Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[slutskayafan21]

I disagree that had she skated a "clean, generic Michelle program" she would have won in SLC. The CW of the time (as I recall), was that the judges were going to favor Slutskaya if they possibly could and that Kwan definitely needed a second 3-3 (or at least to keep her 3t-3t).

Had Kwan delivered her worlds LP at SLC she probably would have lost the LP to Slutskaya (didn't four judges put Slutskaya ahead of _Hughes_ anyway???).
Had Slutskaya delivered her worlds LP at SLC then even a 3t-3t might not have been enough for Kwan.

I really wish that Slute had won the SP with Kwan in second (justifiable even though I think the SP placement was valid as it was). I think both would have put down much better LP's had that happened and there wouldn't have been an olympic gold medalist in abstentia until 2006.

I have to disagree with you there. If you are right in how the judges viewed Kwan and Slutskaya going in, Kwan would never have won the short program. I am not saying the short program result was wrong, my biased self would probably have it switched, but I concede it was very close and could have gone either way. However there is no way that a cautious and flawed skate by Slutskaya with no triple-triple, would have beaten a completely clean and "generic" Kwan with no triple-triple; if the judges were willing to put Kwan ahead even if only on a 5-4 split in the short with both skating cleanly and Slutskaya having the harder jump combo. This was also the short program were the first mark is the tiebreaker and that still happened. It also seems very far fetched Slutskaya's clean and excellent worlds free skate, but with no triple-triple, would have been marked over a clean Kwan with a triple toe-triple toe, given the short program result I referred to.

 

[Mathman]

No one was going to beat Sarah Hughes THAT NIGHT. Nor should they have.

Michelle didn't have to beat Sarah to win the gold medal, just finish ahead of Irina (Sarah was fourth after the short).

As for bloc judging, there were accusations on both sides. The three "Russian" judges together with Denmark (?) were solidly for Irina, putting her even ahead of Sarah in the free skate.

 

[evenstar]

Kwan fans always say Michelle should've beaten Irina in the free skate and win gold. Irina fans always say Irina should've beaten Michelle in the short and therefore win the title. What actually transpired was not really expected and I am content to let it rest.

 

[iloveaxel]

Irina

Irina has been a total mess. She should not have won anything.

 

[Mathman]

^ Well, there was that little competition in Moscow in 2005...

 

[iloveaxel]

^ Well, there was that little competition in Moscow in 2005...

Well, that one, she's sort of on testosterone that night, and Sasha Cohen bombed again. So I have to reluctantly hand it to her.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Actually for Sasha a free skate with 2 small stumbles/mistakes on jumps like she had in the 2005 Worlds free skate is far from bombing. For her own standards it is a great performance since she has proven herself 110% incapable of a clean free skate in global competition. Anybody who believes that is not a great performance for what you can reasonably expect from Sasha in the free skate is kidding themselves.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Kwan fans always say Michelle should've beaten Irina in the free skate and win gold. Irina fans always say Irina should've beaten Michelle in the short and therefore win the title. What actually transpired was not really expected and I am content to let it rest.

I am actually glad it worked out as it did since Sarah Hughes was the only one who did a truly golden free skate that night. That being said she was lucky to not be placed 6th or 7th in the short. Her ordinals in the short program ranged from 4th to 10th, she only had 2 4th place votes IIRC. She ended up 4th due to have the most combined 4ths/5ths, and the fact the judges could not decide who to place 4th in the short.

Her short program was respectable but overall not that impressive, and it was a very strong night of skating. Butyrskaya, Sebeysten, and Suguri could all have easily been placed over her in the short program IMO. If that had happened she would have been lucky to just get a bronze overall.

 

[R.D.]

Kwan fans always say Michelle should've beaten Irina in the free skate and win gold. Irina fans always say Irina should've beaten Michelle in the short and therefore win the title. What actually transpired was not really expected and I am content to let it rest.

:yes: :yes:

 

[Mathman]

Well, bottom line, going just by the results of the competitions and not our opinions and preferences, Michelle was the best skater in the world in the1995-96 season. And she was the best skater in the world in the 1999-2000 season. And in the 2000-2001 season. And in the 2002-2003 season.

Other years, other skaters won that honor.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Well, bottom line, going just by the results of the competitions and not our opinions and preferences, Michelle was the best skater in the world in the1995-96 season. And she was the best skater in the world in the 1999-2000 season. And in the 2000-2001 season. And in the 2002-2003 season.

Other years, other skaters won that honor.

I guess it depends how you look at it.

In the 95-96 season Kwan was the best skater in the world all season, and followed it up by winning Worlds so best skater that season is definitely Kwan. In the 96-97 Lipinski was the the best skater in the world during the period of U.S Nataionls/Europeans onward so best skater that year is definitely Lipinski. In the 97-98 season Kwan was the best skater in the world all season, except for the fact Lipinski won the biggest event of the whole season-the Olympics, tougher call here. In the 98-99 season Kwan was again the best skater in the world all season, except for the biggest event of all-Worlds, where Butyrskaya was clearly the best skater there, so again tough call. In the 99-2000 season Slutskaya was the best skater in the world most of the season, but not at that seasons biggest event the Worlds, so another tough call. In the 2000-2001 season Slutskaya was again the best skater throughout the season except for Worlds-that seasons biggest event, where again it was Kwan, another tough call.
In 2001-2002 Slutskaya was the best skater most of the season, but Hughes was at the biggest event-the Olympics. In 2002-2003 it was Kwan whenever she competed.

2003-2004 brings us the toughest one of all. Cohen was the best during the GP series where Kwan was mostly absent, but Suguri and Arakawa were both competiting(Arakawa losing to Cohen at 3 different events). At the GP final Suguri clearly was the best, and the rightful winner of the GP final over both Cohen and Arakawa, Kwan being absent. Kwan was the best at U.S Nationals over Cohen. Arakawa who had been solid and very strong all season, but not the best anywhere, was the best at Worlds, with Cohen and Kwan winning silver and bronze, and Suguri way back in 7th, so who was the best this season?

2004-2005 Slutskaya was the queen of this entire season I am proud to say, no doubt about it. 2005-2006 Slutskaya was the best during the GP series, with Asada and Arakawa both competiting, Cohen only doing 1 event. However Asada, the second best skater during the GP series, was the best skater over Slutskaya at the GP final, with Cohen absent. Arakawa after not even making the GP final despite being the 3rd or 4th best skater during the GP series(tough fields drawn too), and only being 3rd at her own Nationals, and not even going later to that seasons second biggest event-the Worlds, was the best skater during that seasons biggest event of all-the Olympics, winning gold over both Slutskaya and Arakawa, with Asada absent. With Arakawa, Slutskaya, and Asada all absent, Meissner ends up being the best skater at that seasons second biggest event-the Worlds, winning in decisive and clear fashion with Cohen in the field. So again which out of Arakawa, Slutskaya, Asada, or maybe Cohen was the best skater of this particular season.

This season Ando is the best skater during the GP series by a bit over Kim and Asada perhaps(1st and 2nd for Ando, 1st and 3rd for Kim, 1st and 3rd for Asada). Kim is the best skater during the GP final, Ando is clearly a better skater during this event then Ando though. Ando is the best skater during worlds by a bit over Asada overall.


So I see it:

1995-1996 season best skater-Kwan hands down
1996-1997 season best skater-Lipinski hands down
1997-1998 season best skater-Kwan probably, but an argument for Lipinski(OG)
1998-1999 season best skater-Butyrskaya probably, but an argument for Kwan
1999-2000 season best skater-Kwan probably, but an argument for Slutskaya
2000-2001 season best skater-Kwan probably, but an argument for Slutskaya
2001-2002 season best skater-Slutskaya probably, an argument for Hughes(OG)
2002-2003 season best skater-Kwan hands down
2003-2004 sesason best skater-Cohen probably, argument for Arakawa or Kwan
2004-2005 season best skater-Slutskaya hands down
2005-2006 season best skater-Arakawa I guess, even Asada, Slutskaya, Cohen?
2006-2007 season best skater-probably Ando, argument for Asada or Kim

 

[bekalc]

Kwan fans always say Michelle should've beaten Irina in the free skate and win gold. Irina fans always say Irina should've beaten Michelle in the short and therefore win the title. What actually transpired was not really expected and I am content to let it rest.

LOL. In the end, both girls had the opportunity to win the Olympic gold medal. And made enough mistakes to fail. I have no doubt that if Irina had skated clean, not all those wobbles and with a triple/triple (even one) she would have beaten Hughes. Maybe even a clean Irina would have won.

As for Michelle a clean Michelle performance would have won as well. For Kwan or Irina fans to blame the judges for both girls mistake's is silly...And especially when you consider what had just happened earlier in Salt Lake...

 

[DaveT]

LOL. In the end, both girls had the opportunity to win the Olympic gold medal. And made enough mistakes to fail. I have no doubt that if Irina had skated clean, not all those wobbles and with a triple/triple (even one) she would have beaten Hughes. Maybe even a clean Irina would have won.

As for Michelle a clean Michelle performance would have won as well. For Kwan or Irina fans to blame the judges for both girls mistake's is silly...And especially when you consider what had just happened earlier in Salt Lake...

But Irina had 4 first place ordinals and Hughes had 2 as low as 4th, that was fair judging? ESPECIALLY considering what has just happened, there were clearly judges trying to cheat, they DIDN'T CARE what had just happened, Irina needed just one more to win.

Hughes 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Slute 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
Kwan 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

Edited to add that slutskayafan21 is a very objective and insightful poster considering her self identified Slutskaya fandom. You'll never get the Kwan-fan rep, to love Kwan obviously indicates you are mentally unbalanced from what I read.

 

[bekalc]

But Irina had 4 first place ordinals and Hughes had 2 as low as 4th, that was fair judging? ESPECIALLY considering what has just happened, there were clearly judges trying to cheat, they DIDN'T CARE what had just happened, Irina needed just one more to win.

Hughes 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Slute 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
Kwan 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

Edited to add that slutskayafan21 is a very objective and insightful poster considering her self identified Slutskaya fandom. You'll never get the Kwan-fan rep, to love Kwan obviously indicates you are mentally unbalanced from what I read.

Well, I have no doubt there was eastern block judging going on....But well the fact is that the same group of judges gave Michelle Kwan first in the short program (and questionably at that seeing as Irina had a harder combination) So I think while it might have been close a clean Michelle would have won.

BUT, I think that under COP, Sarah most certainly would not have won because a lot of her jumps were cheated. And perhaps, just perhaps some of those judges placed Irina first on that account. It seems to me like even in the 6.0 system, those type of things should have been taken into account (underrotated jumps.)

Under COP, its possible that someone like Suguri who was behind do to the good short programs, but had a good short and long/ would have medaled or won.
And FYI, I'm not really a Kwan or Slutskya fan, I think both are overrated. Kwan- because she didn't do much to raise the sport technically, and Slutskya because well I didn't much enjoy watching her skate. I mean compare what Kristi and Midori were doing in their hey day to what Kwan and Irina did...

I think that Kwan and Slutskya both even in their prime would have a hard time competiting with the young crop now. Thank goodness for Miki, Mao, and Yu-na...

 

[hockeyfan228]

Salt Lake City

Judges:
Krick (GER)
Danilenko (RUS)
Hrachovcova (SVK)
Blangsted (DEN)
Pizzocari (ITA)
Absaliamova (BUL)
Leskinen (FIN)
Islam (CAN)
Inman (USA)

There were three "Eastern Block" judges on this panel: RUS, SVK, and BUL. The Slovakian judge agreed with RUS and BUL once, for first place in the LP for Slutskaya.

The Finnish judge agreed with the US judge for the top four in the LP, but not once in the SP.

SP:
Kwan:
1sts: GER, SVK, DEN, ITA, USA
2nds: RUS, BUL, FIN, CAN

Slutskaya:
1sts: RUS, BUL, FIN, CAN
2nds: SVK, DEN
3rds: GER, ITA, USA

Cohen:
2nds: GER, ITA, USA
3rds: SVK, FIN, CAN
4ths: RUS, DEN, BUL

Hughes:
4ths: SVK, CAN, USA
5ths: DEN, ITA, BUL, FIN
6ths: GER
10th: RUS

Butyrskaya:
3rds: RUS, DEN, BUL
4ths: FIN
6ths: SVK, ITA, CAN, USA
8ths: GER



LP:

Hughes:
1sts: GER, ITA, FIN, CAN, USA
2nd: BUL
3rd: SVK
4th: RUS, DEN

Slutskaya:
1sts: RUS, SVK, DEN, BUL
2nds: FIN, USA
3rds: GER, CAN
4th: ITA

Kwan:
2nds: GER, SVK, DEN, ITA, CAN
3rds: RUS, BUL, FIN, USA

Cohen:
2nds: RUS
3rds: DEN, ITA
4ths: SVK, BUL, FIN, CAN, USA
5ths: GER

The Russian and Bulgarian judges were in synch on Slutskaya and Kwan, but the Bulgarian judge marked Hughes higher -- much higher in the SP -- than the Russian judge, and the Russian judge marked Cohen higher than the Bulgarian judge in the LP.

Germany, Italy, and US agreed on Kwan (1), Slutskaya (3), and Cohen (2) in the SP, but were split on Butyrskaya and Hughes. In the LP, they agreed on Hughes' placement, but were split on Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen.

Had Inman flipped Slutskaya and Kwan to 3rd and 2nd, Slutskaya would have won bronze and Kwan silver, 6 to 5

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

3 Eastern judges and 3 questionable ties to the old Soviet system or just plain Pro European: Germany, Denmark, Finland.

I believe Inman to be a fair judge. Although he enjoys musicality and preferred Kwan in that batch, his giving 1st to Sarah is in line with the points she would have earned in CoP.

In previous contests, Denmark would never give Kwan a 1st.

Italy would always give Sasha 1st.

Joe

 

[gio]

Italy would always give Sasha 1st.

Joe

OT, do you know that generally speaking Italian FS fans prefer Sasha over Michelle. It's something that I've found interesting, when I was reading the discussions in Italian forums and listening the comments of Italian viewers on Eurosport, who were always pro-Sasha.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

OT, do you know that generally speaking Italian FS fans prefer Sasha over Michelle. It's something that I've found interesting, when I was reading the discussions in Italian forums and listening the comments of Italian viewers on Eurosport, who were always pro-Sasha.

I can't speak for the Italian fans but the Italian judge is self evident.

 

[Zuranthium]

Had Inman flipped Slutskaya and Kwan to 3rd and 2nd, Slutskaya would have won bronze and Kwan silver, 6 to 5

Ermmm...no?

Slutskaya still would have had 5 judges putting her ahead of Kwan.

It was impossible for Slutskaya to win Bronze and Kwan win Silver, under the 6.0 system.

If Kwan was second in the LP she won the Gold, if she was third in the LP she won the Bronze.

~Z

 

[Mafke]

It was impossible for Slutskaya to win Bronze and Kwan win Silver, under the 6.0 system.
If Kwan was second in the LP she won the Gold, if she was third in the LP she won the Bronze.

Yeah, one of the weirdnesses of post-figures 6.0 was that past a certain point in the LP skaters at the top often the silver medal wasn't a possiblity.
IIRC Debi Thomas was in the same position in Calgary, after Manley's skate she and Witt were going to split Gold and Bronze, by the time she skated there was literally no way for her to win silver, she could finish gold, bronze or off the podium (I don't think she realized this at the time).
Considering how differently figures were scored from free-skating that system (from 1981 - 1990) was the most fair. After figures were abolished, it didn't make so much sense anymore IMO and one of the (very) few things I like about COP is that skaters can build up a lead after the SP (if deserved) and move up more in the LP (and you never get the 'can't win silver' scenario).