Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[SeaniBu]

^good points. - 'bout the bashing.

I don't think there is any event that a athlete has not done their best and wanted to do better. Sure the Olys are a "big game" but regardless, any event, any athlete will want to do better - and some cases even when they win.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I dunno... Roz still spouts sour grapes when she talks about her near misses of gold... so I wouldn't use her as an example...

Sour about what? I have seen the competition on tape. Witt skated flawlessly in both short and long. Sumners could have wrapped up the gold medal(Witt would then have needed Roz to be 3rd in the long)by winning the short program and probably would have except for missing her double axel, a major deduction under the old rules. She then needed to win the long to win gold, Witt skated flawless again before her, her marks were very high but clearly left room, Sumners made 2 big mistakes at the very end, one of them was doubling a triple toe which gave her only 2 triples to Witt's 3 and she lost a 5-4 split. She would have won had she landed one of her last 2 jumps which she missed both.

 

[mkdream]

well, they could care less about skating outside of women's.

The picture is not wrong at all. I don't think it gets much simpler than two of the skaters who defined the (late) 90s and early 00's just simply had off-nights the two times they went to the Olympics, and someone else outskated them. However, it does remain that the Olympic champions have all won at least one world medal (in recent history, anyway). It must have hurt more the second time around, though, as both skaters got 2nd place the first time (MK in 98, IS in 02), and then slipped to third the second time (MK in 02, IS in 06). seems to be a recent trend in ladies that the silver medalist returns not to step up to gold, but to slip to bronze...

In their fans' eyes, they will always be "the greatest ever". In general, the numbers speak for themselves, and they'll just be added to that list of "great figure skaters who have never achieved an OGM".

Oh hell no!! They don't have an Olympic gold medal but any figure skating fan knows that Kwan and Slutskaya will go down in history as two of the greatest. Tara and Sarah will be remembered more for who they upset than being Olympic champ. What figure skaters says their favorite skater is Sarah Hughes? I'm sorry and I'm not trying to take anything away from them, they will always be Olympic champions.

 

[Tonichelle]

Sour about what? I have seen the competition on tape. Witt skated flawlessly in both short and long. Sumners could have wrapped up the gold medal(Witt would then have needed Roz to be 3rd in the long)by winning the short program and probably would have except for missing her double axel, a major deduction under the old rules. She then needed to win the long to win gold, Witt skated flawless again before her, her marks were very high but clearly left room, Sumners made 2 big mistakes at the very end, one of them was doubling a triple toe which gave her only 2 triples to Witt's 3 and she lost a 5-4 split. She would have won had she landed one of her last 2 jumps which she missed both.

I'm not Roz, so I wouldn't know why there would be... she just seems to still have some bitter feelings about that time... *shrugs* whether or not I think she should doesn't matter, it's just how I perceive the whole thing...

I could be wrong.


of the 'could have beens' I think Brian Orser's the one that has allowed it to be let go the most...

 

[judgejudy2780]

ITA! OGM does not equal to great skater(s), it says that at that competition the owner(s) of the OGM might have done the best job. That's it. (e.g. 2006 olympics pair). To me and apparently to many others, S/Z are the greatest in the past decade even without the OMG. But still, every great skater still wants to have an OMG

Shen/Zhou are not even close to being the greatest pair team of the last decade. Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze are both far superior and the 2 greatest pairs of the last decade. Shen/Zhou have done nothing to deserve to be rated a greater team then either of those pairs.

I also dont know you point out Totmianina/Marinin's Olympics Gold as if it were an example of a team that isnt a true champion winning a gold medal. They are 2 time World title winners, 2 time GP final winners, 5 time European title winners. It is also the 3rd time they have beaten Shen/Zhou in one of those events, they beat them at the 2003 GP final, the 2004 Worlds, and the 2006 Olympics. They and Shen/Zhou battled for supremency that whole 4 years, and were by far the 2 best pairs in the world that whole time. This was far from a flukish or strange team to win the Olympic Gold.

As I said Shen/Zhou and Totmianina/Marinin were by far the best 2 pairs of the last half-decade; as Pang/Tong, Zhang/Zhang, Petrova/Tikhonov, are nowhere near their league. Totmianina/Marinin were not only far superior to all the top pairs of that time period other then Shen/Zhou, they were real rivals to Shen/Zhou even when they were healthy. As Totmianina/Marinin are multi-World title winners a long with their Olympic Gold they are a great pair in their own right, as are Shen/Zhou, even though both are inferior to Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze. As the "next 2" best pairs of the last decade there in fact is very little difference between them. So your slight of them is very strange and hard to understand.

 

[antmanb]

Shen/Zhou are not even close to being the greatest pair team of the last decade. Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze are both far superior and the 2 greatest pairs of the last decade. Shen/Zhou have done nothing to deserve to be rated a greater team then either of those pairs.

I don't know - i've said it before, and i'll say it again. At the Time when Ber/Sikh, Sale/Pell and Shen/Zhao were all competing Shen/Zhao did not have the presentation skills (or even the excellent pair skills) to compete with B/S and S/P. Shen/Zhao did, however, start working immensely on their presentation, artistry and choreography and became much stronger in these areas and along with it came that excellent unison. Shen/Zhao of now would have given Ber/Sikh and Sale/Pell of then a good run for their money, but i think, that i'd still give the nod to the Russians and Canadians.

I also dont know you point out Totmianina/Marinin's Olympics Gold as if it were an example of a team that isnt a true champion winning a gold medal. They are 2 time World title winners, 2 time GP final winners, 5 time European title winners. It is also the 3rd time they have beaten Shen/Zhou in one of those events, they beat them at the 2003 GP final, the 2004 Worlds, and the 2006 Olympics. They and Shen/Zhou battled for supremency that whole 4 years, and were by far the 2 best pairs in the world that whole time. This was far from a flukish or strange team to win the Olympic Gold.

As Totmianina/Marinin are multi-World title winners a long with their Olympic Gold they are a great pair in their own right, as are Shen/Zhou, even though both are inferior to Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze. As the "next 2" best pairs of the last decade there in fact is very little difference between them. So your slight of them is very strange and hard to understand.

I think there is a world of difference between Shen/Zhao and Tot/Mar. Tot/Mar could have had any music playing in the background and it wouldn not have made any difference to the way they skated. They were a very technical proficient team, with good unison and great elements (except the awful death spirals and usual crashy russian slpit twist). What they lacked was any musicality, meaningful choreography or seemingly any chemistry on the ice. Shen/Zhao were plagued with injuries in the last quadrennial and Tot/Mar took advantage of that whenever they could. If (and i know that's a big if) Shen/Zhao had been 100% fit and healthy and competing at those competitions i don't think Tot/Mar woudl ahve had the same number of titles, and i think that Shen/Zhao would have had that godl in Torino too.

Ant

 

[bekalc]

I agree that we can't really call it wrong ... it happened.
I will say, however, that for me personally, the Olympic Gold Medal doesn't hold the same place of reverence in my heart that it used to. I just can't grasp sometimes, that Michelle will end her career without one. To me she is everything that an OGM represents. I could scream all day that it's not fair, but it wouldn't do any good. So what ends up happening (just for me) is that the whole thing is dimished somewhat. I know that's not fair to all those that did win it, but then ... who ever said life was fair.

How is it unfair that those girls didn't get the Olympic gold medal? Tara outskated Michelle at Nagano. And in 2002, Michelle made a major mistake, and skated a transitionless program. As for Irina, she imploded both times the Olympic gold medal was handed to her...

The Olympics is a competition, and its a very high pressured competition...It's incredibly hard to be the favorite and skate well. That's why a skater like Yagudin/Plushenko/Witt etc are one of a kinds.

There are plenty of things that are unfair in life. And there are results in figure skating that are unfair. However, Irina and Michelle were most certainly not cheated. If they want to blame someone, frankly they should blame themselves.

And honestly, especially in the Salt Lake thing, Michelle was her own worst enemy. Frankly, it takes a lot of hubris to assume that you don't need a coach going into the most important competition of your life.

 

[SeaniBu]

And honestly, especially in the Salt Lake thing, Michelle was her own worst enemy. Frankly, it takes a lot of hubris to assume that you don't need a coach going into the most important competition of your life.

ITA, but really wanted to say what a perfect word and use. hubris

I think that was a gutsy move but reminds me of something Bode Miller would do / did. So she has 2 flaws, better than most people. Chalked up to immaturity at that time, 06 I still really wonder what was going on???

 

[judgejudy2780]

I don't know - i've said it before, and i'll say it again. At the Time when Ber/Sikh, Sale/Pell and Shen/Zhao were all competing Shen/Zhao did not have the presentation skills (or even the excellent pair skills) to compete with B/S and S/P. Shen/Zhao did, however, start working immensely on their presentation, artistry and choreography and became much stronger in these areas and along with it came that excellent unison. Shen/Zhao of now would have given Ber/Sikh and Sale/Pell of then a good run for their money, but i think, that i'd still give the nod to the Russians and Canadians.

Well it sounds as if you are saying for half of Shen/Zhou's career as a top pair you concede they could not really rival Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze or Sale/Pelletier, and for the other half they would be very close with them but still giving the slight edge to Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze and Sale/Pelletier. Does not sound like you are really refuting that those 2 pairs are the greatest pairs of the last decade just as I said.

I think there is a world of difference between Shen/Zhao and Tot/Mar. Tot/Mar could have had any music playing in the background and it wouldn not have made any difference to the way they skated. They were a very technical proficient team, with good unison and great elements (except the awful death spirals and usual crashy russian slpit twist). What they lacked was any musicality, meaningful choreography or seemingly any chemistry on the ice.

I agree with you on the triple twist of Totmianina/Marinin but not at all on the death spirals. They have excellent death spirals, some of the best, and the judges feel that way too as they give them some of the highest GOE on them and they are level 4 value. IMO they have better death spirals then Shen/Zhou despite that Shen/Zhou have good death spirals.

I agree with you on their lacking chemistry on the ice, or magic on the ice. I dont agree with you at all on musicality or choreography. Their programs were extremely well choreographed and their movements and skating very in time and reflective of the music.

Shen/Zhou have their relative weaknesses by comparision too. They are nowhere near as polished in terms of lines or positions even today as Sale/
Pelletier, Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze, or even Totmianina/Marinin. The free leg extensions are still a bit sloppy alot of times. Their unision and matching movements is also beaten convincingly by a team like Totmianina/Marinin. Their spins are much much weaker then a team like Totmianina/Marinin as well. His throw technique is also not particularly strong, the way he almost hops of the ice after he launches her, the result of what happens with her is spectacular but his technique is not that strong.

Shen/Zhao were plagued with injuries in the last quadrennial and Tot/Mar took advantage of that whenever they could. If (and i know that's a big if) Shen/Zhao had been 100% fit and healthy and competing at those competitions i don't think Tot/Mar woudl ahve had the same number of titles, and i think that Shen/Zhao would have had that godl in Torino too.

Totmianina/Marinin and Shen/Zhou completed together for 2 full seasons fully healthy starting the season after the 2002 Olympic season. Here were the results:

2003 GP-Totmianina/Marinin over Shen/Zhou. Totmianina/Marinin won all 3 programs over Shen/Zhou

2003 Worlds-Shen/Zhou over Totmianina/Marinin. Totmianina/Marinin won the short program. Shen/Zhou won the free program to win the title.

2003 Skate Canada-Totmianina/Marinin over Shen/Zhou. Shen/Zhou won the short program. Totmianina/Marinin won the fre program to win the title.

2004 GP final-Shen/Zhou over Totmianina/Marinin. Shen/Zhou won the short and free program to win the title.

2004 Worlds-Totmianina/Marinin over Shen/Zhou. Totmianina/Marinin won the short program, Shen/Zhou won the free program but could not catch up overall.

No domination there that I see from either team. Totmianina/Marinin were real rivals and threats to Shen/Zhou even when they were fully healthy, coping with no injuries.

I could easily say Shen/Zhou also took advantage of periods Totmianina/Marinin were injured or away since either team cruised to titles when the other was absent or not 100% since teams like Pang/Tong, Petrova/Tikhonov, Zhang/Zhang are not even in the same league as either Shen/Zhou or Totmianina
/Marinin. Totmianina/Marinin had it easy between the 2005 Worlds-2006 Olympics with Shen/Zhou either dealing with injuries or absent? Well Shen/Zhou also had it easy during the 2005 GP season with Totmianin/Marinin out from their serious accident at Skate America. Shen/Zhou also had it easy this season with Totmianina/Marinin gone, who was their big competition left-
Pang/Tong, Zhang/Zhang, Savchenko/Szokoly? When Totmianina/Marinin have been away Shen/Zhou have pretty much joke competition as well.

Look at the Olympics, Totmianina/Marinin winning by 15 points over 2nd place. Then look at this years Worlds, Shen/Zhou winning by 16 points over 2nd place. It is the same for both teams, when the other one is absent or not 100% they each romp to titles with no real competition there for them. Their PB scores under COP are extremely similar I would add.

 

[attyfan]

ITA, but really wanted to say what a perfect word and use. hubris

I think that was a gutsy move but reminds me of something Bode Miller would do / did. So she has 2 flaws, better than most people. Chalked up to immaturity at that time, 06 I still really wonder what was going on???

I'm not sure if "hubris" is the right word, simply because we don't know the reason for the split and I think "hubris" would apply only if the decision was due to Michelle's belief she could "do it on her own", as opposed (for example) that she was torn in several ways, and something had to give (as might be the case, if, as some have hypothesized, Frank was giving Kwan a hard time about her then-boyfriend)

Whether "hubris" is the right word or not, IMO, the only safe statements about Michelle's going coachless to SLC are: (1) Skating fans (at least some) will always be puzzeled why she did so; (2) neither Michelle nor Frank will ever tell us; and (3) we don't know what would have happened if she had gone with a coach -- be that coach Frank or someone else.

 

[Mathman]

Frankly, it takes a lot of hubris to assume that you don't need a coach going into the most important competition of your life.

ITA, but really wanted to say what a perfect word and use: hubris

I feel just the opposite. I believe that going into the 2002 Olympics Michelle was a bundle of insecurities. Things weren't going well and she didn't know why or what she could do about it. In one famous exchange, in an interview Farnk Caroll said to a reporter, "everything is going right," and Michelle blurted out almost in tears, "NOTHING is going right!"

Frank wanted her to put off going to college until after the Olympics, but Michelle said that she HAD to do it because she felt like if she didn't have something to take her mind off skating she would go crazy.

Michelle said she felt like she had to go it alone because she wanted to take control of her own skating. But I think she meant, her life was spinning out of control and she had to take control of her life. (A familiar predicament when a person is 21.)

As for 2006, I think that Michelle had good days and bad days in coping with her deteriorating hip injury. Her coach (Arutunian) later said that some days she would come to practice and just shake her head, no, I can't do it today. Other days, I think she felt fine, or at least not in such pain as to pervent her from skating.

Would she be able to compete? No one knew, least of all Michelle, until the first day of practice in Torino.

I think that the reason she pressed forward is that she did not want to quit. She was determined to give her all, and if it was not to be, then it was not to be and Go Emily! I think the thing that she feared most was the prospect of looking back wondering what might have happened. This way she has no second thoughts, no regrets; she steps down knowing that she gave everything she had.

 

[SeaniBu]

Ok, Ok... I retract any ancient greek use of the word hubris, but feel there had to have been some form of overwhelming self confidence to go it alone for whatever reason. And can you blame her, she's MK. There has got to be a great deal of self confidence if you are that good, that loved and that driven.


As for 06? I don't really know that why I say I am not fully understanding that move. I can see the points of speculation why, but still not so sure why? I am not even sure why I mentioned 06 anyway?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not sure if "hubris" is the right word, simply because we don't know the reason for the split and I think "hubris" would apply only if the decision was due to Michelle's belief she could "do it on her own", as opposed (for example) that she was torn in several ways, and something had to give (as might be the case, if, as some have hypothesized, Frank was giving Kwan a hard time about her then-boyfriend)

Whether "hubris" is the right word or not, IMO, the only safe statements about Michelle's going coachless to SLC are: (1) Skating fans (at least some) will always be puzzeled why she did so; (2) neither Michelle nor Frank will ever tell us; and (3) we don't know what would have happened if she had gone with a coach -- be that coach Frank or someone else.

It's a total mystery that will never be revealed. Only speculations can exist on why suddenly and right before the Olys, there was the inexplicable split of coach, choreographer and the drastic change to Warhorse music.

For my part, it is all tied in with the hip problem and not just the broken toe problem which was cause for concern in Nagano. As for Nagano, those non fans of Kwan hold on to the Tara win as proof she was the better of the two.
Of course, I don't buy that. Michelle would have beaten her if she had skated later in the event. I don't think the Tara sugar rush would have worked but that is just an if and we have to let nonKwan fans have their day. The results did not change Kwan's fans' minds whatsoever anymore than Sarah's win changed the minds of a variety of fans.

I do think the nonfans of Kwan were tremendously disappointed in Sasha's failure to not only get an Oly gold but never a golden Worlds. It didn't change my liking Sasha's skating one bit. She was a force in her day.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

Michelle would have beaten her if she had skated later in the event. I don't think the Tara sugar rush would have worked.

If Michelle had skated after Tara's flawless performance, nerves might have hit her somewhere. Who knows.

I think Tara would have won either way. Remember, Michelle already got 5.9's across the board for presentation skating before Tara. I really don't think she would have gotten any 6.0's for THAT performance, had the order been switched. It didn't have as much speed or abandon.

~Z

 

[R.D.]

*Yawn* and consider also that it might have freaked out Kwan a bit going after that performance...that's even assuming Lipinski would have skated the exact same way. What if, what if...:indiff:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If Michelle had skated after Tara's flawless performance, nerves might have hit her somewhere. Who knows.

I think Tara would have won either way. Remember, Michelle already got 5.9's across the board for presentation skating before Tara. I really don't think she would have gotten any 6.0's for THAT performance, had the order been switched. It didn't have as much speed or abandon.~Z

Of course not. With your views it is understandable.

 

[nymkfan51]

There are plenty of things that are unfair in life. And there are results in figure skating that are unfair. However, Irina and Michelle were most certainly not cheated. If they want to blame someone, frankly they should blame themselves.

first of all ... I don't believe I ever used the word "cheated" in my post ... and ... Michelle and Irina are not blaming anyone here ... this is just a discussion of our opinions.

 

[Mathman]

Yes, the "unfair"sentiment is in the sense of "oh, cruel, cruel fate" -- not that the judging was biased or that the gold medal winners were undeserving of their prizes.

 

[JockProf]

Some skaters can't even win a Worlds but they are good skaters.

Joe

Agreed - none more famous than Janet Lynn.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I do agree with Joesitz in a sense. Skating order of course is a major potential factor when skaters and performances are close. Michelle going first in the final flight which had the 5 major contenders for medals was of course a disadvantage, the judges have no choice but to go conservative on her marks, unless she completely blows the roof of with her performance. Tara skating second last was an advantage. Skating after Surya Bonaly's sloppy performance that night, highlighted by the "in your face backflip" to go out on. In addition when your overall artistry and overall presentation, is your biggest concern to how you stack up to your own biggest rival(Kwan of course) skating after Surya's performance that night also helps with regards to that, as opposed to skating after Kwan or Lu Chen for example.

I am not trying to diminish Tara's win, nobody thought a clean Kwan could possibly lose that night. Scott Hamilton was even debating if she had a 2 fall cushion or not, whether Kwan could lose with 1 fall was not even a question, the only talk was about 2 falls losing to a clean Tara or not IIRC. Kwan being the clear favorite was understandable after her season and stunning U.S Nationals, but Tara was also perhaps a bit too overlooked given she was still the reigning World Champion. So kudos to Tara as she did what few gave her even the slightest chance to do. Still Joesitz is right that skating order is certainly a factor in a close decision like that, and the decision certainly could have been affected by the skate order that night.

As for those who say Tara is greater then Michelle due to that one night, obviously Tara deserves to be regarded a great skater. The youngest to ever win a Worlds, the youngest to ever win an Olympics, the youngest to ever win the U.S Nationals. However by her own choice she greatly limits her greatness by turning pro after only 2 seasons as a true elite in her sport, which automaticaly relegates to her being nowhere close to Kwan, or even Slutskaya, as far as her place of history in the sport. Granted she was having hip trouble even as a pro so I am not sure if her body could have held up anyway. Either way she should be remembered as a great of her sport, but by leaving so soon there is no way you can put her up with somebody like Kwan, or even somebody like Slutskaya. She becomes too much of a case of a bright light that flickered and went out too quickly. Even Peggy Fleming dismissed her, perhaps a bit too harshly, but still with some truth to it as a "blip on the radar screen" during her preview of U.S Nationals in 2005. So discussions of how that one night impacts Tara vs Michelle are meaningless since Tara's career was too short to be able to even be compared to somebody like Michelle IMHO. I do rate Tara much higher then Biaul or Hughes atleast though.