Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[macy]

Discussing a need for a team event in an individual sport having no tradition of such an event, and its eventual place in the wider spectre of the sport, is not "kvetching and moaning" but just a legitimate discussion like any other in this forum, with varied opinions and povs, as they should be. But if that's the name you want, here's some more "kvetching and moaning" from Dick Button, an American legend of the sport (coming from 2017 so unaffected by the doping scandal). May be summarized as "Now everybody is a gold medalist cause some team wins the gold medal... " And he does not seem neither happy nor proud about it. I guess as one of only 2 back to back men individual OGMs in the history of the sport, he can well tell the difference.

this isn't surprising to hear from Dick, imo. it rings of being very stuck in the old world/old ways/times of past, and the 50's were 70 plus years ago. he competed a very long time ago. some people think because something has been done a certain way for so long and it's "tradition", it should be done like that forever. i'm curious if he has this same opinion on other sports, like gymnastics, who have had a team event forever (which is an incredibly prestigious event, and one of the biggest gymnastics olympic events despite being an individual sport). the team event is one where strategy must be used amongst the entire team to bring the best results, and if one falters others need to step up. i don't see the issue with winning an olympic medal for your country as a team vs as an individual...pretty double standard. this just reeks of bitter/grumpy old man to me and i don't give it much merit. i guess he should be glad there was no team event when he competed and move along.

 

[Skating91]

When details from a scientific experiment that could have helped clear embattled Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva landed at the World Anti-Doping Agency, the leader of that organization’s reaction was unequivocal: “We have to stop that urgently,” he wrote.

'Stop that urgently.' Possible path to innocence for Russian skater was held back at WADA's urging

When details from a scientific experiment that could have helped clear embattled Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva landed at the World Anti-Doping Agency, the leader of that organization’s reaction was unequivocal: “We have to stop that urgently,” he wrote.

apnews.com

Hiding evidence in order to manipulate the outcome of the case. Scary. Poor Kamila

 

[gsk8]

Hiding evidence in order to manipulate the outcome of the case. Scary. Poor Kamila

There was no "hiding" of any evidence. WADA simply refused to entertain a scientific experiment. There's a difference.

 

[Amei]

There was no "hiding" of any evidence. WADA simply refused to entertain a scientific experiment. There's a difference.

Yeah, the experiment means nothing here given she provided no evidence that "grandpa" existed to CAS.

And people should look up the guy that conducted the experiment- he's suspected of helping Lance Armstrong's team evade doping and destroyed doping samples he was told to keep, we aren't talking about Mother Theresa here.

 

[Skating91]

Yeah, the experiment means nothing here given she provided no evidence that "grandpa" existed to CAS.

It's very clear the grandfather exists. CAS, WADA acknowledged that he escorted her to training in that Olympic season while her mother was at work. They argued that the heart condition wasn't serious because he was able to drive Kamila's house each day. There's even evidence of him in videos taken in Khrustalny.

If the experiment means nothing, then why did the leader of the organisation order for it to be immediately halted when the results of the experiment verified Kamila's explanation. If the goal is to get to the truth, it is certainly strange.

 

[Skating91]

There was no "hiding" of any evidence. WADA simply refused to entertain a scientific experiment. There's a difference.

The WADA International Standard for Testing and Investigations says investigators “should consider all possible outcomes at each key stage of the investigation, and should seek to gather not only any available evidence indicating that there is a case to answer but also any available evidence indicating that there is no case to answer.”

The experiment was being conducted or had been conducted, and results were coming back favourable to Kamila. An opinion on this was being written and they ordered that this be stopped immediately because the results of the experiment and the opinion would be shown in court.

Maybe hiding the results of the scientific experiment that was underway and showing results favourable to Kamila is a better way to put it .

 

[Amei]

The WADA International Standard for Testing and Investigations says investigators “should consider all possible outcomes at each key stage of the investigation, and should seek to gather not only any available evidence indicating that there is a case to answer but also any available evidence indicating that there is no case to answer.”

The experiment was being conducted or had been conducted, and results were coming back favourable to Kamila. An opinion on this was being written and they ordered that this be stopped immediately because the results of the experiment and the opinion would be shown in court.

Maybe hiding the results of the scientific experiment that was underway and showing results favourable to Kamila is a better way to put it .

An experiment confirming that yes you can get contamination if you prepare something on the same surface that you crush a pill on is irrelevant when you don't provide evidence that the person who allegedly takes the medicine exists. From the CAS decision:

Page 45 sealed her fate, as far as I can see: "There is no evidence from the Athlete that Mr Solovyov exists"

How could they possibly think they would win by putting up a defense with no evidence to support what they said?

 

[Skating91]

An experiment confirming that yes you can get contamination if you prepare something on the same surface that you crush a pill on is irrelevant when you don't provide evidence that the person who allegedly takes the medicine exists. From the CAS decision:

He definitely exists. They refer to him throughout and base their decisions on his statements.

 

[4everchan]

He definitely exists. They refer to him throughout and base their decisions on his statements.

does not dispute doesn't mean anything if there is no evidence the dude is actually a person.

does not dispute means simply that they won't argue against that argument... there is no need to do so since argument a trumps b and c.

 

[Skating91]

Daniil Gleikhengauz, choreographer of coach Eteri Tutberidze's group, in a conversation with Sport24 correspondent Konstantin Lesik, told how he felt during the hearings in the case of figure skater Kamila Valieva.

— Did you participate in the hearings on her case, how was it? Did you feel any bias?
— It was online. I came to the law firm that was handling her case, it was in Moscow City. I participated in the hearing via video link. Honestly, it was an exciting event. It was downright scary, everything was so official, “do you swear to tell only the truth,” etc.

— Did they answer in English?
— There was a translator, I spoke Russian. They asked questions. I'm not a stupid person, but it seemed to me that with each question they were leading up to the answer they needed. It doesn't matter what you answer. You were asked a question, you answered it. They ask you the same question, but worded differently. And so on for five minutes straight. You sit and don't understand what they want from you.

I told them everything as it was, there were no worries. The questions to me were quite simple: "Have you seen your grandfather?" Yes, I saw him, he brought us cucumbers. I talked to him in person. They didn't ask me any direct questions about doping. It felt like they didn't care that I was a figure skating coach.

- Was it just one time?
- I went once. It wasn't with me for very long - about 30-40 minutes.

— So there was a feeling that everything was going in one direction?
— Yes, there is a certain version or direction. They need you to answer it. If you don’t answer it the way you should, they just keep asking the same question.

 

[Dreamer57]

NHK World have posted a video today called Kamila Valieva: Despair on the Ice - The Fate of Russian Athletes

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

I believe it is the first time Moscow Skating Academy have allowed a foreign broadcaster to view their facilities and interview Kamila. From late 2023. There are also interviews with her coach, WADA and a journalist.

 

[Minz]

this isn't surprising to hear from Dick, imo. it rings of being very stuck in the old world/old ways/times of past, and the 50's were 70 plus years ago. he competed a very long time ago. some people think because something has been done a certain way for so long and it's "tradition", it should be done like that forever. i'm curious if he has this same opinion on other sports, like gymnastics, who have had a team event forever (which is an incredibly prestigious event, and one of the biggest gymnastics olympic events despite being an individual sport). the team event is one where strategy must be used amongst the entire team to bring the best results, and if one falters others need to step up. i don't see the issue with winning an olympic medal for your country as a team vs as an individual...pretty double standard. this just reeks of bitter/grumpy old man to me and i don't give it much merit. i guess he should be glad there was no team event when he competed and move along.

I feel like his statement also refers to the state of skating in general, not just the team event medal situation.

And let’s be honest, the ISU isn’t exactly known for being the most competent organization, even amongst us who are not 95 years old (as Dick Button is).

 

[Skating91]

NHK World have posted a video today called Kamila Valieva: Despair on the Ice - The Fate of Russian Athletes

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

I believe it is the first time Moscow Skating Academy have allowed a foreign broadcaster to view their facilities and interview Kamila. From late 2023. There are also interviews with her coach, WADA and a journalist.

I watched this in January but with subtitles added by fans, so I'll watch it again see if there are differences. I really liked seeing behind the scenes, but the way they edited the footage made it seem like the skaters often fall on every jump, are constantly frustrated, Eteri's constantly yelling, whereas these things probably happen once or twice per day. Because I've watched a lot of fan shot videos from warm ups, training, Channel 1 videos from practice (they have an agenda of course), and you never see anything like this. Girls are calm, they make their jumps, communication between coaches and skaters is all normal.

It felt a little disingenuous and almost exploitative to me. It came out around the time (just days after I think) after the CAS verdict, and they promoted it at the time as a tell all interview, using Kamila as the face of it, her looking down at her lap in slow motion as if hiding some big secret, but very little is about Kamila and her case. I imagine NHK also gained access to the facility probably promising Eteri one thing, but delivering another.

I'm looking forward to NHK doing a similar documentary about Mie Hamada

 

[jersey1302]

This entire case is ridiculous. Nothing added up in the Valieva camp, stories changing etc.. the doctor involved was at the front of the doping scandal of Sochi, and after reading Rodchenkov’stell all book.. it’s sickeningly apparent how the Russian team is completely still doping and will do absolutely anything to cover it up.

 

[Skating91]

This has been missed by everyone. I only noticed it re-watching it now.

30:20 Narrator - "Professor Rabin also pointed out that the level of trimetazidine was not consistent with her claim that the medication had been accidentally mixed in at home"

Senior Director, Science and Medicine Olivier Rabin - "...Provided by the athlete didn't match the urinary concentration that we found in her sample and there was a disconnection between the explanation and what we could find at the scientific level. So the story didn't match the scientific facts.

Except the Director-General of WADA Olivier Niggli (Rabin's boss) got personally involved in shutting down an experiment when the results showed that the level of TMZ in Valieva's body was consistent with her explanation.

This is frightening.

 

[Karoltyna]

This has been missed by everyone. I only noticed it re-watching it now.

30:20 Narrator - "Professor Rabin also pointed out that the level of trimetazidine was not consistent with her claim that the medication had been accidentally mixed in at home"

Senior Director, Science and Medicine Olivier Rabin - "...Provided by the athlete didn't match the urinary concentration that we found in her sample and there was a disconnection between the explanation and what we could find at the scientific level. So the story didn't match the scientific facts.

Except the Director-General of WADA Olivier Niggli (Rabin's boss) got personally involved in shutting down an experiment when the results showed that the level of TMZ in Valieva's body was consistent with her explanation.

This is frightening.

Could you elaborate what experiment you are referring to?

 

[Skating91]

'Stop that urgently.' Possible path to innocence for Russian skater was held back at WADA's urging | The Associated Press

When details from a scientific experiment that could have helped clear embattled Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva landed at the World Anti-Doping

www.ap.org

 

[Minz]

This has been missed by everyone. I only noticed it re-watching it now.

30:20 Narrator - "Professor Rabin also pointed out that the level of trimetazidine was not consistent with her claim that the medication had been accidentally mixed in at home"

Senior Director, Science and Medicine Olivier Rabin - "...Provided by the athlete didn't match the urinary concentration that we found in her sample and there was a disconnection between the explanation and what we could find at the scientific level. So the story didn't match the scientific facts.

Except the Director-General of WADA Olivier Niggli (Rabin's boss) got personally involved in shutting down an experiment when the results showed that the level of TMZ in Valieva's body was consistent with her explanation.

This is frightening.

Okay yes, so I get what you’re saying, but there were other reasons cited for the verdict. All this is saying is the amount of TMZ found lines up with the grandpa theory. However, that doesn’t matter if the court has other reasons to say the whole theory isn’t true in the first place.

 

[Skating91]

Okay yes, so I get what you’re saying, but there were other reasons cited for the verdict. All this is saying is the amount of TMZ found lines up with the grandpa theory. However, that doesn’t matter if the court has other reasons to say the whole theory isn’t true in the first place.

It would have been strong evidence, and CAS would have taken it into account. It could have meant a 6 month suspension or 1 year suspension instead of 4 years. Presumably this is why the Director-General personally got involved to shut it down immediately he was afraid of her getting a smaller sentence. CAS even said that Valieva was completely believable and honest in her testimony, so couple that with an experiment that lines up with her explanation, it would only help her.

 

[Anna K.]

The "beating a dead horse" emoji has been removed from the menu
Too bad. I would need it for every single thing I might say in this thread. But since I have no emoji [sigh]... I'll better retain from this discussion.