Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[4everchan]

I think the mistake Canada made was not being verbal from the beginning. The United States never let up they took the lead and they were very persistent in pursuing getting that gold medal. the Japanese were vocal as well they stood in unison with USA supportive of the effort they agreed but boy did the USA drive the conversation.
The Canadians weren't talking about it...that Im aware of they didn't file appeal early on and they weren't verbal. I think it seems and no shade or nastiness that Skate Canada sat back and thought okay United States you take the lead we will wait for Russia get disqualified and we'll get this bronze medal in a manner similar to track and field relays and gymnastics (not the best strategy since the team event is relatively new) can't come in at the very end and fight for something and I think that's where Canada made their mistake they should have been fighting for the bronze since day one like the USA and Japan.

They did file early enough and were verbal about it. There are many ways to protest.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

How infuriating. But I commend Canada for the fight and also staying classy as always after the decision. I will always know that Canada are the real bronze medalists.

 

[lariko]

Given that Canada can compete in 2026, and Russia can't, and the the precedent of a ban for waging a war during Olympic truth not being followed through by the IOC, I support this resolution.

 

[4everchan]

Given that Canada can compete in 2026, and Russia can't, and the the precedent of a ban for waging a war during Olympic truth not being followed through by the IOC, I support this resolution.

Can Vanessa James just to name one, can compete in 2026? I doubt the appeal was ever about one more medal for Canada..but for the athletes themselves.

 

[TallyT]

I tend to think Canada deserved it more but the whole thing's now so grubby all the team medals are tainted so I don't care. Let them post the bronze ones to the Russians, there be an end to the mess and it be consigned to the history books.

I wonder if the other medals that Valieva was stripped of ever got returned and given to the now actual winners? Somehow, I doubt it. Don't care there either.

 

[Skating91]

Given that Canada can compete in 2026, and Russia can't, and the the precedent of a ban for waging a war during Olympic truth not being followed through by the IOC, I support this resolution.

You make a good point I completely forgot about that. People were quite vocal about this during the 2022 Paralympics, but seemingly it's a non issue what is going in parts of the world right now during the Olympics. Maybe people are too mesmerized watching nearly 40 year old Olympians seemingly defy the aging process to care. It is interesting though.

 

[lariko]

Can Vanessa James just to name one, can compete in 2026? I doubt the appeal was ever about one more medal for Canada..but for the athletes themselves.

Providing Stelatto-Dudek's precedent, there are no age rules nor ban stopping James from competing in the next Olympics. Given the recent age rules updates by ISU specifically, the age of both pair and dance skaters is likely to trend up, not down. In other words, in 2026, there are nothing preventing any Canadian athlete, including James, from being selected for Olympics and earning the Team medal, aside from their athletic prowess. On the other hand, the IOC's exceptional ruling only in Russian case of 2022 and ISU's follow-up interpretation of IOC's ruling on Russian athletes representing Russia excludes Team Russia from completing as a team.

 

[4everchan]

Providing Stelatto-Dudek's precedent, there are no age rules nor ban stopping James from competing in the next Olympics. Given the recent age rules updates by ISU specifically, the age of both pair and dance skaters is likely to trend up, not down. In other words, in 2026, there are nothing preventing any Canadian athlete, including James, from being selected for Olympics and earning the Team medal, aside from their athletic prowess. On the other hand, the IOC's exceptional ruling only in Russian case of 2022 and ISU's follow-up interpretation of IOC's ruling on Russian athletes representing Russia excludes Team Russia from completing as a team.

But you realize that this medal is given to skaters who had a doped athlete in their team. The thing about any athlete able to come back later, then it can be applied to all these Russian athletes. They can come back in many years too, when they are readmitted.

 

[Skating91]

But you realize that this medal is given to skaters who had a doped athlete in their team. The thing about any athlete able to come back later, then it can be applied to all these Russian athletes. They can come back in many years too, when they are readmitted.

Valieva was not doped at the Olympics she passed all tests clean. There was no doped athlete in their team. The team was selected in good faith. Shcherbakova or Trusova (or any top 10 skater in Russia) could have been selected and ROC would have won gold. ROC are being punished for WADA's lab's incompetence. It's totally unfair.

 

[4everchan]

Valieva was not doped at the Olympics she passed all tests clean. There was no doped athlete in their team. The team was selected in good faith. Shcherbakova or Trusova (or any top 10 skater in Russia) could have been selected and ROC would have won gold. ROC are being punished for WADA's lab's incompetence. It's totally unfair.

You're entitled to your opinion but those are not the facts presented to us and accepted by valieva's own lawyers.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

You make a good point I completely forgot about that. People were quite vocal about this during the 2022 Paralympics, but seemingly it's a non issue what is going in parts of the world right now during the Olympics. Maybe people are too mesmerized watching nearly 40 year old Olympians seemingly defy the aging process to care. It is interesting though.

Russia had to break the Olympic truce three (!) times before the Russian NOC was suspended...

 

[TallyT]

Shcherbakova or Trusova (or any top 10 skater in Russia) could have been selected and ROC would have won gold. ROC are being punished for WADA's lab's incompetence. It's totally unfair.

Then ROC should have selected one of them. And it's been well and truly established except for cheaters' apologists that the lab was not incompetent, the whole and entire blame goes to the skater's team and federation. ROC is being punished (if this slap on the wrist can be called punishment) by and for their own record of dishonesty, cheating and lying.

 

[lariko]

But you realize that this medal is given to skaters who had a doped athlete in their team. The thing about any athlete able to come back later, then it can be applied to all these Russian athletes. They can come back in many years too, when they are readmitted.

But I am not arguing about the age of athletes. I agree with the team medal decision. I doubt Russia will be readmitted given how the situation has developed so far and how politics is looking like. At the moment, Russian ban is indefinite.

Team Canada has a very real shot in 2026 where the only limit is their talent and fighting spirit. if it was stated officially that Russia will be readmitted in 2026 or 2030, I would be in favor of Canadian bronze, specifically because team members can compete again and Russia can compete again. A just decision always leaves all parties a little peeved.

Valieva's proceedings was lengthy, thorough, transparent and public. One of the most surprising outcomes of it was that Valieva was found not guilty of cheating, only of ingesting prohibited substance. I know, i was shockedas well. As abhorrent and unacceptable as Russians' behavior was from the moment when they knowingly put an athlete with an outstanding doping control test on the team and thereafter, apparently the highest international authority didn't accuse her of deliberately cheating in Russian Nationals. Valieva entered team competition with an unknown doping test result. Individual competition, she was known to have been positive for prohibited substance in the past. Team, no. Not that it excuses the RusFed negligence in any way, and the blame for the medal mess lay squarely on them, not WADA or laboratory.

Now, i want to commend the Italians who were able to offer Grassl the privacy and dignity that any athlete accused of a doping violation would want. We basically never saw anything published and no proceedings were opened to press, and he is back after sitting out a year.

 

[lariko]

Russia had to break the Olympic truce three (!) times before the Russian NOC was suspended...

But now that they have been, violation of Oly truth should lead to suspension, particularly when condemned by all the top international watchdogs. It makes so much sense to use Olympics as a moral compass. Compass, however, should always point in the true direction not be like a weather wane.

 

[4everchan]

But I am not arguing about the age of athletes. I agree with the team medal decision. I doubt Russia will be readmitted given how the situation has developed so far and how politics is looking like. At the moment, Russian ban is indefinite.

Team Canada has a very real shot in 2026 where the only limit is their talent and fighting spirit. if it was stated officially that Russia will be readmitted in 2026 or 2030, I would be in favor of Canadian bronze, specifically because team members can compete again and Russia can compete again. A just decision always leaves all parties a little peeved.

Valieva's proceedings was lengthy, thorough, transparent and public. One of the most surprising outcomes of it was that Valieva was found not guilty of cheating, only of ingesting prohibited substance. I know, i was shockedas well. As abhorrent and unacceptable as Russians' behavior was from the moment when they knowingly put an athlete with an outstanding doping control test on the team and thereafter, apparently the highest international authority didn't accuse her of deliberately cheating in Russian Nationals. Valieva entered team competition with an unknown doping test result. Individual competition, she was known to have been positive for prohibited substance in the past. Team, no. Not that it excuses the RusFed negligence in any way, and the blame for the medal mess lay squarely on them, not WADA or laboratory.

Now, i want to commend the Italians who were able to offer Grassl the privacy and dignity that any athlete accused of a doping violation would want. We basically never saw anything published and no proceedings were opened to press, and he is back after sitting out a year.

I don't understand the argument about future opportunities... Definitely not, and especially not in regards to the Olympics... Even if the Canadians won gold in 2026, it wouldn't bring back the lost medal they deserved in 2022. The ISU is so so so afraid of the RusFed. Eteri, the entire coaching staff and that Doctor, should all have been banned from the games and suspended. ROC should have been DQ not even put in 4th place. I respect that other people don't agree with that, but that's how I see it. The whole thing took epic and ridiculous proportions, including with this partial medal ceremony. If you don't want the ROC skaters on the podium in Paris, then, just DQ them. Simple as that. These half decisions is exactly the reason why the ISU is losing so many fans all the time. I am done with this topic and in all respect, we can agree to disagree on this.

 

[Skating91]

Russia had to break the Olympic truce three (!) times before the Russian NOC was suspended...

Breaking the Olympic truce means being at war during the Olympics right? I can name you one country that was fighting illegal wars during all the Olympics from 2002-2021.

I can also name you another country right now who fighting an illegal war. Their leader has an arrest warrant over his head for genocide, and crimes against humanity. Those athletes are not banned.

You are entitled to believe Russian athletes should be banned, but only if you apply your arguments to all countries involved in illegal invasions. To not apply this consistently makes it look like Russian athletes are being victimised and discriminated against.

 

[Skating91]

Then ROC should have selected one of them. And it's been well and truly established except for cheaters' apologists that the lab was not incompetent, the whole and entire blame goes to the skater's team and federation. ROC is being punished (if this slap on the wrist can be called punishment) by and for their own record of dishonesty, cheating and lying.

No, they shouldn't have selected Trusova or Shcherbakova, Valieva beat them by wide margins throughout that entire season. Shcherbakova didn't have a triple axel so you couldn't put her in the short program ahead of Valieva, Trusova basically never landed her 3A. In the free skate, Valieva had similar technical content to Trusova but much better consistency.

The lab is the reason why Valieva skated at the Olympics. They were supposed to have returned the result by mid January (20 day limit), instead Valieva didn't receive the result until mid-February (conveniently hours after the free skates what are the odds of that?).

The lab kept retesting Valieva's sample and had to come up with new methods of testing the sample until they received the positive result. Quite extraordinary. I'm sure they don't do that with the thousands of samples they receive every year.

Even if you don't want to blame the lab, how can you blame Valieva or ROC? They are 100% blameless.

 

[Skating91]

As abhorrent and unacceptable as Russians' behavior was from the moment when they knowingly put an athlete with an outstanding doping control test on the team and thereafter, apparently the highest international authority didn't accuse her of deliberately cheating in Russian Nationals. Valieva entered team competition with an unknown doping test result. Individual competition, she was known to have been positive for prohibited substance in the past. Team, no. Not that it excuses the RusFed negligence in any way, and the blame for the medal mess lay squarely on them, not WADA or laboratory.

If WADA's lab had returned the result within 20 days as they are obliged to do, then Valieva would not have competed.

I'm sure there are plenty of athletes at these games with samples that have not been tested, it would be so unfair for them to get the point of making an Olympics but have to withdraw because a lab can't do its job.

Only 1% or less samples ever test positive, plus figure skating is a sport where there are generally less use of performance enhancing drugs.

So Valieva should have been withdrawn from the team event at the last moment because of a 1 in 100 or even 1 in 200 chance of there being a problem with her sample?

Not to mention that athletes in the past who have competed in events with a sample outstanding that was later found to be positive, have not had the results from those events annulled. Valieva was chosen in good faith.

 

[lariko]

If WADA's lab had returned the result within 20 days as they are obliged to do, then Valieva would not have competed.

I'm sure there are plenty of athletes at these games with samples that have not been tested, it would be so unfair for them to get the point of making an Olympics but have to withdraw because a lab can't do its job.

Only 1% or less samples ever test positive, plus figure skating is a sport where there are generally less use of performance enhancing drugs.

So Valieva should have been withdrawn from the team event at the last moment because of a 1 in 100 or even 1 in 200 chance of there being a problem with her sample?

Not to mention that athletes in the past who have competed in events with a sample outstanding that was later found to be positive, have not had the results from those events annulled. Valieva was chosen in good faith.

The composition of the team wasn’t established till the last possible moment with Russians sitting on it. The fact that the test was so late while the lab refined the technique specifically to avoid the false positive for the substance should have been a red flag. I am sure it was, that's why Russians delayed announcement of team composition to the point of traumatizing the team members who sat late into the night waiting to find out who skates.

There was nothing in the documents that indicated communication from the lab to the RusFed about the first detection and the second and third round of technique refinement retesting they did to zero in on the peak on the chromatogram they needed to read without any ambiguity. Doing anything else would have been negligence. I do not know the protocol for it and there was no email chains or whatever about it that I had seen. If the lab was supposed to notify about potential positive and didn’t, then yes, blame the lab. If they didn't have to communicate until final result was in, or if they did communicate and Russians ignored it, in these cases, the lab didn't break the rules.

Lab's TAT is not an obligation, unless they paid for rush, it is an estimate how long the anaytical takes. As long as the sample is not compromised in storage or chain of custody is interupted, time over usual TAT is not a breach of any rules or protocols. It's been a while, but iirc the lab was within TAT actually, just on the higher end of the range.I am someone who dealt and deals with lab data and labs for over twenty years, so yeah, I know this shit.

If I was RusFed and had two stellar skaters with all their tests back and clean, and one with an outstanding and inexplicably--or, indeed, explicably--delayed I would have never ever risked putting Valieva into team event. It's a virtual no-brainer.

Other countries who only have one athlete to put in, that's a justifiable risk. In Russian situation it was so unjustified, it bordered on gross negligence and sheer, outright avos' stupidity.

So, bronze is a generous consolation prize.

 

[TallyT]

Even if you don't want to blame the lab, how can you blame Valieva or ROC? They are 100% blameless.

She was the one who ingested the damn drug, mate, do not insult my intelligence further with fairy tales about strawberry desserts and imaginary grandfathers. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, ROC have done their absolute damndest to create and then polish a sky-high reputation for cheating and doping and flouting the rules for donkeys' years now, if they hadn't shown total contempt for honest competition and the sport as a whole the samples would not have had to be sent out of the country to be tested. It all happened because neither they nor their athletes were trustworthy, and That. Is. On. Them.

I was and still am sorry for her, she was only 15 but my 10 year old niblings know that if they cheat and get caught, there are consequences. And ROC are actually 0% blameless, they brought the whole mess on themselves.