Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[4everchan]

Any GP medal > Olympic team medal

if you say so. I'd like to know what the athletes themselves would say about that. I doubt they would agree with you. For instance, look at the Canadian golden team.... pretty much all of them had GP gold... some GPF gold... and still.. it was so darn important that they won the team event in 2018.

BTW.. just because I was curious.. .did you know that Gabby Daleman never won a GP medal, YET, she won bronze at worlds. What do you make of that ? Of course, she is also an Olympic champion, whether you think the team event is garbage or not.

 

[NanaPat]

I rhought the team event was invented so Russian skaters could win an additional gold medal in Sochi. Plushenko seemed to think the team medal was worth something; he wanted to skate in the team event but not the individual one.

 

[lariko]

I like team events, though I prefer the Junior Olympics format where the teams are mixed. The Japanese tournament is great, as well as Russian own team event. Milan is going to be wild with (hopefully) more teams qualifying and results not being a foregone conclusion. It really lets the same skaters have more disciplines to compete in, chances to win a medal, an incentive to develop all 4 disciplines and keeps spectators in a warm field house instead of freezing their butts off outside... like, it does a lot of good. If they only added a jumping tournament to the Oly we'd have even more FS content!

 

[4everchan]

I like team events, though I prefer the Junior Olympics format where the teams are mixed.

the teams are no longer mixed if you are talking about Youth Olympics.

The Japanese tournament is great, as well as Russian own team event. Milan is going to be wild with (hopefully) more teams qualifying and results not being a foregone conclusion. It really lets the same skaters have more disciplines to compete in, chances to win a medal, an incentive to develop all 4 disciplines and keeps spectators in a warm field house instead of freezing their butts off outside... like, it does a lot of good. If they only added a jumping tournament to the Oly we'd have even more FS content!

 

[lariko]

the teams are no longer mixed if you are talking about Youth Olympics.

Aww, that's sad. I liked mixed teams

 

[4everchan]

Aww, that's sad. I liked mixed teams

it was fun but if you consider the development of the sport, having national teams forces feds to promote pairs and dance too, from a young age. Canada won bronze exactly because they had a good young pair team.

 

[el henry]

it was fun but if you consider the development of the sport, having national teams forces feds to promote pairs and dance too, from a young age. Canada won bronze exactly because they had a good young pair team.

The mixed teams did help development in one specific instance though: my beloved UtaShin. They won gold at the Youth OG mixed event. Never would have done so individually. Until then, JSF paid them little heed, after that, more resources.

But I admit that was geared to one team and not a general discipline.

 

[lariko]

it was fun but if you consider the development of the sport, having national teams forces feds to promote pairs and dance too, from a young age. Canada won bronze exactly because they had a good young pair team.

Yes, I understand that, but like, in youth groups, I felt cooperation and friendship could be more important than fostering national rivalry. Olympic senior is like a major show case. If they added it to the Worlds, probably would have to be nation vs nation too.

 

[4everchan]

The mixed teams did help development in one specific instance though: my beloved UtaShin. They won gold at the Youth OG mixed event. Never would have done so individually. Until then, JSF paid them little heed, after that, more resources.

But I admit that was geared to one team and not a general discipline.

I don't know if that medal is really what helped them as opposed to a pretty promising result in their individual event... finishing just below talented Canadian dancers, but I didn't watch 2020 Youth Olympics nor do I know anything about how UtaShin were treated before/after that event from their fed. The Japanese fed is learning. They have recent world champions in 3 out of the 4 disciplines... yet, I am not so sure they are really investing in their dance program. If anything, the team event medal at the O Games may help in that way, and then, the younger teams may get better support.

 

[macy]

watching that ceremony made me so emotional for all of them! you could tell how much this meant to those teams to finally get their rightful medals after 2.5 years of waiting and enduring something that was no fault of theirs. can't imagine how good it feels. so proud of them for the humility, grace and strength they have shown all this time.

 

[Skating91]

if you say so. I'd like to know what the athletes themselves would say about that. I doubt they would agree with you. For instance, look at the Canadian golden team.... pretty much all of them had GP gold... some GPF gold... and still.. it was so darn important that they won the team event in 2018.

BTW.. just because I was curious.. .did you know that Gabby Daleman never won a GP medal, YET, she won bronze at worlds. What do you make of that ? Of course, she is also an Olympic champion, whether you think the team event is garbage or not.

Of course a world's medal or from any major competition singles/pairs is worth more than GP stage medal.

Is Karen Chen now equal to Shcherbakova because they are both one-time Olympic champions?

 

[4everchan]

Of course a world's medal or from any major competition singles/pairs is worth more than GP stage medal.

Is Karen Chen now equal to Shcherbakova because they are both one-time Olympic champions?

Karen and Anna both have an Olympic gold medal. That is a simple fact. For some people, the conversation ends there, and it's up to you to accept it or not. Now, you can look at other credentials and find where one is superior to the other. In this case, it's rather simple but based only on the number of Olympic gold, they both have one, indeed.

When tallying the number of medals swimmers get, they do not dismiss their relay medals... quite the opposite. So why would figure skaters suddenly do so ? Because the discipline of the team event is rather new ? Does it matter that a skater has much stronger teammates... Well, it doesn't because in relays, it's the same. Not all the Chinese, American and Australian swimmers who dominated the relays in the pool are made equal. Some were the weakest links of their teams. Some even only took part in the qualifying, yet they get a medal as well.

That's just the way sport works. There are different paths to get an Olympic title, and yes, Karen Chen is now an Olympic champion, whether you like it or not.

 

[Skating91]

Karen and Anna both have an Olympic gold medal. That is a simple fact. For some people, the conversation ends there, and it's up to you to accept it or not. Now, you can look at other credentials and find where one is superior to the other. In this case, it's rather simple but based only on the number of Olympic gold, they both have one, indeed.

When tallying the number of medals swimmers get, they do not dismiss their relay medals... quite the opposite. So why would figure skaters suddenly do so ? Because the discipline of the team event is rather new ? Does it matter that a skater has much stronger teammates... Well, it doesn't because in relays, it's the same. Not all the Chinese, American and Australian swimmers who dominated the relays in the pool are made equal. Some were the weakest links of their teams. Some even only took part in the qualifying, yet they get a medal as well.

That's just the way sport works. There are different paths to get an Olympic title, and yes, Karen Chen is now an Olympic champion, whether you like it or not.

Not all Olympic gold medals are equal. That's apparent with all the rock climbing, skateboarding, BMX medals handed out now. No disrespect to those sports, they are quite enjoyable.

Shcherbakova to earn her gold medal overcame the toughest field in history, had to beat Valieva, Trusova who had the best skate of her life, a strong Sakamoto.

Karen Chen earned her gold medal by getting beat by Valieva, Wakaba, Gubanova, Schizas in the short, by getting beat by Valieva, Sakamoto, Schizas in the free.

The medal is just a piece of metal, what it's worth is what was required to achieve it.

 

[4everchan]

As far as historical data is concerned, valieva didn't beat anyone in 2022. Her scores have been wiped out.

 

[Skating91]

As far as historical data is concerned, valieva didn't beat anyone in 2022. Her scores have been wiped out.

The scores have been wiped due to the lab's mishandling of her sample taken 40 days earlier (she should have received the result no later than 20 days), but her scores were valid. CAS in their report emphasised she was clean at the Olympics, that she did not dope, that there was no question over the legitimacy of her performances, that she had not gained an advantage. If Valieva had tested positive from a test taken AT the Olympics, and subsequently the results were cancelled then you can argue she didn't legitimately beat anyone.

 

[4everchan]

The scores have been wiped due to the lab's mishandling of her sample taken 40 days earlier (she should have received the result no later than 20 days), but her scores were valid. CAS in their report emphasised she was clean at the Olympics, that she did not dope, that there was no question over the legitimacy of her performances, that she had not gained an advantage. If Valieva had tested positive from a test taken AT the Olympics, and subsequently the results were cancelled then you can argue she didn't legitimately beat anyone.

not true at all.

let's say the lab is quick. then valieva is D/Qed from Russian nationals and never goes to the Olympics. no scores.

 

[Skating91]

not true at all.

let's say the lab is quick. then valieva is D/Qed from Russian nationals and never goes to the Olympics. no scores.

But the lab were tardy/incompetent/malevolent (I don't know which one), so she did compete, she legitimately competed, she passed all tests at the Olympics. CAS themselves who gave her a 4 year punishment said she did not intend to cheat and that he performances at the Olympics were legitimate.

 

[4everchan]

But the lab were tardy/incompetent/malevolent (I don't know which one), so she did compete, she legitimately competed, she passed all tests at the Olympics. CAS themselves who gave her a 4 year punishment said she did not intend to cheat and that he performances at the Olympics were legitimate.

That's your perception of what happened which is very different from most. I will just put it this way. You are free to have your opinion but that's not the facts. One last time : when someone has committed a doping infraction, whether or not they intended to cheat, whether or not it happened outside of the competition,, here, the Olympic games, they are suspended. Doping usually doesn't happen at the Olympic games but before them, during the training sessions. This is why there are random tests, out of season testing, etc. So it has absolutely no relevance whether Valieva was clean or not in February 2022. What matters is that she wasn't clean in December 2021, during Russian Nationals.

The lab is only there to provide results that are conclusive. It's not their fault if Valieva ate too much strawberries. Whether you like it or not, her scores are not legitimate and have been erased. It is definitely sad to see such a talented skater have their career destroyed by doping.

 

[Amei]

Not all Olympic gold medals are equal. That's apparent with all the rock climbing, skateboarding, BMX medals handed out now. No disrespect to those sports, they are quite enjoyable.

Shcherbakova to earn her gold medal overcame the toughest field in history, had to beat Valieva, Trusova who had the best skate of her life, a strong Sakamoto.

Karen Chen earned her gold medal by getting beat by Valieva, Wakaba, Gubanova, Schizas in the short, by getting beat by Valieva, Sakamoto, Schizas in the free.

The medal is just a piece of metal, what it's worth is what was required to achieve it.

The "problem" with the Team event is that an under-performer: Jeremy Abbot in Sochi, Kolyada in Pyeonchang and Karen in Beijing, gets a medal in spite of their actual performances.

 

[el henry]

The "problem" with the Team event is that an under-performer: Jeremy Abbot in Sochi, Kolyada in Pyeonchang and Karen in Beijing, gets a medal in spite of their actual performances.

But where is that a problem?

A runner in a relay can finish one leg in fourth place, but the final runner can turn that fourth place into gold.

All the members of the relay team all get gold medals and no one blinks an eye. Only in skating do I see the kvetching and moaning, maybe because we are not accustomed to it? Well, it's a gold medal, and the general public out there sees it as a gold medal, and so it is.

Won't stop the figure skating fan kvetching though, I know.