Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[rabidline]

I think the Olympic team event is recent enough that some fans think it's a "real event" while some others think it's "not a real event" compared to the individual events. But in my opinion this is pretty similar to gymnastics team event, no? The countries hold trials / selections to decide the Olympic team, and then they chose from who they have on their bench to field them at team events. That in itself should have some strategy and logistics behind it because of the rules, and not just some random picks. Although, if a country insist of picking their skaters without any particular thought behind it, then... ok.

Like let's take the US Team, for example. Vincent underperformed in the team event, finishing his FS below Yuma and Mark K. But his selection itself is a strategy from the US team- they obviously don't want Nathan doing both segments when the men's individual event is literally the day after the team event finishes, and the team have 2 substitutes they can make. Why not Jason? Probably there's another strategy- Vincent has a bigger TES ceiling so a possible bigger margin of error (and he can't mess up his SP the way he does in individual Worlds 2021), even though that ended up not mattering since he got COVID and can't compete in the individual event.

Look at Japan. For the first two Olympics, they're the token team who takes up space in the final 5 of team event because everyone knows they're hopeless at pairs and ice dance. Suddenly, Riku/Ryuichi is a team and a team event Olympic medal becomes possible- and the skaters knew it. But it wouldn't have worked if the singles skaters didn't hold the line (see what happened at WTT 2023). We like to think that Japan is a singles powerhouse, but at that time, Yuma hasn't skated a clean SP throughout the season, Wakaba is not the most consistent skater even in the SP (people were in panic and thought Kaori should have done the SP and Wakaba the FS), and Shoma opened the event after arriving less than 2 days before the team event started. Add to it they all had to avoid testing positive for COVID.

The point is, for every skater who gets chosen to compete at the team event, they compete as a team. Some of them punched above their weights, some of them did what they are expected to do, some of them underperformed. For some of them, they risk doing the team event at the cost of stamina (and COVID exposure!!!!) for their individual events. But the difference between the team event and individual event is that everyone contributes some points to the total, so meaning that it is an Olympic medal won by all of them and not one skater less. Karen Chen can't win the team OGM alone, but neither can Nathan Chen, even when he can win his individual OGM alone. I agree that there is a different value to the medal- which makes it either more precious or easier to dismiss depending how you see it, but it is an Olympic medal nonetheless.

And there is a special responsibility too, as a team member- this entire thread has been about what happens when a team member is found to test positive for a banned substance after they competed in a team event.

 

[Magill]

My problem with the team event is that you have the same athletes doing exactly the same thing, just for the second time, with the benefit that in the team event the field is much more limited and therefore less demanding, as fewer skaters compete, in many cases the main competitors are missing, and you need to excel in just one programme instead of two (like you could get an individual OGM just for SP or just for FS). That's why I do not think it equal to the individual OGM in any objective terms.
I do not really think you can make any fair comparison to classic team sports as this is still an individual sport, and individual performances are basically identical as for the individual event. They are not required to do anything else, and they are not doing anything together as a team, like you need to, for example, for any relay, just their individual placements are combined. Again, placements and not scores, in a field made smaller by the team event requirements thus obtaining a good placement is much easier than in the full field. In many a case the score needed to win a particular team segment and get a perfect 10 would not even put you in top 5 or maybe even top 10 in the full field, or in the individual competition next day. That's why, like it or not, many fans perceive it more like a fun competition - Japan Open type of event, just a fun warm up before the real party starts, with team medals perceived accordingly. And they will continue to do so unless some serious change is introduced to make it really different and not just an easier way to get an Olympic medal if you come from a big fed.
IMHO, if they wanted to award some kind of national consistency in exceling across different FS disciplines, combining scores or even placements from the best ranking skaters of one nation in the individual event would be much fairer as here you need to compete against the full field at all their might. Otherwise, like it or not, many people will always perceive it as not "real" enough.
And, yes, if you spend a whole competition at the bench as an extra, you may still get the medal if your team wins, and you can show it to your grandkids and cherish it on a personal level, but it does not make you perceived as a great of the sport anyway, nor does it make your individual ranking in the sport any higher if you have nothing more to show for it.

 

[rabidline]

I think some fans want to prove that winning an Olympic medal in a team event doesn't make you "a great" in figure skating, which to be honest, I don't disagree with. The combined accolades of a particular skater with the individual event is the one that makes a skater "a great" in figure skating.

But the team event participation and result, IMO, shows how "a great" is a team player. Especially for those who competed with their individual event having really close dates to the team event. Why? Because the result of the Olympic team event can help the other skaters from the represented country get more support, especially for the more fledgling disciplines in that country. It shows camaraderie amongst the skaters in a more concrete way, because they know they're not just fighting for themselves.

I see a potential in the future for skaters who are in the top 10 in the world, but have little to no chance to make the individual podium still fight hard for their way to the Olympics and make it as one of the top skaters of their country, because of this chance to medal at the Olympics. It makes the competition (on and off the ice) in the national level of big skating countries interesting, IMO, because that will decide who gets the chance to make the team.

That's what makes it different than Japan Open. Ok, Japan Open is fun, but only the skaters invited (from two continents combined and Japan, invited whether by popularity, merit, or just circumstances or connections to the organizer) can participate. In the Olympic team event, the best of the best of that country are there, and that country also has the best of the best combined result across all disciplines among other countries in the 2 years before the Olympics. I guess a similar comparison can be made with WTT, but WTT is actually rigged (singles have more points than pairs and ice dance.... because pre-Rikuryu Japan lol).

 

[Magill]

But the team event participation and result, IMO, shows how "a great" is a team player.

Disagree. It shows the strength of a team, not of any player as an individual. That's the difference between team sports and individual sports. I mean, you can have it either one way, or another. A team's strength may lie in having one extra great player among many weak players or it may lie in good level of all players neither of whom is really great as an individual. Team placement says nothing about individual ranking of its members. Team competition require accepting a different perspective than individual ones which seems o be mixed up in this discussion.

. In the Olympic team event, the best of the best of that country are there, and that country also has the best of the best combined result across all disciplines among other countries in the 2 years before the Olympics.

This is not true, either. For example, in the Olympic team event in 2018 Yuzuru was not participating at all, while he was then obviously the best single skater in Japan and in the world, as the individual event proved when he won OGM the next days. In team FS 2018, Nathan was not participating either, making it possible for Patrick Chan to win it. I think it rather unlikely, Chan would have won against Nathan in FS, if Nathan competed there. Same against Yuzuru. So, no, it is not best of the best in the current field competing. That's why it is perceived the way it is.

 

[rabidline]

Disagree. It shows the strength of a team, not of any player as an individual. That's the difference between team sports and individual sports. I mean, you can have it either one way, or another. A team's strength may lie in having one extra great player among many weak players or it may lie in good level of all players neither of whom is really great as an individual. Team placement says nothing about individual ranking of its members. Team competition require accepting a different perspective than individual ones which seems o be mixed up in this discussion.


This is not true, either. For example, in the Olympic team event in 2018 Yuzuru was not participating at all, while he was then obviously the best single skater in Japan and in the world, as the individual event proved when he won OGM the next days. In team FS 2018, Nathan was not participating either, making it possible for Patrick Chan to win it. I think it rather unlikely, Chan would have won against Nathan in FS, if Nathan competed there. Same with Yuzuru. So, no, it is not best of the best in the current field competing. That's why it is perceived the way it is.

You said it yourself, team competition requiring accepting a different perspective than individual ones. And I agree the achievement shows the strength of the team, but I can also see how those individual "greats" participate as a team player, whether when their team was weak, or when their team was strong. It's why I think I can see how those greats are a team player, because some of them do risk their individual events for the team event, regardless of the country's chances of medaling. (Granted, some of them probably wanted a warm-up event before the real thing and that's fair lol). There are also "greats" who choose to not compete at the team event to focus on the individual medal, and that's valid too, but they also lose the chance to be part of the best team skating and contribute to a team medal.

So from the perspective of team event competition, the skaters competing in the Olympic team event comes from the field of "best of the best" skaters that country has to offer for the Olympics, because they all have been selected by that country to represent at the Olympics through a selection event (trials / Nationals). They also must be available for and accepts the selection for the team event. Now how they are "deployed" in that team event depends on strategy and logistics of the country to secure the medal, which does take the skaters' chances in individual events into consideration... and other unfortunate circumstances (think Keegan in 2022, Alysa in 2022). But that means whoever is fielded is "the best" that country can select for the team event. Even if there are other de facto better skaters in that country, when they're not participating in the team event, their "greatness" does not impact nor contribute to the team event.

Similar to how the best skaters withdraw from the post-Olympic Worlds, for example. The World Champion can only beat the skaters who competed there, and that's the best the countries can offer Worlds at that moment. And they will still be World Champion. So the team event medalists are the best skaters the country have who can and do compete in that event. And they will still be Olympic medalists.

There are "greats" who after 3 Olympics have OGMs both in individual and team events (1 skater/team per 1 Olympic too!). But that's just one of the bonus, I think, of excelling individually and having teammates from their country who are great too. It likely won't help their case as the skating GOATs when the team event is so new, but they're both great individual champions who can also deliver for their teammates and country.

 

[Magill]

the whole post

I am pretty sure if any of these skaters could trade their team medal for an individual one of the same colour, whether the only one or a third one, they would do it without a second thought. It's naive to think otherwise. And this alone says it all.
Team event is not equally prestigious as the individual one, therefore the medals are not equally prestigious. That's all there is to it. It does not make them less Olympic, just less prestigious. Some titles are just more prestigious than some others, that's life.
Now excuse me , I just need to bow out from here.

 

[rabidline]

It does not make them less Olympic

Yes, I agree and the best teams made it to the Olympic podium!

And who knows, in the future they may have a bigger value...

 

[Magill]

And who knows, in the future they may have a bigger value...

Then maybe let's return to it in the future, when they are, if they are. Now they are what they are and no need to pretend otherwise.

 

[rabidline]

Then maybe let's return to it in the future, when they are, if they are. Now they are what they are and no need to pretend otherwise.

It's still an Olympic medal and with it comes opportunities, different as they may from the opportunities that comes with an individual medal. No need to pretend it's not an Olympic medal just because it's less prestigious.

 

[Skating91]

My problem with the team event is that you have the same athletes doing exactly the same thing, just for the second time, with the benefit that in the team event the field is much more limited and therefore less demanding, as fewer skaters compete, in many cases the main competitors are missing, and you need to excel in just one programme instead of two (like you could get an individual OGM just for SP or just for FS). That's why I do not think it equal to the individual OGM in any objective terms.
I do not really think you can make any fair comparison to classic team sports as this is still an individual sport, and individual performances are basically identical as for the individual event. They are not required to do anything else, and they are not doing anything together as a team, like you need to, for example, for any relay, just their individual placements are combined. Again, placements and not scores, in a field made smaller by the team event requirements thus obtaining a good placement is much easier than in the full field. In many a case the score needed to win a particular team segment and get a perfect 10 would not even put you in top 5 or maybe even top 10 in the full field, or in the individual competition next day. That's why, like it or not, many fans perceive it more like a fun competition - Japan Open type of event, just a fun warm up before the real party starts, with team medals perceived accordingly. And they will continue to do so unless some serious change is introduced to make it really different and not just an easier way to get an Olympic medal if you come from a big fed.
IMHO, if they wanted to award some kind of national consistency in exceling across different FS disciplines, combining scores or even placements from the best ranking skaters of one nation in the individual event would be much fairer as here you need to compete against the full field at all their might. Otherwise, like it or not, many people will always perceive it as not "real" enough.
And, yes, if you spend a whole competition at the bench as an extra, you may still get the medal if your team wins, and you can show it to your grandkids and cherish it on a personal level, but it does not make you perceived as a great of the sport anyway, nor does it make your individual ranking in the sport any higher if you have nothing more to show for it.

I agree with this. You make great points.

As for the argument someone might be on the bench of a team game as a substitute and not play so doesn't deserve the medal, a bench is fundamental part of and major tactical component of team ball sports. Players have different roles, are used in short bursts, there might be two reserves for a specialised position like the goalkeeper with the reserves never getting game time but you couldn't go into a tournament without reserve goalkeepers. Often a team is as good as their bottom 2 or 3 players not top 2 or 3.

This is completely different to a team event where as you say skaters perform their programs identical to what they will use in the individual/pairs competition but against a depleted field.

If there was a team event like sychronised skating at the Olympics I would not consider this a diminished event, and would not consider a reserve receiving a medal as undeserving. This would be a real team event, not a contrived event invented to created additional TV content.

Also, figure skating doesn't have a deep enough to talent pool to give this team event any credibility. The last Olympics we knew in advance which teams would be receiving medals, it was just a matter of what the order would be (more so for silver and bronze). Only ROC and USA could provide skaters of a competitive level in all four disciplines. Some couldn't provide competitive skaters in any discipline. If only two countries in the world have enough talent to provide competitive skaters in all four disciplines, it probably shouldn't exist.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think any of us are going to agree , so let's agree not to. I just can not and will not ever concede that, where they do not compete together as a team, but simply and separately do the exact same routines they will in the individual event and then some of them, due to their nationality, be hoisted onto a podium above people who in both events, did far and away better, it's a lesser (and politically-motivated, invented to give the powerful feds more candies) award. But if folk want it proclaimed that Vincent Zhou's program was clearly superior to Shona's or Yuma's because he got gold for it and they didn't, or Gabrielle Daleman was OGM worthy over everyone who beat her by miles in the real event...

Gabby skated a wonderful program at the team event and that's the beauty of the sport. Same with Maddie. They both showed up for their team when it mattered. It's not so hard to understand for those who do sport. There are contexts that are very conducive to produce the best or the worse of an athlete, depending on how they react to the pressure and support of a specific event. This is what I see in figure skating team event. Too bad some don't see it.. I'd also invite you and others to open yet another thread to discuss this (as it's been done countless time) as this doesn't have much to do with KV.

 

[4everchan]

I am pretty sure if any of these skaters could trade their team medal for an individual one of the same colour, whether the only one or a third one, they would do it without a second thought. It's naive to think otherwise. And this alone says it all.
Team event is not equally prestigious as the individual one, therefore the medals are not equally prestigious. That's all there is to it. It does not make them less Olympic, just less prestigious. Some titles are just more prestigious than some others, that's life.
Now excuse me , I just need to bow out from here.

It is the same thing in all sports. Do you think the 4X100 relay athletes would trade their medal for the individual one ? Yes. So in what way is that different for figure skating ? Does Simone Biles value more her individual all-around medal versus the team event ? Same. This argument seems so great on paper until one realizes that it's the same in other sports that have a longer team event tradition and are fine with it.

 

[VickB]

I just found out on Wikipedia that she is still credited with 2 gold medals for world junior and junior grand prix final ... this is a disservice to other athletes.

 

[4everchan]

I just found out on Wikipedia that she is still credited with 2 gold medals for world junior and junior grand prix final ... this is a disservice to other athletes.

They only wipe out results since the positive test.

 

[el henry]

Who is a great is a far different issue, no?

These skaters who won team gold are Olympic gold medalists. PeriodT.

Does the event favor big feds? Sure. So does every other team event in the Olympics. Did St Lucia even field a relay team in the women's 4 X 100? But Julien Alfred won gold in the individual. Is St Lucia at a disadvantage as a tiny fed? Sure. But do I hear the kvetching and moaning from track fans? No.

Gymnasts perform their indivdual routines in the team event, don't they? Are gymnastics fans kvetching and moaning about the team event not being gold, that gymnasts know in their heart of heats it's not the same, whatevs? No.

I think this may die down in 30 years, but who knows? We're skating fans.

 

[4everchan]

Who is a great is a far different issue, no?

These skaters who won team gold are Olympic gold medalists. PeriodT.

Does the event favor big feds? Sure. So does every other team event in the Olympics. Did St Lucia even field a relay team in the women's 4 X 100? But Julien Alfred won gold in the individual. Is St Lucia at a disadvantage as a tiny fed? Sure. But do I hear the kvetching and moaning from track fans? No.

Gymnasts perform their indivdual routines in the team event, don't they? Are gymnastics fans kvetching and moaning about the team event not being gold, that gymnasts know in their heart of heats it's not the same, whatevs? No.

I think this may die down in 30 years, but who knows? We're skating fans.

I have been a skating fan for just about 30 years... the kvetching, if anything, is more present nowadays than before ... at least, it is more apparent with social media... in 30 years, the kvetching will be dead, because we may also be all gone LOL

 

[el henry]

Athletes do have a sense of humor (and aren't giving their medals back).

I did not watch every minute of basketball, but what I did watch Tyrese Halliburton did not play one minute. Not one. Star benchwarmer.

And he appreciates his gold.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Athletes do have a sense of humor (and aren't giving their medals back).

I did not watch every minute of basketball, but what I did watch Tyrese Halliburton did not play one minute. Not one. Star benchwarmer.

And he appreciates his gold.

In the 1980 Winter Olympics, Steve Janaszak was the back-up goalie on the US hockey team and didn't play one minute in any game of the series, but received a gold medal like all the other team players. What's more, he knew before they even left for Lake Placid that the coach was not going to use him unless the star goalie, Jim Craig, was injured. The coach gave him a choice of going to the Olympics, suiting up for every game and then sitting on the bench the whole time, or staying home nearby, waiting to perhaps be called. He chose to go, and contributed to the whole team spirit by working out in goal in their daily practices.

He said years later that at the 1980 Olympics he won the two biggest prizes of his life: his gold medal, and his wife, whom he met in the athletes' village where she was working as an interpreter

 

[Skating91]

I just found out on Wikipedia that she is still credited with 2 gold medals for world junior and junior grand prix final ... this is a disservice to other athletes.

I thought a 4 year ban was harsh enough especially for a child. In the Olympics there was someone competing in a final claiming their doping came from eating oxtail, received no penalty. Another person who claimed the doping came from a pet's medication, no penalty. Even adults don't receive anything like Valieva did for a trace amount of doping.

 

[Magill]

Discussing a need for a team event in an individual sport having no tradition of such an event, and its eventual place in the wider spectre of the sport, is not "kvetching and moaning" but just a legitimate discussion like any other in this forum, with varied opinions and povs, as they should be. But if that's the name you want, here's some more "kvetching and moaning" from Dick Button, an American legend of the sport (coming from 2017 so unaffected by the doping scandal). May be summarized as "Now everybody is a gold medalist cause some team wins the gold medal... " And he does not seem neither happy nor proud about it. I guess as one of only 2 back to back men individual OGMs in the history of the sport, he can well tell the difference.