Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[DaveT]

3 Eastern judges and 3 questionable ties to the old Soviet system or just plain Pro European: Germany, Denmark, Finland.

I believe Inman to be a fair judge. Although he enjoys musicality and preferred Kwan in that batch, his giving 1st to Sarah is in line with the points she would have earned in CoP.

In previous contests, Denmark would never give Kwan a 1st.

Italy would always give Sasha 1st.

Joe

Wasn't Inman quoted as saying he put Michelle 3rd in the LP even though he thought she should be ahead of Irina because he thought Sarah should win?

 

[Mathman]

^ No, Inman never said anything except that he scored the contest correctly as he saw it, to the best of his abilities. Conspiracy theorists came up with these other scenarios afterwords.

Ironically, the New York Times, not understanding OBO, came out with a big article the next day claining that if Inman had changed his vote then Michelle would have won. He took a lot of heat from Michelle fans, LOL.

 

[Sylvia]

Wasn't Inman quoted as saying he put Michelle 3rd in the LP even though he thought she should be ahead of Irina because he thought Sarah should win?

From a 2/23/02 NY Times article, Joe Inman replied to a question about whether he alone could have changed the outcome as follows:

"That's what I've been told, but I don't even think about that," said Inman, who ranked Hughes first, followed by Slutskaya and Kwan.
"I'm judging the free skating. If I thought about anything else, that's wrong. This is what she deserves for this certain performance. I don't know what the other judges are doing. But I knew what I had to do. I knew why I did what I did.
"Michelle and Irina both had problems connecting steps. Irina was better in the spins. Irina was better in the jumps. That's what did it for me between Irina and Michelle."

However, under the OBO accounting system that was in use for the SLC Olympics, Kwan would have needed TWO more judges to have placed her ahead of Slutskaya in order to have placed 2nd in the free skate.

ETA: Mathman, LOL!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But Irina had 4 first place ordinals and Hughes had 2 as low as 4th, that was fair judging? ESPECIALLY considering what has just happened, there were clearly judges trying to cheat, they DIDN'T CARE what had just happened, Irina needed just one more to win.

Hughes 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Slute 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
Kwan 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

If you believe in the rules of judging at that time. Hughes won. That's how the scoreing was. Over and Out.

How clearly the cheating? It was more that The western European judges had done their job to dump Kwan. The eastern judges was ovious. Little did they know that another American skater was still actively in contention. What fools these Euro judges be.

I like Irina and had she won I would have been satified but she did not skate her best that night and Huges rose to the occasion. That's the way it was in 6.0land.
Although I think Hughes would have had an easier win in CoP THAT NIGHT.
I wonder which Euro judge missed the plan to dump Hughes as well?
The Ladies Oly gold continues to evade a European Lady. I doubt Sara Meier could overtake Mao. If Slutskaya returns she will not do well. It's over for her and Kwan.

Edited to add that slutskayafan21 is a very objective and insightful poster considering her self identified Slutskaya fandom. You'll never get the Kwan-fan rep, to love Kwan obviously indicates you are mentally unbalanced from what I read.

That's an unmanly thing to say and careful of the Mods.

As for being a Kwaniac, I still put honest figure skating first - not nationality or ill wishes to another competitor.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is no best skater in the world. There is only a best skater at the conclusion of a competition and for that competition only. That's the way it is in Sportsland.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

:

However, under the OBO accounting system that was in use for the SLC Olympics, Kwan would have needed TWO more judges to have placed her ahead of Slutskaya in order to have placed 2nd in the free skate.

Kwan had five seconds and four thirds, while Slutskaya had four firsts and two seconds. If Inman had flipped his scores, Kwan would have had six seconds to Slutskayas four firsts and one second.

Why would she have to have had seven seconds to come in second in the LP?

 

[jennylovskt]

OT, do you know that generally speaking Italian FS fans prefer Sasha over Michelle. It's something that I've found interesting, when I was reading the discussions in Italian forums and listening the comments of Italian viewers on Eurosport, who were always pro-Sasha.

Wasn't it true that Irina, Sasha were more popular than Michelle in other countries outside of US, not only in Italy? At least that was the impression I got.

 

[Mafke]

Wasn't it true that Irina, Sasha were more popular than Michelle in other countries outside of US, not only in Italy? At least that was the impression I got.

In Poland, every announcer I ever heard definitely preferred both Slutskaya and Cohen to Kwan.

 

[gio]

Wasn't it true that Irina, Sasha were more popular than Michelle in other countries outside of US, not only in Italy? At least that was the impression I got.

I don't know in Asia, but probably in Europe Sasha and Irina are preferred to Michelle!! I don't know why, though. Maybe the style of skating.

 

[Mathman]

Kwan had five seconds and four thirds, while Slutskaya had four firsts and two seconds. If Inman had flipped his scores, Kwan would have had six seconds to Slutskayas four firsts and one second.

Why would she have to have had seven seconds to come in second in the LP?

I never completely mastered all the details of the OBO (one-by-one) system, but the main idea is something like this.

What you are describing in your question is the "majority of ordinals" method. This was used by the USFSA at U.S. competitions prior to the CoP, but not by the ISU in international competitions. Under the majority of ordinals system, you (and the New York Times) are right -- if Joe Inman had changed his vote Michelle would have won second in the free and first overall. It would have gone like this:

Sarah got 5 first place ordinals (out of nine). Nothing else matters. Sarah wins.

Irina would then have 5 first and second place ordinals and Michelle would have 6 first and second place ordinals. Michelle wins second place, 6 to 5.

BUT -- that's not OBO. Under OBO judging (a form of the Candorcet method), Sarah having beaten everyone head to head for first, now we go to Irina versus Michelle head to head. Changing Inman's vote to Michelle, Irina still wins with five judges preferring Irina and four preferring Michelle.

(The actual OBO system that the ISU used had some minor modifications to avoid the "Candorcet paradox" -- it is possible for A to beat B and B to beat C and C to beat A, leaving us without an unambiguous winner. Another intesting point is that someone can win without being the first choice of any of the judges.)

 

[Mathman]

Wasn't it true that Irina, Sasha were more popular than Michelle in other countries outside of US, not only in Italy? At least that was the impression I got.

Michelle is popular in Asia. Irina is popular in Europe. That doesn't seem so surprising.

 

[demarinis5]

This thread has really gone off topic. What does a skater's popularity have to do with not winning Olympic Gold. lol We could speculate forever why Irina and Michelle did not get the big one but I don't think popularity had anything to do with it.

 

[gio]

Michelle is popular in Asia. Irina is popular in Europe. That doesn't seem so surprising.

What is surprising is that in Italy (but I think in whole Europe aswell) Sasha is more popular than Michelle. The commentators prefer Sasha, the fans prefer Sasha...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What is surprising is that in Italy (but I think in whole Europe aswell) Sasha is more popular than Michelle. The commentators prefer Sasha, the fans prefer Sasha...

That is not surprising I wrote a thread on why Michelle wouldn't win 2004 Worlds. In it, I said she is not popular in Europe. I also said something like Irina, if she is up to it (she was ill) could win. Irina skated so so and was held up quite a bit. Sasha who should have won, blew it in the LP and guess who won: Shizuka! Shades of the upcoming Olys in 2006.

Joe

 

[gio]

That is not surprising I wrote a thread on why Michelle wouldn't win 2004 Worlds. In it, I said she is not popular in Europe. I also said something like Irina, if she is up to it (she was ill) could win. Irina skated so so and was held up quite a bit. Sasha who should have won, blew it in the LP and guess who won: Shizuka! Shades of the upcoming Olys in 2006.

Joe

Could you give me the link to that thread, or explain me in your opinion what is the reason that Europeans prefer Sasha over Michelle?

 

[Zuranthium]

Probably because Sasha has European heritage.

While we are sorta on the topic...I am quite glad that Sasha did not win Worlds in 2004 and 2005. Robin Wagner's programs are TRASH! Those long programs were totally vanilla and monotone.

~Z

 

[Mathman]

I think there are lots of reasons.

Quite a bit was made of Sasha’s “Russian” family background (Ukrainian, actually), especially when she left her British/American coach and went to Mrs. Tarassova. Sasha often chose music like Bright Eyes and Carmen. Plus, her classic “balletic” style struck a chord among many fans worldwide.

In contrast Michelle played up the “exotic East” in programs like Salome, Taj Mahal, Sheherazade and The Feeling Begins.

I don’t know whether ethnicity plays a role among U.S. fans or not. Some people thought that Kristi Yamaguchi did not reap the kind of endorsement bonanza that might have been expected for a U.S. ladies Olympic champ. Is figure skating becoming an “Asian sport” in the same way that U.S. basketball is a black sport, U.S. baseball is a Hispanic sport and U.S. hockey is a Skandinavian sport? Did some American fans find it easier to identify with the aspirations of Tara and Sasha than with Michelle’s?

In the second half of her career Michelle did not like to travel and never competed in Europe if she didn’t have to. Maybe some European fans felt snubbed. Plus, some of Michelle’s victories came at the expense of European competitors, whereas this did not happen so much with Sasha. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some sentiment among European fans along the lines of, Hmph, what’s so great about Michelle that they gave her five World Championships?

 

[Zuranthium]

In the second half of her career Michelle did not like to travel and never competed in Europe if she didn’t have to.

In 2004 and 2005 she definitely lost favor with some judges by totally ignoring the Grand Prix.

~Z

 

[R.D.]

this is OT but who was that interviewer in your sig Z? that's a good one

 

[Zuranthium]

I'm not sure of the person's name but it was from one of the articles that was posted on the front page! Pretty funny, hehehe.

~Z