Judging controversy

[Mathman]

I rather see the comp first and then complain

But then it's too late! If you do your complaining first, then afterward you get to say, "I told you so!"

 

[gio]

Here are the judges for Worlds:

MEN:
SP panel: Belarus, Bulgaria, Germany, Israel, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovak Republic, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, USA.
FS panel: Canada, France, Great Britain, Slovenia plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

LADIES:
SP panel: Austria, China, Croatia, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Korea, Romania, Slovak Republic, Sweden, Turkey, USA.
FS panel: Finland, France, Japan, Russia, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the 12 SP judges.

PAIRS:
Austria, Bugaria, Canada, China, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan plus additional judge(s) from the Singles panels.

ICE DANCE:
CD: Australia, Azerbaijan, Canada, China, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, USA, Uzbekistan
OD and FD: Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Japan, Lithuania, plus 8 judges randomly selected from the CD panel.

So, in Ice Dance we have France, Canada, USA, Russia and Bulgaria that want to medal.
It's easy for Russia to win this discipline, since Russia has judges in all disciplines. They can easily bargain with the Chinese or the Germans helping them in Pairs (gold to Germany or China). With Italy helping Carolina (in the top 5). With Israel for a better placement of Tamar Katz (between 15th-20th place). They can deal with Japan in Ladies and Men. What about a deal to place the Canadian Ice Dance team in second place in exchange for a medal for Buttle?

-Judges that could favor Domnina/Shabalin are Azerbaijan, Canada, China or Germany, Italy, Israel, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Japan and Lithuania.
-Judges against them could be Bulgaria, Czech Republic (Bulgaria can favor Verner in Men), China or Germany, Australia and USA

 

[redhotcoach]

I think that influencing the judges by country is becoming increasingly more difficult under the CoP system. Judges still have to rationalize their component scores - if out of whack they will stand out.

Canada has taken a step that others countries should follow, if they haven't already. The new president of Skate Canada announced last year that more judges will have the chance to share in the high profile judging assisgnments. IN other words, the same small group of judges that always seem to get Olympics, Worlds, Grand Prix assignments, etc....will no longer get those plum jobs. All qualified judges from Canada will share in the assignments, which in the end will give more Canadians exposure and international experience --- and reduce the chance of them forming alliances or being influenced.

Like a handful of Smarties - you'll never know what mix you'll get until the event instead of the same group every time.

 

[chuckm]

Who sits on judging panels is controlled by the ISU technical committee. The Canadian Dore sits on that committee as does a Russian.

If that means Canadian judges will have a wealth of opportunity, then we will see new Canadian faces on judging panels, but not new anyone else, and there can only be ONE Canadian judge on a panel. Unless Canada now controls what goes on in the ISU back rooms. In which case reserving Ice Dance gold for Canada begins to make sense, but ugly sense.

 

[gkelly2]

Who sits on judging panels is controlled by the ISU technical committee. The Canadian Dore sits on that committee as does a Russian.

If that means Canadian judges will have a wealth of opportunity, then we will see new Canadian faces on judging panels, but not new anyone else, and there can only be ONE Canadian judge on a panel. Unless Canada now controls what goes on in the ISU back rooms. In which case reserving Ice Dance gold for Canada begins to make sense, but ugly sense.

And what is the chance that Canada controls the ISU back rooms and how is this possible?
Edit: I saw the member list .Now all the rumours about reserving the tittle for D/L make 100% sense-
2nd Vice President
Figure Skating: David Dore Canada

 

[sussweden]

Why do I feel this is only about Russia playing some game what about US or any other country doing so... as for dance, deep clean edges and good posture and precise movements are important and this it what Russians usually are very good at and place them high at least in CD.

/Lena

 

[Spun Silver]

PLEASE forgive me for not reviewing this entire thread. How can it be that there are no Asian judges for the Men? That just seems wrong.

 

[SeaniBu]

How can it be that there are no Asian judges for the Men? That just seems wrong.

:agree: Why?????! Is it discrimination or lack of judging participants from Asia? It just doesn't make sense there are no Asian judges.

 

[gio]

Why do I feel this is only about Russia playing some game what about US or any other country doing so... as for dance, deep clean edges and good posture and precise movements are important and this it what Russians usually are very good at and place them high at least in CD.

/Lena

I think because Russia is very influent in FS and it was involved in the Salt Lake City cheating. Another factor is that a lot of fans here come from the USA, so they blame Russia for most of it. I think if the majority of the members in the forum were Russians they would blame the USA judges.
My opinion is that judges cheat regardless of their nationality.

Anyway I think that Russia is the most influent, so it is easier for Russian judges to cheat.

 

[Mathman]

About Asian judges, it's just the luck of the the draw, right? There are are only a couple of Asian countries eligible, and their names didn't happen to come out of the hat this time. Neither did Norway, Austria or Croatia.

 

[SeaniBu]

This makes me believe the "draw" is not the best way to go about selecting judges. Although I hate to say I don't like something and not come up with a suitable alternative, I must say random leaves too much possibility for "unfair" advantages. I think a different plan should be instated for selection of the judges.

 

[Mathman]

Another factor is that a lot of fans here come from the USA, so they blame Russia for most of it.

Still, I think there really is a difference in cultural attitudes toward cheating at sports.

The dominant political culture in the ISU says that the purpose of National Federations is to get medals for their athletes. Didier Gailhauget said absolutely flat out that the reason that he makes deals is because of this duty to get medals for French skaters and France would never win any medals at all if he didn't make deals. It comes with the territory of being President of a National Federation. Always has, always will.

In other words, cheating at sports really isn't cheating, cheating is the sport.

I really do believe that, in comparison with fans in other countries, Americans are naive about this. We recoil in horror when the American Tour de France winner is charge with doping. Everyone else laughs at us -- of course everyone is the sport is doping, you silly Americans.

 

[SeaniBu]

I really do believe that, in comparison with fans in other countries, Americans are naive about this. We recoil in horror when the American Tour de France winner is charge with doping. Everyone else laughs at us -- of course everyone is the sport is doping, you silly Americans.

:agree:

 

[R.D.]

So according to your comments I suppose it's not necessarily cheating, but getting CAUGHT cheating that is the concern?

 

[Mathman]

So according to your comments I suppose it's not necessarily cheating, but getting CAUGHT cheating that is the concern?

That was certainly the case at Salt Lake City. Cinquanta and Co. were absolutely livid that Mm. Le Gougne spilled the beans. So much so that they came up with the New Judging System, with it's anonymity feature, just to guarantee that they wouldn't be caught next time.

 

[R.D.]

But as we see, that's not gonna stop fans from making a stink out of controversial or seemingly shady results.

 

[blue dog]

To quote one of my favourite pre-teen movies--

It's not about cheating; it's about winning!

Gailhaguet made deals because he knew that if his skaters won medals, then his federation would get more money...which meant more money for him in the end.

Sean, perhaps a better alternative to having judges selected out of a hat would be to draw from a pool of 200 individuals who are deemed qualified to judge. They arrive at a contest at least a day before, and kind of like how juries are selected for court trials. We will have a selection process that narrows it down to the 14 that is needed per event--and yes, they will be rotated, and will be required to have a thorough knowledge of their event.

 

[SeaniBu]

Sean, perhaps a better alternative to having judges selected out of a hat would be to draw from a pool of 200 individuals who are deemed qualified to judge. They arrive at a contest at least a day before, and kind of like how juries are selected for court trials. We will have a selection process that narrows it down to the 14 that is needed per event--and yes, they will be rotated, and will be required to have a thorough knowledge of their event.

I don't know how feasible because of money only, but I like the idea from the fair standpoint. - to add to this because it spawned the thought. How about 3-5 judges that are not from the fed of the skaters they are judging - ever. You can't judge a skater from your federation ever in a world event. And No one knows who will be picked prior to the events?

I often think about polygraph machines monitoring their nerves It sounds kinda silly of me, but I think there are ways to stop the idea even before it starts of a judge not submitting fairly. In regards to judging I think there are a number of things that could happen to improve the "integrity" issue by 3 times. Some I have Ideas and some I don't.

The first thing I really wish could happen is they get payed. That way it eliminates the "out of the goodness of my own heart" factor they may use to justify their "paddings."

Post interviews regarding their scores submitted - another point for the polygraph. This I think is still contingent on their getting payed to justify.

Realtime scoreboard / scoring, they have got one thing to do while the skate is happening, -3 to a +3 with 10 seconds to submit. If this is to difficult for them they should not be a judge. I don't like the fact they can enter when they want.

Blaa blaa w/Sean again, but I think most can agree there are definintly improvments that could / need to be made to judging. But I don't see how it is that hard other than have money issues. ????? Isn't this what these federation people are doing for a living. We are just "chatting" about it. ????

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Why do I feel this is only about Russia playing some game what about US or any other country doing so... as for dance, deep clean edges and good posture and precise movements are important and this it what Russians usually are very good at and place them high at least in CD.

/Lena

It's not important for the United States to have a big win in figure skating. It is for Russia.

Those qualities you mentioned for good dance technique are seen in all top teams from whereever.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

The Russians have always been involved in dealmaking because they have so many judges under their hegemony. These include judges from former SSR countries who once judged under the banner of the USSR, and judges loaned to former SSRs, like the Armenian, Uzbek and Azerbaijani judges, who are actually Russians. It's easy to get judges from other countries to back their skaters because they control so many judges who can back another federation's skater(s). When there is a possibility of 4 or 5 former SSR judges on a panel, the whole illusion of fairness goes right out the window.

.