Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[iloveaxel]

Shen/Zhou are not even close to being the greatest pair team of the last decade. Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikhardlidze are both far superior and the 2 greatest pairs of the last decade. Shen/Zhou have done nothing to deserve to be rated a greater team then either of those pairs.

I.

I usually don't like to jump into these stupid 'which one is the greatest' debate, but i just found your reasoning on this particular case is quite amusing.

Based on your logic, I bet we can assume all of those credible commentators from ESPN, CBC, and Eurosport are also inferior to our armchair general judgejudy2780 simply because our 'judgejudy2780' thinks shen&zhao are inferior to B&S and S&P.

To believe Shen & Zhao are inferior to Sale/Pelletier is just laughable. S&P had better their on-ice chemistry, matching lines and more polished than Shen & Zhao in their early career. But technically speaking, S&P were really not first rated. Their lifts and spins were good, but their throws, twist, sbs jumps were just mediocre to horrible. When Shen&Zhao matured as a 'real' pair on the ice, any artistic advantage S&P had over them in the past is no longer exisitent. Another important thing is that Shen & Zhao produced far more master pieces than neither B&S and S&P. What really did S&P produce? A recycled love story.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like them, and thought 2002 OGM should have belonged to them alone since they did skate the best on that particular night.

B&S were closer to Shen & Zhao since they were a far more complete package than S&P. But the problem for this team was that they had fewer excellent programs than shen & zhao in my opinion. The other factor I would rate Shen & zhao ahead of them slightly was B&S just inherited and refined the tradition of Russian pairs skating. On the other hand, Shen & Zhao revolutionlized many aspects of pairs skating. Their athletism and the way they did throws, twists really make them one of the greatest pairs, in many experts' eyes.

So overall, B&S and Shen & Zhao are much closer in terms of their 'greatness' depending on your taste. But if you watch both ESPN and Eurosports commentators' opinions, they definitely think Shen & Zhao are the best.

S&P are just not on par with B&S and Shen & Zhao based on overall package since S&P's technical ability is weak, and artistically you can argue either way.

In terms of technical ability, matching lines, unison, even TT&MM would soundly beat S&P.

In terms of originality, Shen & Zhao would have also beaten lots of pairs mentioned above. A simple example is their long program this year. Maybe it's not their best in many people's opinions, but look at how many original moves they did vs. their past programs. The combination spin, spiral sequence, step sequence, all are quite different. On the other hand, many disgintuished pairs are just recycling their movements year over year even they do a new program.




We all have our opinions and egos. But I guess those commentators sometimes do have more credibility than you especially when all the commentators from three major channels(CBC, ESPN, Eurosports) have reached the consensus that Shen & Zhao is one of the greatest in pairs skating history.

I watched different broadcast versions of 2007 world figure skating champs coverage. Peter from ESPN rated Shen & Zhao one of the three greatest pairs; Chris from British Eurosport rated them the favourite of his(not one of, but THE) over the past ten years; CBC rated them one of the greatest.


Anyway, have a nice day.

 

[SeaniBu]

In terms of technical ability, even TT&MM would soundly beat S&P.

What do you mean even?

 

[Tonichelle]

now this is interesting... instead of a thread going right back to Michelle Kwan, a Michelle Kwan thread has turned into a pairs thread

how's that for change?

 

[slutskayafan21]

I usually don't like to jump into these stupid 'which one is the greatest' debate, but i just found your reasoning on this particular case is quite amusing.

Based on your logic, I bet we can assume all of those credible commentators from ESPN, CBC, and Eurosport are also inferior to our armchair general judgejudy2780 simply because our 'judgejudy2780' thinks shen&zhao are inferior to B&S and S&P.

To believe Shen & Zhao are inferior to Sale/Pelletier is just laughable. S&P had better their on-ice chemistry, matching lines and more polished than Shen & Zhao in their early career. But technically speaking, S&P were really not first rated. Their lifts and spins were good, but their throws, twist, sbs jumps were just mediocre to horrible. When Shen&Zhao matured as a 'real' pair on the ice, any artistic advantage S&P had over them in the past is no longer exisitent. Another important thing is that Shen & Zhao produced far more master pieces than neither B&S and S&P. What really did S&P produce? A recycled love story.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like them, and thought 2002 OGM should have belonged to them alone since they did skate the best on that particular night.

B&S were closer to Shen & Zhao since they were a far more complete package than S&P. But the problem for this team was that they had fewer excellent programs than shen & zhao in my opinion. The other factor I would rate Shen & zhao ahead of them slightly was B&S just inherited and refined the tradition of Russian pairs skating. On the other hand, Shen & Zhao revolutionlized many aspects of pairs skating. Their athletism and the way they did throws, twists really make them one of the greatest pairs, in many experts' eyes.

So overall, B&S and Shen & Zhao are much closer in terms of their 'greatness' depending on your taste. But if you watch both ESPN and Eurosports commentators' opinions, they definitely think Shen & Zhao are the best.

S&P are just not on par with B&S and Shen & Zhao based on overall package since S&P's technical ability is weak, and artistically you can argue either way.

In terms of technical ability, matching lines, unison, even TT&MM would soundly beat S&P.

In terms of originality, Shen & Zhao would have also beaten lots of pairs mentioned above. A simple example is their long program this year. Maybe it's not their best in many people's opinions, but look at how many original moves they did vs. their past programs. The combination spin, spiral sequence, step sequence, all are quite different. On the other hand, many disgintuished pairs are just recycling their movements year over year even they do a new program.




We all have our opinions and egos. But I guess those commentators sometimes do have more credibility than you especially when all the commentators from three major channels(CBC, ESPN, Eurosports) have reached the consensus that Shen & Zhao is one of the greatest in pairs skating history.

I watched different broadcast versions of 2007 world figure skating champs coverage. Peter from ESPN rated Shen & Zhao one of the three greatest pairs; Chris from British Eurosport rated them the favourite of his(not one of, but THE) over the past ten years; CBC rated them one of the greatest.

Well, we can also argue 'judgejudy2780' is the BEST commentator since she/he is the most credible poster on the most credible skating board in the world - Golden Skating Forums. LOL.

Anyway, have a nice day.

Ever hear of "flavor of the day". I am not surprised many people will laud Shen/Zhou more then teams like Sale/Pelletier or Elena and Anton at the moment. That is because they are the most recent and the tendency always in sports is to want to inflate the best of the current or most recent even more. In 3 years time I doubt anybody will say Shen/Zhou are better then either of those teams by then. In fact who knows in the distant future how they will be rated vs a team like Totmianina/Marinin, I suspect they will be rated in a similar level probably though.

At the end of last season and the start of this season some of those same commentators were overgushing the Zhangs and saying they were even better then Shen/Zhou in their prime. Of course that is nonsense but that comes down to the "what is in" or "who is hot" at the moment. Since Shen/Zhou were only seen valiantly struggling to a bronze medal at the Olympics in the last 18 months at that point, and the Zhangs were the hot up and comers, people inflated them ridiculously at the time, while pushing a team that looked to starting to be a bit more of the "past" like Shen/Zhou off the side. That commentators would talk about the Zhangs in such a way at that point in time just proves my point of inflating what is seen as most "current", which is the same thing that will be done with Shen/Zhou until they are gone atleast a year. Of course when Shen/Zhou returned to championship form they of course are the current "what is in" themselves yet again.

CBC never said that Shen/Zhou were superior to either of those 2 teams BTW.

 

[Tonichelle]

We - and even commentators - as people all have different tastes

I love Jamie and David - always have... I think they're amazing
I've never gotten into the whole Chinese Pairs craze... I just don't see anything other than the elements as being that superior... *shrugs*

Peter Carruthers has always been infatuated with Shen and Zhao, probably because he's a former pairs skater and he could only dream of throwing his sister that high... and because he competed against S/Z's coach. He has been pulling for them for a while now. I don't think it's weird that he is on the bandwagon to claim they're one of the best period...

memories fade (to echo slutskayafan) so that which is most impressive in the minds eye at any given time normally gets the 'best ever' rating...

 

[bekalc]

Looking back, I think that perhaps hubris was a bit unfair to say. Because i wonder if it was insecurities melt down that made Michelle go coachless.

However, I still think that it was a very bad decision on Michelle's part, and I remember reading an interview where Frank said that he wished Michelle would rather have Michelle take another coach and go at alone. I don't have issues with Michelle firing Frank. She could have had many good reasons for that. But going coachless was not a good idea. And honestly, I think there is some form of hubris, even if your scared or whatever, to think: I don't need a coach. Any coach, I can win the Olympics without one. Honestly, when you think about it Michelle's career in general took a real downwards spiral when she left Frank. Although who knows some of it may be age/other priorities/injuries. I'm not judging her for leaving Frank. I just think she should have gotten another coach. Plenty of skaters get new coaches during the Olympic year.


As for Tara. I dont' think I personally ever said that Tara is better than Michelle. Tara was better than Michelle that night. And as for skate order at first I thought it made a difference, but honestly I don't think it did. The judges knew who they were placing first and who they were placing second. If they felt Michelle skated better, they would have just made Tara's marks lower. I remember Phil Hersh wrote an article, and he said that it was pretty clear to those in the stadium who won that night: Tara. He said that Michelle skated very/very slowly that night. Whereas Tara skated with a lot of speed/then you couple that with Tara's harder program. Tara just handled the pressure better.

As for Tara, who knows what would have happened if she lost. I know she had injuries (but she might have listened to doctors more.) It's totally possible that if Michelle had won, she would have retired and gone off to Harvard. Whereas, Tara might have stayed, and she (Tara) might have been the multiple world champion.

 

[iloveaxel]

CBC never said that Shen/Zhou were superior to either of those 2 teams BTW.

I didn't say CBC commented shen/zhao were superior to either of those 2 teams? Did I? When I made a point, unlike some other people, I usually checked my facts, even sometimes not all were accurate.

To say those commentators only lauded shen & zhao in such a way this year is also quite amusing. I guess detractors can always grab the last straw.

Just one example I recalled, Dick Button actually lauded Shen & Zhao during 2004 world champs as the current version of P&P. (Frankly I have never watched P&P's videos since I usually do not like to watch antiques with limited technical ability. But since they were supposed to be the best among most experts, so here you go). CBC commentators said they were still the best in the world even TT&MM won the gold.

Like them or not, most experts seem to agree that Shen & Zhao's perfect combination of athletism and artistry, the way they make pairs skating bigger, having this 'wow' factor really pull them near the top of the pack.

As I said, I usually don't really care about such things as who's the greatest since I can't stand watching the antiques doing doubles, or tiny throws, let alone comment how great they were. But...

Regarding Zhang & Zhang, it's too early to write obituary of them. I agree with you to certain extent that commentators tend to live 'in the moment'. That's why the gushing over them was premature, and the way they almost wrote them off this year is also premature.

In my opinion, if Zhang & Zhang regain the form, and become the first pair to land quad throws on a consistent basis, and if they improve their artistry in the future, they do have a great chance to separate themselves from the pack.

What makes skaters 'GREAT' is their ability to revolutionize the this sport, especially in terms of technical content. That's why Mao Asada, Midori will always be remembered as 'GREAT' skaters opposed to those fading ballerias on ice.

 

[slutskayafan21]

As for the Sale/Pelletier not even being in the same league as Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze or Shen/Zhou, complete hogwash! Sale/Pelletier dominated both teams in their primes. Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze lost to Sale/Pelletier 5 of 6 meetings from 2000 Skate Canada-2002 Olympics. Now they are both pros and Sale/ Pelletier are still winning any head to head individiual battles between them. It has been almost forever since Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze have ever beaten Sale/Pelletier. Shen/Zhou were so far behind Sale/Pelletier at the time Sale/Pelletier retired(despite Shen/Zhou making podiums at big events), that Shen/Zhou probably could not have seen them even with a telescope at that point. The two teams were not even close to the same league back then. Shen/Zhou have improved alot since then but I still doubt it would be enough to beat Sale/Pelletier. I also saw the 2 teams compete against each in the Hallmark challenge, a pro-am event that used to the World Pro Championships, this was in the 2003 season when the "new" Shen/Zhou had already arrived, and Sale/Pelletier still beat them easily. I wouldnt read too much from that one event, but for what it is worth thought I would just mention that.

Sale/Pelletier went through 2 whole seasons with only 1 real loss(the Olympics was not a real loss), a small grand prix event on a 4-3 split to Berezhnaya/ Sikharulidze. That was real dominance personified, and it was vs a great great rival pair like Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze; plus a very strong overall field of teams that included Shen/Zhou, Petrova/Tikhonov, Ina/Zimmerman, and a young Totmianina/Marinin. Shen/Zhou have never gone through 2 whole seasons of dominance even close to that. The most Shen/Zhou have gone through dominance of that kind was for only 1 season at once, never 2 straight seasons. The 2 instances would be the 2004-2005 season, until being injured at Worlds and withdrawing, and the 2006-2007 season. Both those seasons Shen/Zhou had no competition at all, Totmianina/Marinin were missing for the entire season of Shen/Zhou both those seasons, so they had truly NO competition at all both those seasons. Since the Zhangs were not that strong during either of those periods, their toughest competition left was an aging Petrova/Tikhonov, the forgotten chinese pair of Pang/Tong, and the erratic German pair. Pretty much a joke compared to what Sale/Pelletier faced while dominating 2 straight seasons completely.

Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze also only dominated 1 season ever which was the 1998-1999 season. So they too never dominated back to back seasons the way Sale/Pelletier did. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze also did not face a primed Sale/Pelletier during their 1 season of dominance, as Sale/Pelletier were in their rookie year as a pair in fact.

Sale/Pelletier are far from technicaly "weak". Their only relative weakness is inconsistency in side by side jumps. Their throws, lifts, twists, death spirals, footwork, spirals, spins, are all excellent. Neither Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, or Shen/Zhou, or Totmianina/Marinin have lifts that even come close to Sale/ Pelletier in fact. Shen/Zhou obviously dont have spins or spirals that come anywhere close either. Totmianina/Marinin dont have a double or triple twist in the same league. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze dont even come close to Sale/Pelletier in death spirals or footwork. So in fact Sale/Pelletier are technicaly excellent in almost every area, only side by side jumps are they a bit suspect, and definitely the weakest out of those 4 best teams of the last decade in. Also they are actually superior to each of those other 3 pairs in quite a few technical categories.

Shen/Zhou are great but certainly have their shortcomings compared to these 3 other greatest teams of the last decade we are talking about, both in terms of technique and artistry. They have by far the weakest spins of all 4 of these pairs, in fact their spins are medicore at best. Hongbo's throw technique is by far the weakest of the 4 men of these pairs, even if the result of what it produces from her is spectacular. Hongbo's lifting technique is better then Max's, but weaker then Anton's, and light years weaker then David Pelletier's. They have very good unision but are still far below either Totmianina/Marinin or Sale/ Pelletier in terms of unision.

Even after their artistic transformation they still have some shortcomings here too compared to either Sale/Pelletier or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, and even Totmianina/Marinin. Their lines and positions are still by far the weakest of these 4 teams. They are definitely the least polished and refined of these 4 pairs. Their basic edge quality and flow, while very good, is still below all of these 3 other pairs as well. Their unision and matching of each movement, not just the technical elements but the "in betweens" too, falls short of these other 3 teams, especialy Sale/Pelletier and Totmianina/Marinin who are renowned for their incredible symetry in everything they did.

They are a great pair but I agree that they are rightfully placed below Sale/ Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze at the very least.

 

[iloveaxel]

Peter Carruthers has always been infatuated with Shen and Zhao, probably because he's a former pairs skater and he could only dream of throwing his sister that high... and because he competed against S/Z's coach. He has been pulling for them for a while now. I don't think it's weird that he is on the bandwagon to claim they're one of the best period...

...

As I said, it's not just Peter Carruthers, Dick Button, Peggy Flemming, CBC commentators, Eurosport (Chris I believe) all jumped onto S&Z bandwagon long time ago. I don't have time to dig out all the gushing they had in various videos on youtube.

Their gushing may be a bit over the top sometimes, well I guess that's why it makes lots of their non-fans uncomfortable...

I always prefer skaters with superior technical ability, and the way they push the sport. Look at all top five pairs at this worlds, all of their throws are huge and they are exciting to watch. Figure skating is evolving because skaters such as Shen & Zhao are pushing the evlope.

Mao Asada, will probably become one of the GREATEST skaters we've ever had also because of this. It's hard to imagine Yu-Na Kim will eventually fall into that category no matter how beautifully she will skate in the future.

They are a great pair but I agree that they are rightfully placed below Sale/Pelletier and Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze at the very least.

What exactly did Sale/Pelletier achieve in their amatuer career in terms of pushing technical limit and originality? In most fans' eyes, even a clean performance of their recycled 'love story' was far inferior to B&S' flawed performance at 2002 Olympics. That really tells you their greatness.Technically, they did not have anything magic, and the love story can't last forever. As I said, I actually thought they would have beaten B&S on that particular night, but if you have a poll, I guess most fans will disagree.

Although I don't really care about ice dancing, D&L seem to follow S&P's footsteps of recycling romance on ice. That alone is not going to get them a gold medal any time soon.

Anyway, that's pretty much the end of this very fruitless debate. In the end, it's not you and I that posted these ridiculous comments on a random skating board who will write the figure skating history.

Frankly, it's pretty useless to rate who's the greatest.

BTW, greatness does not necessarily mean you have to win every competition or even most competitions. Look at Mao Asada, she did not win, but is there any doubt on anybody's mind that she IS simply THE greatest among current ladies??

 

[Tonichelle]

they put it all together - where as 'back then' Xue and Hongbo were still testing their wings artistically and still had trouble with the basics (spins, footwork, just basic unison)

tricks are great, but Jamie and David and Elena and Anton had it all.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Frank wanted her to put off going to college until after the Olympics, but Michelle said that she HAD to do it because she felt like if she didn't have something to take her mind off skating she would go crazy.

Michelle said she felt like she had to go it alone because she wanted to take control of her own skating. But I think she meant, her life was spinning out of control and she had to take control of her life. (A familiar predicament when a person is 21.)

MM - What is your source for the above two paras? I would think MK once in college realized she wanted to continue skating and dropped studies. Why then, not go back to Frank and Lori?

Did she actually say she wanted to go it alone? and did she ever admit that that was a mistake? Did she ever explain the use of warhorse music?

I think that the reason she pressed forward is that she did not want to quit. She was determined to give her all, and if it was not to be, then it was not to be and Go Emily! I think the thing that she feared most was the prospect of looking back wondering what might have happened. This way she has no second thoughts, no regrets; she steps down knowing that she gave everything she had.

I feel your compassion for her with your belief in her determination yet she continued to say 'one day at a time' - nothing of determination to get back in shape. And she couldn't, the hip got worse and worse. I can not agree with your take that she feared looking back on what would happen if she does not go to 2006 Olys. She (or the family) had to pay the bills for the new rink. Her fame would carry a lot of money and I believe that is where she was before and after the 2002 Olys. The Coi performances in 2006 speak for themselves about how ready she was for that Oly.

Joe

 

[gio]

they put it all together - where as 'back then' Xue and Hongbo were still testing their wings artistically and still had trouble with the basics (spins, footwork, just basic unison)

tricks are great, but Jamie and David and Elena and Anton had it all.

I agree Toni! Jamie/David and Elena/Anton were more complete back then!!!
I have to say that in 2002 I cheered for both, regardless of the rivalry.

 

[Mathman]

BTW, greatness does not necessarily mean you have to win every competition or even most competitions. Look at Mao Asada, she did not win, but is there any doubt on anybody's mind that she IS simply THE greatest among current ladies?

Yes. I hope we don't have to add Mao's name to the Kwan/Slutskaya list in 2010.

Mao has already had bad luck twice. She missed the 2006 Olympics and worlds by being born in the wrong month. Then she muffed her chance at the 2007 Worlds by popping that second jump on her combo in the SP. In a parallel universe she might already have two world championships and an Olympic medal.

 

[attyfan]

MM - What is your source for the above two paras? I would think MK once in college realized she wanted to continue skating and dropped studies. Why then, not go back to Frank and Lori?

Did she actually say she wanted to go it alone? and did she ever admit that that was a mistake? Did she ever explain the use of warhorse music?

I feel your compassion for her with your belief in her determination yet she continued to say 'one day at a time' - nothing of determination to get back in shape. And she couldn't, the hip got worse and worse. I can not agree with your take that she feared looking back on what would happen if she does not go to 2006 Olys. She (or the family) had to pay the bills for the new rink. Her fame would carry a lot of money and I believe that is where she was before and after the 2002 Olys. The Coi performances in 2006 speak for themselves about how ready she was for that Oly.

Joe

Michelle has never formally admitted that going coachless was a mistake, but I think it significant that when she decided she wanted to continue competing after SLC, the first thing she did was get another coach. She also never explained her use of "warhorse" music, but I think she has been using that kind of music ever since she left Frank. Maybe, after so many years of using "not over used" music, she thought that the old "warhorses" would be fun. Certainly, her "Aranjuez" and "Tosca" (esp at Nats) were fun for her audience.

 

[Mathman]

What makes skaters 'GREAT' is their ability to revolutionize the this sport, especially in terms of technical content. That's why Mao Asada, Midori will always be remembered as 'GREAT' skaters opposed to those fading ballerias on ice.

That's an interesting comment. What does it mean to "revolutionize" (or even to have a lasting impact on) a sport?

To be a leader you have to have followers. Dick Button was the first to do a triple jump. Now the standard of success for both men and ladies is how many triples can you do in 4 or 4.5 minutes.

Kurt Browning was the first man to do a compltely ratified quad. The quad has since become the determining factor for World and Olympic honors.

In the fifteen years since Ito and Harding were doing triple Axels, they basically produced one disciple -- Asada. Will she be just an amomalous stellar spike in the learning curve (like Ito), or will this really mark an enduring advance in the sport?

(I was just watching Michelle's 2000 and 2001 World championship performances. Check it out. She was just miles ahead of anything the gals are putting out now.)

 

[Mathman]

About Michelle not hiring a new coach for the four months before the 2002 Olympics, I felt that in a weird, crazy way she thought she was showing more respect to Frank that way.

I also thought (but I might be wrong) that there was a disagreement between Michelle and Frank about what it was going to take to win the Olympics. Frank may have felt that all she had to do was go with what had won her four world championships in the past, while Michelle was determined to "up the ante" (as everyone kept saying) by doing two different triple-triples. She tried it in her first performance without Frank, at Skate Canada, and fell (allowing Sarah Hughes to win her first and only -- except for the Olympics -- victory in a major figure skating contest).

The irony is that both of these views were right. If Michelle had delivered the increased technical content that she was determined to do, she would have won easily. But if she had backed off and just skated a clean generic Michelle program, she would have won also.

 

[Mafke]

About Michelle not hiring a new coach for the four months before the 2002 Olympics, I felt that in a weird, crazy way she thought she was showing more respect to Frank that way.

The irony is that both of these views were right. If Michelle had delivered the increased technical content that she was determined to do, she would have won easily. But if she had backed off and just skated a clean generic Michelle program, she would have won also.

I kind of agree about not getting a coach out of respect for Carroll (I never thought of it that way but it makes its own kind of sense from what is known about Kwan's very strong sense of loyalty and propriety).

I disagree that had she skated a "clean, generic Michelle program" she would have won in SLC. The CW of the time (as I recall), was that the judges were going to favor Slutskaya if they possibly could and that Kwan definitely needed a second 3-3 (or at least to keep her 3t-3t).

Had Kwan delivered her worlds LP at SLC she probably would have lost the LP to Slutskaya (didn't four judges put Slutskaya ahead of _Hughes_ anyway???).
Had Slutskaya delivered her worlds LP at SLC then even a 3t-3t might not have been enough for Kwan.

I really wish that Slute had won the SP with Kwan in second (justifiable even though I think the SP placement was valid as it was). I think both would have put down much better LP's had that happened and there wouldn't have been an olympic gold medalist in abstentia until 2006.

 

[attyfan]

... I
I disagree that had she skated a "clean, generic Michelle program" she would have won in SLC. The CW of the time (as I recall), was that the judges were going to favor Slutskaya if they possibly could and that Kwan definitely needed a second 3-3 (or at least to keep her 3t-3t).

Had Kwan delivered her worlds LP at SLC she probably would have lost the LP to Slutskaya (didn't four judges put Slutskaya ahead of _Hughes_ anyway???).
Had Slutskaya delivered her worlds LP at SLC then even a 3t-3t might not have been enough for Kwan.

I really wish that Slute had won the SP with Kwan in second (justifiable even though I think the SP placement was valid as it was). I think both would have put down much better LP's had that happened and there wouldn't have been an olympic gold medalist in abstentia until 2006.

IIRC, the Russians made accusations in the ladies event of "block judging" by a group of five that favored the American skaters at the expense of Irina. If so, I don't think Irina would have beaten a clean, generic MK -- unless she delivered something more than a "clean, generic IS".

I agree, though, that if IS had been in first after the SP, the odds are that both MK and IS would have given better skates in the FS.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No one was going to beat Sarah Hughes THAT NIGHT. Nor should they have.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

No one was going to beat Sarah Hughes THAT NIGHT. Nor should they have.

Joe

You are right nobody was going to beat Hughes that night......except for Kwan's performances at either U.S Nationals that year, the GP final that year, Worlds free skate that year; or except for Slutskaya's performances at either Goodwill Games that year or her Worlds free skate that year.

Hughes did the performance of her life but it was still easily beatable by Kwan, Slutskaya, or possibly Cohen(although Cohen is more doubtful since she has never done a clean free skate in a world or olympic event still 5 years later). The judges did not give her a single 5.9 on either the technical merit or presentation mark, not either 1. It does not sound like the judges had decided that skate was anywhere close to unbeatable.