Kimmie Messiner article

[MKFSfan]

Actually, I thought Kimmie did a 3lz/3toe in the SP at the Games, yet struggled to tack on a 2toe in the SP at Worlds??? I thought overall, her Worlds SP was better, minus the combo, her spins seemed stronger as well. She also skated early in Turin, which may be the reason for low scores. I realize you are talking PCS here, but all in all, I think her Worlds SP was stronger, minus the combo mistake.

Just what I remember! I was hoping to view both skates back to back on youtube to refresh my memory, but the site won't load the videos.

 

[Mathman]

Chuckm, thanks for the repost. I think we didn't catch that it was the Short Program that you were speaking of, the first time around.

My first impression was that the scoring at Worlds was tougher overall than at the Olympics. But I was just looking at the ladies SP results, and it seems to be a mixed bag.

MKFSfan, yes, I'm pretty sure you are right about the combinations. Kimmie's Olympic tech score was two points higher than worlds, because of that whopping 10.0 she got on her first element. That almost exactly balanced the lower PCSs.

Olympics: TES 34.20 PCS 25.20 TSS 59.40
World Ch: TES 32.23 PCS 27.94 TSS 60.17

I do think that Kimmie was somewhat undermarked in program components in Torino. But remember that the judges had to "leave room" for Arakawa and Slutskaya. Without those two at Calgary, the judges could move Kimmie up a couple of slots, say from the 6.25-6.5 range to 7.0.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do think that Kimmie was somewhat undermarked in program components in Torino. But remember that the judges had to "leave room" for Arakawa and Slutskaya. Without those two at Calgary, the judges could move Kimmie up a couple of slots, say from the 6.25-6.5 range to 7.0.

I remember when we first started to speak about the Cop, I carried on (not unusual) that if you were in the penultimate group to skate, it would still be difficult to move to the podium. Others, quite rightly, pointed out that with the 'new' scoring system, it didn't matter when you skated, your scores would be what you did and not compared to others.

So without comparisons, the 'leaving room' argument should have gone out with the 6.0 system.

To compare two separate competitions with two separate sets of judges doesn't quite justify the old 'leaving room' argument of the 6.0 system. If I were a judge I would not worry about previous scores of a past competition, but just score on the immediate competition.

Joe

 

[MKFSfan]

I don't believe that. Obviously, Kimmie skated better than the favorite in the LP at Worlds and the judges rewarded her heavily to be sure she overtook Sasha. She deserved to win Worlds, don't get me wrong, but why the HUGE PCS increase? I actually thought Sasha was overmarked-she made more mistakes and did not have much spark yet her scores reflected otherwise.

When you compare what skaters in the earlier groups get for PCS to what skaters in later groups get, it's clear there's an increase. Michelle, with a clean skate and great basic skating skills, was held back at Worlds 2005in the PCS in the SP (I'm NOT contesting her TES marks as she did not up her levels), yet skaters with mistakes that would be very costly under 6.0 scored higher. So, I agree with those who say PCS has become place marks AND those who say PCS reflects the TES.

Judges clearly save marks no matter which system is used.

 

[R.D.]

...because judges are human. And that's the problem with judging.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It seems that if you are not in the last group to skate, your PCS scores will not be based on the 5 part breakdown as much as those in the last group to skate. Certain parts of the PCS scores are irrelevant to the actual skate, e.g., choreography.

It would be nice if a member would go over the scores of the different parts of the PCS and see how they compare with each other in the same group and how they compare with other groups.

Was there much difference between Sasha and Kimmie in Wilson's and Nichols choreography? How do these ladies compare with Korpi?

Much of the scores in the PCS parts, imo, are personal tastes of the judges, and very much in the same vein as the 6.0 system.

Joe

 

[MKFSfan]

It seems that if you are not in the last group to skate, your PCS scores will not be based on the 5 part breakdown as much as those in the last group to skate. Certain parts of the PCS scores are irrelevant to the actual skate, e.g., choreography.

It would be nice if a member would go over the scores of the different parts of the PCS and see how they compare with each other in the same group and how they compare with other groups.

Was there much difference between Sasha and Kimmie in Wilson's and Nichols choreography? How do these ladies compare with Korpi?

Much of the scores in the PCS parts, imo, are personal tastes of the judges, and very much in the same vein as the 6.0 system.

Joe

That's what I wonder...

To me, Kimmie had a stronger skate all around in the Worlds LP, yet her SS was lower than Sasha's. For once, Fumie was acknowledge as the better skater, but barely. Kimmie and Fumie had better edges, more speed, more landed jumps and no falls. Isn't that what Skating Skills are about??? Yes, Sasha had better above the skate skating, superior flexibility/extensions and beautiful positions, but I don't think that should be a big part of skating skill components so I really don't get how she could be marked so close to anyone who skated a solid program.

IMO, Sasha's program had more interpretation in relation to the music, both through her elements and gestures, so give her the Interpretation/Choreo. marks.

I don't think anyone really deserved high transition marks, what transitions?

As for the PE-Kimmie came on and executed her program perfectly and should have received top marks-her scores ranged from a 6.75 to a 8.25! That's a big range. Sasha had mistakes and didn't really skate full out yet still got rather high marks here-7.50-8.25.

Joannie was the only one not finishing in the top 6 who received above 7 in PCS. It's kinda hard to do a comparsion without rewatching everyone's skate without some list of requirements of what needs to be done to get what score in front of you. But I think that because the top 6 heading into the LP tend to be the ones to finish in the top 6, the judges automatically judge them higher, even if someone in the 2nd to last group may be deserving of such marks.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think a comparison of the subtopics of the PCS scores in the Worlds might make it clear that some skaters are getting higher subtopic scores than others which may or may not be justified. then with the repeat of Worlds coming up shortly, we can check it out.

Thought the problem with PCS scores, imo, is that so much of it is subjective, not unlike the scores of the 6.0 system.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Actually, it does not alarm me that Program Component Scores are subjective. Not only are judges "only human," as Red Dog puts it, but also, they are judges. It is the responsibility of the judges to use their experience and training to form a judgement about which performance they thought was best.

Although the CoP tries to provide guidelines, I don't think this aspect of the sport will ever change.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, it does not alarm me that Program Component Scores are subjective. Not only are judges "only human," as Red Dog puts it, but also, they are judges. It is the responsibility of the judges to use their experience and training to form a judgement about which performance they thought was best.

Although the CoP tries to provide guidelines, I don't think this aspect of the sport will ever change.

You are quite correct but neither will I consider their responsibilities as correct.
Subjectivity rules in the PCS scores as it does in the GoE scores

Where is the responsibility when there is so much variation between the judges? With all that experience and training I would expect the results to be much more uniform than I've seen. Remember, it only takes 1point to win the title. And yes, it will never change.

Joe

 

[dancindiva03]

What i don't think is that it was performed sooooo much better than it was athe Olympics to warrant the much higher PCS marks. Like MM, i agree, there's nothing like landing two 3/3s to make the judges mark your transitions and choreography much higher - same as 6.0 - ask Goebel!

Ant

I think that the big difference between the two performances was confidence. Kimmie seemed much more sure of herself in Calgary which really improved the overall appearance of the program IMHO.

 

[chuckm]

Fumie's FS performance was far from perfect, and Sasha's was an unmitigated disaster, yet the judges marked both with very high PCS scores, higher than Kimmie's. When you consider how well Kimmie skated, her PCS scores don't seem that out of proportion by comparison to the other two. They only seem high because Kimmie's PCS scores had consistently been marked down (just as Joannie Rochette's had been in previous seasons).

61.35 7.64 7.43 7.64 7.75 7.89 Sasha World FS
60.29 7.68 7.25 7.57 7.61 7.57 Fumie World FS
60.23 7.61 7.25 7.71 7.50 7.57 Kimmie World FS

What is truly laughable are Sasha's high TR and IN scores. Most of her transitions were marred by the falls and fights for landings, and she spent most of her FS trying to stay on her feet rather than interpreting the music.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that the big difference between the two performances was confidence. Kimmie seemed much more sure of herself in Calgary which really improved the overall appearance of the program IMHO.

It was clear in Calgary that when she put down the two 3x3s the rest of the program was clear sailing. I don't think she thought of gold but there was that look of satisfaction on her face that she was skating her best. Nice lady. Not into I'm the best attitude but there is inner strength to win.

Joe

 

[soogar]

What is truly laughable are Sasha's high TR and IN scores. Most of her transitions were marred by the falls and fights for landings, and she spent most of her FS trying to stay on her feet rather than interpreting the music.

The only thing Sasha had problems with at Worlds were her jumps. The rest of her program was performed well. She was not stumbling around between the jumps. The last time I looked, transistions were what happened between the jumps and not jump landings.

 

[Mathman]

The only thing Sasha had problems with at Worlds were her jumps. The rest of her program was performed well.

Oh, I don't agree at all. I thought she looked like a zombie out there. To me, she didn't do anything well.

If you had said that about her LP in the Olympics -- that the only thing she had problems with were the jumps, and the rest was fine -- I would agree.

 

[chuckm]

According to the ISU Definition of "Transitions": "the varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements....this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements". Jumps are technical elements; falls and wonky or shaky landings (exits) take away from the smooth transition from one move to the next. In Sasha's FS, four of her 7 jumping passes received -GOE because she fell or bobbled the jump.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It seems to me that when Sasha comes so close to winning (Dortmund and Calgary) she fumbles. First places in QRs and SPs. (Moscow was a definite win for Irina but because Sasha was not a favorite, she skated very well.)

Joe

 

[R.D.]

I don't think it matters whether she's 1st or not (check out 05 nats and worlds for example). It's simply a "weakness" of hers. But not an uncommon one.

 

[soogar]

According to the ISU Definition of "Transitions": "the varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements....this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements". Jumps are technical elements; falls and wonky or shaky landings (exits) take away from the smooth transition from one move to the next. In Sasha's FS, four of her 7 jumping passes received -GOE because she fell or bobbled the jump.

You cut out some pieces but when I read this, I take it to mean that a jump exit is an element that can be linked; and is not a transition. Though maybe in Plush's case jump exits are transitions which is why he scored so well doing only crossover and landing his jumps.

 

[chuckm]

The entire quote: "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. In singles, pairs and synchronized skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements".

The italics indicate the part I didn't include. Look it up yourself.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

The meaning is clear: a "Transition" begins at the exit of a technical element and ends with the entrance into the next technical element. Therefore, if a jump is landed so poorly that the skater either falls or noticeably fights for a landing, the bad landing is part of the transition. By the same token, if there are steps into the next element and the skater stumbles on the entrance into a jump, that also detracts from the quality of the transition.