn’t do the most difficult technical element”. Buttle received the winning result based on how he performed. Buttle worked hard and did what he could do, and didn’t expect to win.

If I think from Joubert‘s perspective, he also worked hard, and he thinks doing quad is a required element to be a world champion. And so for him, it’s frustrating to see a skater win without quad which he thinks is the most difficult element. For me, Joubert is hilarious. I don't take him so seriously. Because I don't feel any hate or mean spirit from him. Just he is a fierce competitor.

I’ve also heard that Morosov taught Daisuke that to be a world champion, doing two quads in FP is required. So Daisuke had also been training hard to do quads. Daisuke accepted his result without complain though.

I think with the present judging system, skaters may need to give up something to keep winning, either quad or full content or a lot of choreography or high level of spins and footwork, or etc. . If skaters try everything now, they get health problems. I think Lambiel was doing everything in 2006 worlds with close to clean programs, and since then, his health condition was getting worse and worse.

Buttle also challenged to be like that with full content with full of choreography, and while he was challenging quad with the full package, he hadn’t skated clean.

Personally, I loved Joubert’s FP the most at last worlds, even artistically also. ( I think his artistry improved a lot compared with before ). PCS is subjective, and I enjoyed Joubert’s performance more than Buttle’s even though I know Buttle was excellent with full of choreography. But maybe emotional level or energy level, I was more impressed with Joubert’s FP even though he was not perfect.

I can not find any reason why I got bored with Buttle’s performances, but my heart didn't move while watching his performances. I don’t see him as a subtle skater at all. This is just my personal taste. nothing against Buttle.
And I could see it was clear Buttle's win at last worlds. But the most impressive performances there were different story for me,

Choreography may be important but it’s not the most important when it comes to artistry for me.

About Joubert’s comment for Lambiel’s retirement, I thought he was just upset to lose his main rival and I didn’t take it negative way. I think Joubert is practical to get to his goal, so he may not understand why Lambiel was attending many galas. But I think Lambiel had a good reason to attend many galas including financial reasons.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

He does? At least not when it comes to fans. He's friendly, he's unbelievably patient and kind and all, even if it's pretty late and it's been a long day & a bad SP, and there is a car waiting for him outside. Not being a fan, I was impressed to see him like that on more than one occasion.

Oh he's lovely with his fans, it's just when he's angry, he really is! (for example, his reaction at the 08 worlds!)

 

[Buttercup]

I don't think I'm arguing cultures. I was being sarcastic. I don't think blaming a culture for Joubert's attitude gains anything. I wasn't the one saying his reactions are based on culture. I would hope and do believe that certain episodes/outbursts are based solely on Joubert and not where he comes from. There are unsportsmanlike people in every culture/country. the US has just as many as anywhere else, I'm not implying we're any better.

My computer decided to misbehave right after you posted so I couldn't respond right away. I don't think culture is the sole reason for Joubert's behavior, and I agree it would have been better had he not gotten so angry at Worlds. I'm referring more to the content of his comments in general, both arounf the time of Worlds and at other times.

Have you ever seen the movie Bull Durham? In one scene, they try to teach one of the pitchers all the sports cliches a professional athlete is supposed to use in interviews - you know, taking it one day at a time, we really want to go out and give it our best effort, etc. It's pretty funny. I don't think Brian Joubert's interviews are like that, and he can be almost brutally honest.

I believe what Ptichka was getting at, and what I was tryng to echo, is that some in cultures, more of an emphasis is placed on honesty while in others, being diplomatic and saying the right things are stressed instead. Thus, what will be defined as being sportsmanlike may differ.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Regardless of the behaviours of the contestants, the bottom line is that 'who was the best that night?'

When I'm in the mood for off ice behaviour, I'll read about it. I find it cunning in most cases.

Both Jeff and Brian are elite skaters, and arguably, they skated their best ever LPs. I would give the decision to Jeff. Others can disagree, but it won't change my percetion of the performances. That's me. I can also disagree with the judges when I think they messed up. That's me. I don't even agree that judges , because they passed some sort of test, are infallible. And how often do you see unanimous agreement of the judges?

The Sport is 95% opinion. Over and Out.

 

[Buttercup]

Joe, I'm not sure it was Joubert's best LP ever. It was exciting, I enjoyed it more than Buttle's, but he wasn't in top shape and it showed, especially towards the end. I think he's probably done better at least once or twice with The Matrix, and there was that 3-quad performance at CoR (his PB for an LP).

So I did enjoy one more, but I'm not sure who was best on the night - they were such different programs. I will allow that Jeffrey Buttle was clearly the best skater of the competition.

I think judges aren't unanimous but the variance on PCS and on GOEs is usually not too large. Conspiracy theorists would probably say that's collusion

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Buttercup - I have seen Brian's improvement in versatility in the Quebec GP, and various youtubes of shows this season. He has definitely improved in the performance part of his skating. He is no Kurt Browning by any means but so much better than the robot (imo) he once was.

I did enjoy the Matrix in the Dortmund Worlds but the style was Robotic which he did well and continued with that style until I saw him in Quebec. I see it as maturity and I am liking his skating more and more. He's a contender for GOLD.

Regardless of the variations in the scores, I think the PCS are opinions. All the technical elements have a definition to reach the base value, but the GoEs are definitely opinions and they are carried over into the PCS. I'm all for one score as it is in Diving.

I value all opinions if they are not connected to bias.

 

[Tonichelle]

I believe what Ptichka was getting at, and what I was tryng to echo, is that some in cultures, more of an emphasis is placed on honesty while in others, being diplomatic and saying the right things are stressed instead. Thus, what will be defined as being sportsmanlike may differ.

Being honest is al well and good, I don't mind the honesty... but it's the tone in which one is "being honest"... condescending tones say more about the person himself and not the event he's talking about... yes this is an "American viewpoint" but it's still a "human" viewpoint. I don't like it when Evan or Johnny pull that crap in the media either. Okay, we get that you think the sun doesn't rise until you get out of bed in the morning. Good for you. Now, let's look at things objectively.

It's like these men are trying to overcompensate for being in this sport, and they shouldn't. I don't know, but all of this puffing out our chests is just annoying. That being said, it seems every sport has its fair share (T. Owens (?) in football got that label early on) doesn't make it right - just acceptable.

And, again, it's this double standard that Brian has. He complains about technical difficulty when he's really not attempting that much more (oh, sure, on PAPER he's attempting a heck of a lot more, but just like everyone else he's not delivering.). Then when Stephane or Jeff or really any of his competitors pulls out because of injury he suggests they just don't "have the heart" anymore or something similar. But if he skates poorly or pulls out due to injury we're expected to be understanding. Can't have your cake and eat it too (but then again he seems to). Guess I'm just not into his playboy type attitude.

I've never been into his skating - like his Matrix routine, but even that (as Joe has said) was more of a 'look, I can be like Yagudin' than anything else. I honestly didn't like or dislike him, but the more he got to 'be himself' the less I cared to watch him outside the competition. That being said I've heard he is very kind to his fans, and so he's not all bad... he just plays one on TV

 

[Mathman]

My computer decided to misbehave right after you posted so I couldn't respond right away.

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

Just when I am in the middle of a ferocious debate and have thought of the brilliant coup de grace that will totally annihilate my oponent, ... pffft!

 

[Buttercup]

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

Just when I am in the middle of a ferocious debate and have thought of the brilliant coup de grace that will totally annihilate my oponent, ... pffft!

Quite true! It's the computer monitor I have at home - it has gone crazy and is not cooperating with me. I'm hoping to have a new one soon. But I've no desire to annihilate anyone, even if they don't like Brian Joubert .

Tonichelle, I don't recall Joubert accusing other skaters of faking injuries, though I have heard this suggestion made before so maybe I just missed it. But Stephane himself has said in the past (2007 season?) that his heart wasn't in it, didn't he? The difficulty thing, well, we know Joubert thinks it's the quads, and while one can certainly disagree, it is true that there are skaters who can do them but choose not to, especially in SPs. FWIW, his Wikipedia page says he got into figure skating because a. he liked the jumps and b. couldn't do contact sports because he had a kidney removed as a baby. I have no idea how accurate that is.

I think if you look at Joubert's older programs, he's really improved his presentation. It used to be mostly showmanship, and I feel there's much more to his skating now. He'll never be the most graceful or musical guy on the ice, but he's made a real effort, which is to his credit. I think he expects other skaters to make an effort to work on their weaker areas, too.

 

[Hsuhs]

A bit OT.
Evan's reaction to Lambiel's and Buttle's retirement:

I am good friends with both Jeff and Stéphane, and I think they are both very happy with their decisions. As a friend, all I want for them is to be happy. They have both left a very impressive legacy in skating. They are two of my favorite skaters to watch, and I will continue to admire and respect them

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081020&content_id=53650&vkey=ice_news

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I for one love Joubert's attitude. I don't have a problem with someone being upset when they lose. I don't have a problem with someone reacting poorly when they've been told that in order to win you need a quad. I don't have a problem with someone fighting to get better, fighting to compete and then watching someone else win. I don't have a problem with competitive athletes. I think there's a difference between good sportsmanship and being a good loser. Brian simply isn't a good loser and that's cool because he shouldn't be something he's not - be yourself, be true to yourself - isn't that what we tell kids everyday?

My son is a horrible loser - he cries, kicks and screams - (and yes, it is a bit much & yes, I always wonder if people think I'm a bad mother as my 11 year old loses it) but he tends not to lose a lot and I think his competitve drive has something to do with that - he doesn't turn it inward, but outward and the soccer team who beat his will pay the next time. (his words, not mine: "they will pay!") But he's always shocked when the next game comes and he finds out that his counterpart has moved on to football or track. "What? What do you mean he doesn't paly soccer anymore? I wanna beat him!" I just read Brian's reaction the same way... Competitve and impulsive with a strong need to win. That's not bad sportsmanship, that's just how some athletes are. Can't there be room for all?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's all about how yin and yang perceive the sport. If it were all about men's interest there would be harsh words of verbal interaction. However, since figure skating is more on the women's side it tends to have sensitivity as an issue.

 

[lcd]

Remember the horribly awkward attempts by NBC to try to make hay out of the Evan v. Johnny rivalry at Nationals last year? Ugh....