Judging controversy

[sussweden]

I totally disagree with you here kitty. Flaring up a program with facial movements such as smiling (when it is appropriate), eye movements, being happy and even sad at times, if it helps sell the program then it enhances the value of the program. I believe choreography goes alot deeper then properly timed arm waves and crossovers that land on the beat of the music. Skaters with great charisma on the ice are what I love. As I stated, they should sell the program as much as they can, and should therefore be rewarded for those spunky movements, they may not be things they do with their skates but they unquestionably increase the overall performance value.

totally agree, and what about seeing the worlds and results before starting to discuss politics etc in skating judging

/Lena

 

[chuckm]

My comments on collusion are all based on what I observed the judges doing during the Junior Grand Prix events (and the JGPF), where the identities of the judges were not concealed. It became immediately obvious that:

1. Judges from former SSRs always gave the highest marks and the most +GOE to the top Russian team. That was true even if the SSR judge had a team from his/her own country in the competition. Often these judges also placed the #2 and/or #3 Russian team higher than teams who actually skated better.

2. Eastern European judges tended to place the top Russian team(s) ahead of other teams even when they weren't superior. Then they placed the other teams relative to their performance.

3. Other judges (Western European, North American, Far Eastern, Australian, etc.) would tend to favor their own teams to some extent, but not necessarily to place them on top. The Russian teams were usually placed where they belonged--sometimes on top, sometimes not.

The Junior Grand Prix events were an eye-opener. Now when I see an Ice Dance competition where there are 3 or more SSR judges and balance of the panel is tilted towards SSR/Eastern Europe, the outcome of the competition is fairly predictable. For Worlds, there is a potential for the OD/FD panel to have as many as 5 SSRs. Should the panel wind up with 4 or more, be prepared for Dom/Shabs to be the new World Champions.

 

[R.D.]

rofl at this whole thread- skating has GOT to find a way to ditch the judges and make everything objective. I think if the Cop was perfect and the "judges" (should be simply "refs" now) did what they were SUPPOSED to do there would be no subjectivity on the technical part. It's all in the "presentation" (or I suppose here it's called the "PCS"). That will remain subjective as different styles of skating appeal to different people. Oh, what do we do about THAT.

 

[iloveaxel]

rofl at this whole thread- skating has GOT to find a way to ditch the judges and make everything objective. I think if the Cop was perfect and the "judges" (should be simply "refs" now) did what they were SUPPOSED to do there would be no subjectivity on the technical part. It's all in the "presentation" (or I suppose here it's called the "PCS"). That will remain subjective as different styles of skating appeal to different people. Oh, what do we do about THAT.

To believe there's no subjectivity in technical part is daydreaming. First of all, when you compare skaters' no-jump elements from competition to competition, you will find huge discrepancy. Usually this is not so obvious to very top skaters, since most of their elements are graded level 3/4 no matter what. But for a medium ranged skater, the discrepancy is eye openning.

Second, the judges will toss out GOE +2 to an elite skater like there is no tomorrow. I have not read 4cc protocols, but heard most of Buttle's jumps received +2 including simple jump like 3sal. This is truly ridiculous. How much better is Buttle than lots of other skaters doing those simple triples??? Judges are just playing the games to hold him up.

 

[sussweden]

Where can I see these protocolls where they are showing the judges? Would be interesting.

/Lena

 

[R.D.]

To believe there's no subjectivity in technical part is daydreaming. First of all, when you compare skaters' no-jump elements from competition to competition, you will find huge discrepancy. Usually this is not so obvious to very top skaters, since most of their elements are graded level 3/4 no matter what. But for a medium ranged skater, the discrepancy is eye openning.

And I agree with you. I was saying if the system was PERFECT and the judges WEREN'T "judges" but basically "referees" to identify and quantify the jumps/spins/etc., there would be no subjectivity- in the TECHNICAL mark. I think that's what the ISU eventually wants to have, but as we can see there's still a loooooong way to go.

 

[mylastduchess]

I just seen Lysachek skate, I'm I the only person who saw that the quad was obviously underotated?

 

[chuckm]

Where can I see these protocolls where they are showing the judges? Would be interesting.

/Lena

First, go to any Junior Grand Prix event:

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgpfra2006/

This is the Courchevel event.

Click on the "Panel of Judges" for the Ice Dance event (this is for the OD):

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgpfra2006/SEG006OF.HTM

This lists the judges from #1 through #9.

Now click on the Judges Scores (pdf) for the OD:

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgpfra2006/jgpfra06_IceDancing_OD_Scores.pdf

You will see the judges' scores listed as J1, J2, J3, J4, etc. for each team.
Check out both the GOEs and the PCS scores.

Then compare them based on skater/judge federation and see the intrigue. Do a few different JGP Events. Some events are judged better than others.

Finally, do the JGPF Ice Dance protocols. That is most interesting of all.

Don't be surprised to find that all judges will be somewhat biased in favor of teams from their own country. But you will also be able to detect certain 'alliances' quite apart from home country preferences.


NOTE: you can do this ONLY for the Junior Grand Prix. For all other ISU events, the Judge numbers on protocol are random and do not relate to the judges' numbers on the Panel listing.

 

[evenstar]

The quad was questionable, but it looked pretty good.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

My comments on collusion are all based on what I observed the judges doing during the Junior Grand Prix events (and the JGPF), where the identities of the judges were not concealed. It became immediately obvious that:

1. Judges from former SSRs always gave the highest marks and the most +GOE to the top Russian team. That was true even if the SSR judge had a team from his/her own country in the competition. Often these judges also placed the #2 and/or #3 Russian team higher than teams who actually skated better.

It's all for Mother Russia. Not for figure skating.

3. Other judges (Western European, North American, Far Eastern, Australian, etc.) would tend to favor their own teams to some extent, but not necessarily to place them on top. The Russian teams were usually placed where they belonged--sometimes on top, sometimes not.

However they will favor their own individually but they will NOT gang up for one.

Should the panel wind up with 4 or more, be prepared for Dom/Shabs to be the new World Champions.

Didn't we already see this at 2002 Worlds Ladies Division?

Joe

 

[blue dog]

Do you have a country breakdown of judges at the upcoming worlds? I am VERY annoyed that countries such as Austria, Slovenia and a couple of ex-Soviet countries who have never produced elite skaters continue to get on the judges panel every time. You can imagine what scores these guys are going to toss out if the competition is between an Euro skater(s) and a North American or Asian skater(s).

This is very UNFAIR.

Dear, those countries DON'T.

The way to get judges on the panel is if your country is in the top 20. Then they select the fourteen (or is it eighteen?) randomly.

At any rate, to prevent "bias" and "overscoring" perhaps we should have one another's judges judge one another's nationals and continental championships (ie- Canadian judges judge Japanese nationals, and European judges judge 4CC)...

Wait, that is already in place (NA and Asian judges already judge at Euros-or, at least, used to during 6.0)

I think this all boiled down to, again, two skaters who are very different--one is technical, the other, artistic. When the technician won, the fans of the artist whined and cried judge collusion (although I don't know how there could be a US bloc that is against Canada and vice versa). Of course, the same would've happened had the technician missed his jumps, and the artist won...

 

[chuckm]

But Irina deserved to win the 2002 Worlds gold medal. If you recall, Kwan nearly missed the 2A and was 3rd in the SP behind Fumie, and she could only have won the title if Kwan won the FS and Fumie beat Irina. Irina's FS was her best of the season, and there was no way that anyone was going to beat it.

Ice Dancing is another whole thing. Domnina/Shabalin are good ice dancers, but the best in the world? I don't think so. I don't think they are better than Den/Sta, DelShoes, Dubreuil/Lauzon and B/A. Their FD is wild and sloppy, and their elements aren't more difficult than the other teams. They have pretty much been the beneficiaries of being the #1 Russian team and since they are the only possibility of a Russian medal at Worlds this year, the Russians are politicking very, very hard for them. Mark my words, they WILL be on the World podium this year, and they have more than a 50/50 chance to be on top of it.

 

[chuckm]

Here are the judges for Worlds:

MEN:
SP panel: Belarus, Bulgaria, Germany, Israel, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovak Republic, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, USA.
FS panel: Canada, France, Great Britain, Slovenia plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

LADIES:
SP panel: Austria, China, Croatia, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Korea, Romania, Slovak Republic, Sweden, Turkey, USA.
FS panel: Finland, France, Japan, Russia, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

PAIRS:
Austria, Bugaria, Canada, China, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan plus additional judge(s) from the Singles panels.

ICE DANCE:
CD: Australia, Azerbaijan, Canada, China, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan
OD and FD: Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Japan, Lithuania, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the CD panel.

For Ice Dance, the possibility exists that there could be 5 SSR judges on the panel: Lithuania (certain); plus Azerbaijan, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan. With a Bulgarian judge definitely on the OD/FD panel, the possibilities for a deal being struck for the Bulgarians to win the championship with the Russians second is extremely likely.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But Irina deserved to win the 2002 Worlds gold medal. If you recall, Kwan nearly missed the 2A and was 3rd in the SP behind Fumie, and she could only have won the title if Kwan won the FS and Fumie beat Irina. Irina's FS was her best of the season, and there was no way that anyone was going to beat it..

That may be, but what I was driving at was that when Button was questioned about the chances of Kwan winning, he laughed and said "Not with this Panel of Judges". It did't matter who skated better or worse, it was in the judges hands and it was going to be Slutskaya, no matter what.

I don;t know what Bluedog knows. But if it's true about the top 20, is Kazahkastan(sp), Uzbekistan(sp), etc. still in the mix for judging?

Joe

 

[blue dog]

That may be, but what I was driving at was that when Button was questioned about the chances of Kwan winning, he laughed and said "Not with this Panel of Judges". It did't matter who skated better or worse, it was in the judges hands and it was going to be Slutskaya, no matter what.

I don;t know what Bluedog knows. But if it's true about the top 20, is Kazahkastan(sp), Uzbekistan(sp), etc. still in the mix for judging?

Joe

Back in the 6.0 days the top 12 got to nominate...and nine were selected. Now, I think they've expanded to twenty since they need fourteen?

 

[sussweden]

I think this all boiled down to, again, two skaters who are very different--one is technical, the other, artistic. When the technician won, the fans of the artist whined and cried judge collusion (although I don't know how there could be a US bloc that is against Canada and vice versa). Of course, the same would've happened had the technician missed his jumps, and the artist won...

Sure something like this yes, but still I at least want it to be both technically difficult and artistic and if you get high technical marks becasue you deserve them I believe you should get high pcs if you deserve them (not falling, just skating beatifully with transitions and maybe some doubble jump that doesn´t disturb the flow etc) but this is not what I see. I think Joe had a good suggestion about judges. And what we seem to think is artistic and not, seem to vary if you´re from North America or Europe, at least that´s how I see it. So we need judges from different countries.

Thanks for the info on protocolls

There is a page on panel of judges even at senior comps there is no nationality though but guessing maybe...

I still want to see the actual comp before talking about anything. And then guess reading more about rules

/Lena

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Here are the judges for Worlds:

MEN:
SP panel: Belarus, Bulgaria, Germany, Israel, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovak Republic, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, USA.
FS panel: Canada, France, Great Britain, Slovenia plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

LADIES:
SP panel: Austria, China, Croatia, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Korea, Romania, Slovak Republic, Sweden, Turkey, USA.
FS panel: Finland, France, Japan, Russia, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

PAIRS:
Austria, Bugaria, Canada, China, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan plus additional judge(s) from the Singles panels.

ICE DANCE:
CD: Australia, Azerbaijan, Canada, China, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan
OD and FD: Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Japan, Lithuania, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the CD panel.

For Ice Dance, the possibility exists that there could be 5 SSR judges on the panel: Lithuania (certain); plus Azerbaijan, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan. With a Bulgarian judge definitely on the OD/FD panel, the possibilities for a deal being struck for the Bulgarians to win the championship with the Russians second is extremely likely.

It would seem of the known judges for each event there will be:
Men: 7 Eastern European judges. 4 Western European judges . 2 N.American judges. No Asian judges and where do Germany, Israel, S.Africa stand? Germany may still have Stasi judges Israel will more than likely have former Russian judges, and S.Africa - who knows.

Ladies 6 Eastern Euros; 4 Western Euros; 1 N.American; 3 Asian; and Finland (usually goes for Russian style) and Turkey (don't know)

For dance: Will the toe tapper now in Israel be there?

It seems to me that all the divisions are heavily weighted with Eastern European judges. There will be no collusion that I can think of, but there may well be a social obligation.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

Speaking of judges, I know Mme. LeGougne cannot judge for a long time, but are the following "questionable" judges still on the circuit?

Yuriy Balkov (UKR)
Alfred Korytek (UKR...then moved to ISR)
Katalin Alpern (HUN...then moved to ISR)
Alla Piseeva (RUS)
Cia Bogdona (ITA)

 

[chuckm]

Balkov, Korytek and Alpern are all active on the judging circuit. If either Korytek or Alpern judges for Israel in Tokyo, you may as well add them to the 'Eastern' column. And Balkov always goes with the SSR flow.

If by "Alla Piseeva" you mean Alla Shekhovtseva (Piseev's wife), yes, she too is still active, judging for Russia. In fact, she was extremely active in the GP this season:
Skate America: Judged Ladies and Ice Dance
Cup of China: Judged Men and Ice Dance
CoR: Technical Controller, Ice Dance
NHK: Technical Controller, Ice Dance
GPF: Judged Ice Dance
She also judged Europeans Ice Dance
Mrs. Piseev judged at every competition (except Karl Schafer) at which Domnina/Shabalin competed . I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her at Worlds.

Katalin Alpern Was the Technical Controller for Ice Dance at Karl Schafer, Judged Ice Dance at Cup of China,
was the Referee for Ice Dance at TEB, was the Technical Controller for Ice Dance at JGP Hungary, and judged Ice Dance at Europeans

Yuri Balkov was active in the JGP, judging Ice Dance at JGP Hungary, JGP Romania and JGP Netherlands. He also judged Ice Dance at Europeans.

Alred Korytek judged Pairs and Men at JGP Hungary,

 

[gkelly2]

For Ice Dance, the possibility exists that there could be 5 SSR judges on the panel: Lithuania (certain); plus Azerbaijan, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan. With a Bulgarian judge definitely on the OD/FD panel, the possibilities for a deal being struck for the Bulgarians to win the championship with the Russians second is extremely likely.

With so many SSR judges and only 1 bulgarian, this deal looks impossible...unfortunately the deal russian first so that the bulgarian to be second sound much more reasonable to me... But knowing about the rumours about the canadians, what should the deal look like there? :scratch:

P.S. In the other disciplines people are doing the math with the scores from jumps and ect, and in ice dancing- the math from the judging deals, what a pitiful reality