Kimmie's Chore: Replace Teen Zest w/Polished Art

[enlight78]

I personally think Kimmie's biggest problem right now is general inconsistency on her jumps. Forget the triple Axel--she wasn't even able to consistently land her triple Lutz or her triple/triples this season. That's a problem. She doesn't *need* the triple Axel to win--but she does need solid triple/triples. Just look at Yu-Na and Miki. They won the biggest events of the year primarily on the strength of their triple/triples.

HERE HERE:yes:

 

[R.D.]

I personally think Kimmie's biggest problem right now is general inconsistency on her jumps. Forget the triple Axel--she wasn't even able to consistently land her triple Lutz or her triple/triples this season. That's a problem. She doesn't *need* the triple Axel to win--but she does need solid triple/triples. Just look at Yu-Na and Miki. They won the biggest events of the year primarily on the strength of their triple/triples.

True that, and that's what I was getting at earlier- she needs to work on getting those jumps down pat again, even if it means sacrificing some "presentation", because the lack of it doesn't seem to prevent her from approaching the top. Interesting what she'll come up with next year. I wonder if we've seen the absolute best of her already (at 2006 worlds), 'cause that won't be easy to duplicate.

 

[jsteam4501s]

No - Kimmie's biggest problem is advice from people who think she has problems. I sometimes get the feeling that if NOBODY on the entire planet ever said to ANYBODY "You need to do this", EVERYBODY would be better off, and would improve, if needed, on their own. In other words, advice? Shmice!

Whoa, now. I'm not talking about parents' advice to their own children.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think all this chatter about Kimmie is not necessary. She has proven herself to be the 4th place lady in the world. Her closest competitor is Carolina Kostner and she is overall less dependable than Kimmie's 3A.

If Kimmie squeezes out one of the 3 now above her, she will be making progress. Let's check out this season's GPs.

Joe

 

[Wolfgang]

Kimmie is fine just the way she is.
She's naturally more the 'athletic' rather than the 'artistic' type of skater, and that's ok.
I'm sure she's feeling the 'pressure' from the even younger ladies, that's the price you pay in a sport where you're a washed up grandma by the age of 20......
Worlds in Japan was exactly that, there was no realistic way any non-Asian skater was going to be on the podium, not in one of the most cliquish sports there is, not in one of the most protectionist countries on the planet.
Kimmie's 4th place is a tribute to how good she really is.......

 

[redhotcoach]

No - Kimmie's biggest problem is advice from people who think she has problems. I sometimes get the feeling that if NOBODY on the entire planet ever said to ANYBODY "You need to do this", EVERYBODY would be better off, and would improve, if needed, on their own. In other words, advice? Shmice!

Whoa, now. I'm not talking about parents' advice to their own children.

Absolutely right on! Unless everyone on this forum is a high level elite coach or an elite olympic skater -- then we have no idea what is good for any athlete or what coaching decision is the right one. Let's face it - it is far easier to be an arm-chair expert than to actually face the pressure and challenges that they face.

Sure we can comment on what our opinions are -- that's the fun of forums, but in reality we have no idea why Kimmie's jumps have changed or if she really did forgo jump practice to work on presentation.

My humble guess is, that at 17 almost 18 - Kimmie has undergone the usual teenage growth problems, even if she is a slight thing, and changes to timing, balance and mindset happen to everyone eventually. That's why we shouldn't be so quick to declare Mirai and Caroline the next champions - even Mao - until their little girl bodies go through the eventual change into that of an adult.

BTW Kimmie's triple axel is definitely cheated...no matter what Dick Button and others say when she performs it.....and that is probably why she doesn't include it in her programs. That's not to say that she won't eventually clean it up. It's easy to through yourself in the air but that last little rotation is the hardest - so best wishes to her!

 

[Zuranthium]

If you replay it, and remember the position she took off, and compared that to the position she first landed the jump, it's definitely short of 3.5 rotations, but by how much? That's the key.

No Triple Axle is actually 3.5 rotations in the air. EVERYONE pre-rotates at least a quarter turn. A good 3Axle is 3 1/4 revolutions; a passable one is 3. The one Kimmie did at Nationals in 2005 was 3, so she's fine. She needs to work on her 3Toe's in combination, however.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Pre-rotating a forward outside edge to execute an axel is DANGEROUS If one is a skater; one knows that. If one watches Mao she takes off on her forward outside edge from a back inside or flat of the other skate. This way she can not pre rotate the take off.

Regardless of Kimmie's 3A, it appeared in Tokyo that the winner was 3Aless.

Joe

 

[redhotcoach]

I agree with you Joesitz......There are coaches that specifically teach a skater to cheat the take-off edge on all jumps.......singles, doubles triples and quads. Lots of young skaters think that they have a double axel or double salchow etc. when in fact, they cheat the takeoff substantially and land on what appears to be a clean edge. In fact, I saw a coach teach a triple salchow the other day as a back inside 3-turn take-off into a double axel. Unfortunately for the skater, they couldn't do the entire move as one unit and it looked like a bad double axel.

While the new judging system hasn't specifically dealt with the bad take-off edge yet -- it will and those skaters who 'cheat' will end up losing credit for their jumps.

A true triple axel or double axel - takes off from a running edge pressing down on the back of the blade and rolling off the toe as the free-leg launches the skater into the air and into the backspin position.

I have skaters who can do a triple axel then - if by definition 3 revolutions are indeed a triple axel! Or if a double axel is then just 2 revolutions, with the rest on the ice.......Wouldn't want to put those jumps in a real program under the new judging system, but under 6.0 -- definitely they would have counted big time!

As I said previously, it is that last bit of rotation on all jumps that challenge most skaters.......

 

[Tinymavy15]

BTW Kimmie's triple axel is definitely cheated...no matter what Dick Button and others say when she performs it.....and that is probably why she doesn't include it in her programs. That's not to say that she won't eventually clean it up. It's easy to through yourself in the air but that last little rotation is the hardest - so best wishes to her!

right. Her coach probably knows that she can not land a clean one, at least it's like a 1 in 30 shot. Not worth falling on and then being downgraded to a double.

 

[Zuranthium]

Pre-rotating a forward outside edge to execute an axel is DANGEROUS If one is a skater; one knows that. If one watches Mao she takes off on her forward outside edge from a back inside or flat of the other skate. This way she can not pre rotate the take off.

Perhaps pre-rotate was the wrong word (even though some skaters truly DO pre-rotate their 3Axles). When the skater STEPS into the jump and leaves the ice, they are not truly taking off from the direction they were skating, but a quarter turn past it. Some skaters additionally pre-rotate an extra quarter turn and others land in the same spot they took off from. A good deal of 3Axles out there are really just 3 turns and they are pretty much never an actual full 3 and 1/2.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Please name some of those 'some skaters' who prerotate their from the forward outside edge and are able to execute it correctly. :disagree: I've got to see that.

Whipping the free leg around which will have to be whipped - not thrust forward - the posture will be bad, and the skater will stumble if not fall.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

Please name some of those 'some skaters' who prerotate their from the forward outside edge and are able to execute it correctly. :disagree: I've got to see that.

Are you kidding me?

EVAN. LYSACEK.

Like, every single 3Axle he does.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Z - One skater. I will watch next time. I think I'm beginning to believe you haven't really ever skated.,
I can't imagine a skater pointing towards north and grinding his edge to west and making an axel.

 

[Mathman]

But Z. is right about Lysacek. His technique is to pre-rotate 90 degrees, stick his leg out to the side, and push up off the whole blade sideways. It looks pretty weird if you watch his feet closely.

Here is his U.S. Nationals LP. The triple Axel is the second element.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvZOecF6rKs

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

sorry guys and thanks for the link MM. He does seem to move his skating leg from north to south (180 degrees) with a toe rake dug in for the jump. His landing seems to be in accordance with the south where he dug in. Am I correct? It is a clever cheat. Any judge catch it? I didn't and I was right there.
I'm dumb. What can I say?

What I was thinking of for an overroated axel one would cheat a 46 degree turn on the ice which would not work. That'll only work on Loop and Salchow jumps.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

This all is making sense, and have to wonder if all jumps are truly rotated if such is the case.
3f is really a 2.75
????
3a is really 3.125
??? etc...

Anyhow, at this point I am starting to feel the same way I do about basketball calls, to many "ticky tack bullcrap" calls. Just a temporary feeling the topic has left me with. I realize it is necessary to define and judge "GoE" but the conversation is making me think, just let them skate. Like I said, just the feeling I am getting, because it sounds so "ticky tack."

IMO, the jump starts the very millisecond the leg / edge starts to "push off." No judge here in SeaniBu land, but still never heard whether the angle of the blade as soon as it leaves the ice or as the jump starts is the designating factor in what the landing angle is.

Sometimes more questions get brought up than answered, I'll deal with it.

But sometimes questions get answered that never were asked, so I 'spose it is all good anyhoo.:agree:

btw, even my not so "verse" friends notice Evan's (what they call) "snowplow" prior to the jump. My guess is it either is getting marked down or it doesn't matter like some think it does / should. IMO it is marked down.
???

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

btw, even my not so "verse" friends notice Evan's (what they call) "snowplow" prior to the jump. My guess is it either is getting marked down or it doesn't matter like some think it does / should. IMO it is marked down.
???

I know from skiiing days what a snow plough is. It would be two feet pointing in. If we put one skate on a forward inside edge (half of snow plough), it would be that much more rotation he would need to jump since the jump starts with a forward outside edge. Much easier to do it legitimately.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

I know from skiiing days what a snow plough is.

Is that really how it is spelled? I didn't know that.

And yes, I always say it is more of a "Stem Christie" (not sure on that spelling either) but I guess in hockey they start you out with a snowplow as to train you prior to a "one foot snowplow." ???? So I hear anyhoo, I've never taken hockey lessons and would just think of it as a edge slide stop, but looks a lot like the stop I first learned on skis, that was basically a "hard Stem Christie" to a stop. ???? And the fact it is the outside edge, welll that just throws the whole comment out the window.
:agree:

Anyhoo, still wish I could get a clear answer on the angle of "take off and landing."*shrugs* or even the point of entry being the moment the jump starts or is it the moment the blade leaves???? Ah the questions of life

 

[redhotcoach]

Snow plow is the North American way of spelling it ---- either on the slopes or clearing our roads....we plow our way through a dull book or plow a row of soil to sow seeds in.

In Britain, and English Europe -- it is a plough, as in ploughman's lunch (yummy). However, I am not sure just how much snow there is in Britain for a snow plow to plough