Kim's representatives end Orser's coaching relationship threads merged

[Mathman]

...the fact is, Brian improperly disclosed this matter publicly.

Unfortunately, that "improperly" takes this statement out of the realm of fact and into the category of judgement.

"Orser disclosed this matter publicly." That's fact.

 

[janetfan]

Unfortunately, that "impropoerly" takes this statement out of the realm of fact and into the category of judgement.

"Orser disclosed this matter publicly." That's fact.

And as I said which caused some silly fireworks - ATS did not go public with the split even after they downsized Orser. I said that was "undeniable" and nothing Yuna fans say can change that.

Do I have a link to that? Of course not. How can you link to something that never happened. :think:

 

[YunaBliss]

Unfortunately, that "impropoerly" takes this statement out of the realm of fact and into the category of judgement.

"Orser disclosed this matter publicly." That's fact.

No. I disagree. Based upon the fundamental principle of privacy that things between two private adults (especially in the context of employer-employee relationship or coach-pupil relationship) should stay private, Orser did improperly disclose the matter to public. I admit that this principle would not apply if there was a commission of a crime, and forgive me for taking a leap of faith that Yuna's side did not commit a crime here.

 

[Daniel5555]

Mathman
The music and the letters disclosion was simply rude. And I can't believe that Brian doesn't know basic rules like those or the cultural significance of "Arirang".

Unfortunately, that "impropoerly" takes this statement out of the realm of fact and into the category of judgement.

"Orser disclosed this matter publicly." That's fact.

We can make judgements based on facts. I don't know what Yuna did, only Brian said something about it. But I know what Brian did. And what he did was wrong, not in the terms of disclosing it, but in terms how he did so.
It's also interesting, that Tracy didn't say a thing about it, which means that only Brian was going mad about it.

 

[Daniel5555]

And as I said which caused some silly fireworks - ATS did not go public with the split even after they downsized Orser. I said that was "undeniable" and nothing Yuna fans say can change that.

It's only Brian said, that he was fired or whatever. ATS said it was a temporary break which happened on 2. Aug and was made definitive after Brian's resignation on 23. Aug. How it can "undeniable" then? Check your mind.

One thing that really bothers me is that if Brian was really fired on 2. Aug, why he had a talk with ATS on 23. Aug? If he was fired, they didn't have to have any talk with him. They never talked with him after 23. Aug, when he was definitively fired, so if he was fired before, what's the point to talk with him again?
I suspect that what really happened is that initially ATS only wanted a temporary break with him which they said to him on 2. Aug. He could understand it as being fired, because of bad translation, but he actually wasn't... Another argument to support this is that as bad, as ATS management is, I don't think they are so bad that they wouldn't tell anyone from press about this. Besides they would already start to look for another coach in that case. What's the point of just sitting around and training alone, if you:
1) Announced that you will compete next year.
2) Fired your coach.

That does not compute.
Brian wasn't fired on 2. Aug. Maybe that's the lie Yuna was talking about.

 

[Mathman]

No. I disagree. Based upon the fundamental principle of privacy that things between two private adults (especially in the context of employer-employee relationship or coach-pupil relationship) should stay private.

"Should."

And what he did was wrong

"Wrong."

 

[Daniel5555]

Mathman, if you write a letter to your friend, will you disclose it publicly? Will you announce the plans of design change for this forum without asking the admin?

 

[janetfan]

No. I disagree. Based upon the fundamental principle of privacy that things between two private adults (especially in the context of employer-employee relationship or coach-pupil relationship) should stay private, Orser did improperly disclose the matter to public. I admit that this principle would not apply if there was a commission of a crime, and forgive me for taking a leap of faith that Yuna's side did not commit a crime here.

Based on the fundamental principle of freedom of speech Brian or anyone that gets terminated or let go has the right to discuss it in private or public. Without a contract with a confidentiality agreement Brian has every right to speak out.

This ATS "cones of silence" style of managegment is totally alien to me. Sure Nazis and Commies could enforce such laws - but not in Canada and most other countries that have respect for their citizens.

If ATS thinks Brian broke laws by discussing his firing or by mentioning Yuna's new LP music they can "level of management" him. But realistically that would bring more bad publicity and most likely raise the profile of this messy split to the realms of late night TV one-liners and SNL skits.

I doubt ATS wants that but they are free to try if they think it will make things better for them.
I can see Letterman with a "Top 10" list of reasons that Yuna left Brian. Or better yet how about Tina Fey with a little make-up doing to Yuna what she has done to Sarah Palin.
Yum, yum

 

[Daniel5555]

janetfan

Based on the fundamental principle of freedom of speech Brian or anyone that gets terminated or let go has the right to discuss it in private or public. Without a contract with a confidentiality agreement Brian has every right to speak out.

Of course. It's a matter of education. Disclosing personal letters is considered a bad education. Announcing the details of a program too. Making interviews like asking everyone to pity him is something more of habit of a yellow press star, than of honorable coach and legendary skater. But it's ok, he was just very hurt. So this won't affect how we perceive him.

This ATS "cones of silence" style of managegment is totally alien to me.

Yeah, it's not a best style. But if the matter is private, it can stay private and no one can demand to disclose it.
And, besides, this style of management is used not only in ATS.

For example, on this forum I asked the moderators stuff to explain me, why my previous post, which didn't contain anything wrong in my opinion, disappeared. No one said anything to me. Same style of management in different company. But that's OK. No one can be forced to disclose anything, I just wish everyone would apply the same judgement to ATS.

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, if you write a letter to your friend, will you disclose it publicly? Will you announce the plans of design change for this forum without asking the admin?

That is a different question. The question I was speaking to is, what is the difference betweena fact and a judgement.

A fact is "what happened." Statements about what a person should or should not do are not facts.

 

[seniorita]

Will you announce the plans of design change for this forum without asking the admin?

oh no, dont change the design again, I like the last season changes

 

[Nadia01]

Of course. It's a matter of education. Disclosing personal letters is considered a bad education. Announcing the details of a program too. Making interviews like asking everyone to pity him is something more of habit of a yellow press star, than of honorable coach and legendary skater. But it's ok, he was just very hurt. So this won't affect how we perceive him.

If you're referring to the email Brian disclosed, which HE wrote to Yuna, then he didn't do anything wrong, unless there was some kind of nondisclosure agreement that said he couldn't show anybody anything he wrote / said to Yuna & so on.

I would find it very offensive if Brian had disclosed an email that Yuna wrote to him, with the understanding that it would remain private.

 

[YunaBliss]

Based on the fundamental principle of freedom of speech Brian or anyone that gets terminated or let go has the right to discuss it in private or public. Without a contract with a confidentiality agreement Brian has every right to speak out.

This ATS "cones of silence" style of managegment is totally alien to me. Sure Nazis and Commies could enforce such laws - but not in Canada and most other countries that have respect for their citizens.

If ATS thinks Brian broke laws by discussing his firing or by mentioning Yuna's new LP music they can "level of management" him. But realistically that would bring more bad publicity and most likely raise the profile of this messy split to the realms of Late night one-liners and SNL skits.

I doubt ATS wants that but they are free to try if they think it will make things better for them.
I can see Letterman with a "Top 10" list of reasons that Yuna left Brian. Or better yet how about Tina Fey with a little make-up doing to Yuna what she has done to Sarah Palin.
Yum, yum

I tend to think that a right to privacy prevails over a right to freedom of speech in this context. Granted, this is not exactly a doctor publicly disclosing a patient's symptom, or a lawyer disclosing his client's secrets, but you see where I am coming from.

And I think most countries that have respect for their citizens would agree with me.

 

[Daniel5555]

Mathman

That is a different question. The question I was speaking to is, what is the difference betweena fact and a judgement.

A fact is "what happened." Statements about what a person should or should not do are not facts.

I understand.
So we have those two facts. There is a video where Brian shows this letter and an article with a quote from him. Those are facts. And we can make a judgement based on those facts, which will be an easy one, because it's pretty clear if that was ethical or not.

And again, there is nothing wrong with that he talked about the issue. I just really don't understand why he had to talk like this. He has all the rights of the world to make his complaints publicly about if Yuna disrespectful to him and so. What is not not good to do is hurting a person you worked with for the last 4 years. This is another fact, because there are people who saw Yuna crying in the Club where she is a member and pays money for being there. And she was recommended to "leave the Club" too. That's another fact.

Everything else are not facts yet, because no one can confirm them. "Brian lies" - not a fact, only Yuna said so. "Yuna was disrespectful to me" - not a fact, only Brian said so. Not even Tracy.

It's very good, that you point us to a facts and remind us that we should separate facts from judgements. Meanwhile, though, we have a poster that represents his judgements as facts ("undeniable") and even says things, that not only are unconfirmed facts, but sometimes are directly false. And it's not that only I see it, but others also see it. And you don't say anything about this...

 

[babayaga]

It's only Brian said, that he was fired or whatever. ATS said it was a temporary break which happened on 2. Aug and was made definitive after Brian's resignation on 23. Aug. How it can "undeniable" then? Check your mind.

Hi everyone. I've been reading these discussions for a while now and one think that still confuses me much is this "temporary break" idea. Did they provide any dates when the "break" was supposed to be over? What happens during the break? If the information we have from ATS is correct I think I would also be confused if I were Brian... Daniel5555 you seem to understand what they meant, would you please explain? Thanks.

 

[janetfan]

I tend to think that a right to privacy prevails over a right to freedom of speech in this context. Granted, this is not exactly a doctor publicly disclosing a patient's symptom, or a lawyer disclosing his client's secrets, but you see where I am coming from.

And I think most countries that have respect for their citizens would agree with me.

I respectfully disagree with you. I can sympathize with Yuna and Brian. I can even sympathize with ATS which is a very new agency.

But whether you like it or not there are laws which supercede your opinions on this matter.
I wish it had happened differently for both Yuna and Brian.
I was happy to see a post this morning that Yuna has not missed much practice and has a new rink for training.
I thought the news was good and had a nice, let's move on from this tone.

 

[Nadia01]

I tend to think that a right to privacy prevails over a right to freedom of speech in this context. Granted, this is not exactly a doctor publicly disclosing a patient's symptom, or a lawyer disclosing his client's secrets, but you see where I am coming from.

And I think most countries that have respect for their citizens would agree with me.

You can't possibly compare a coach/athlete relationship to something like a doctor / patient & lawyer / client relationship. The latter two categories must maintain confidentiality BY LAW.

There's no law that says a coach can't complain about their athletes publicly (regardless of whether it's wise or not). Unless there's a nondisclosure / confidentiality agreement between the two, they can say whatever they want about each other publicly.

 

[Daniel5555]

Nadia01

If you're referring to the email Brian disclosed, which HE wrote to Yuna, then he didn't do anything wrong, unless there was some kind of nondisclosure agreement that said he couldn't show anybody anything he wrote / said to Yuna & so on.

I don't know, if those are cultural differences or something, but I always thought it's rude to disclose your own letter if it was meant for only one person. You can explain what it was about, but not disclose it. That just how I perceive it in any situation, not only in this particular situation with Brian.

 

[Nadia01]

Nadia01

I don't know, if those are cultural differences or something, but I always thought it's rude to disclose your own letter if it was meant for only one person. You can explain what it was about, but not disclose it. That just how I perceive it in any situation, not only in this particular situation with Brian.

Maybe it is.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. Brian wrote the email for Yuna, but he decided to share it with other people himself...? I see nothing wrong w/ it & maybe I suspect that others don't, esp. since the letter didn't contain any confidential information about Yuna that could damage her career and reputation.

But if he'd shared letters Yuna wrote him without her explicit written permission, I'd be incredibly upset over it b/c that's just low, altho there are people who think it's okay to share letters you got from other people as well.

 

[janetfan]

Nadia01

I don't know, if those are cultural differences or something, but I always thought it's rude to disclose your own letter if it was meant for only one person. You can explain what it was about, but not disclose it. That just how I perceive it in any situation, not only in this particular situation with Brian.

I think it seems much ruder that ATS brought Mao into their own mess. That imo was uncalled for and rude.
It was also what made a few posters realize ATS had no idea how to deal with this situation.