Kwan, Lipinski, and Hughes: A look back

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I didn't know Alexei got mad. He was sort of lucky to be invited back after all the turmoil that surrounded him the last time he was on COI, but I get his point and COI was lucky to have him too as he had a bit of fanfare with American audiences after SLC. However, he seemed to get along with Kwan otherwise.

I do know Irina was mad that she was relegated to the First Act (though I remember there being some dispute as to whether she performed in the second half or not) but said that it didn't really matter much because American audiences don't really appreciate skating the way they should because they eat cheeseburgers during a performance.

 

[Mathman]

^ I think there might also have been discussions of how much money each skater made, relative to the others. I am pretty sure that Tom Collins loved Michelle throughout her career and that Shep Goldberg did not have to negotiate very aggressively on her behalf.

Speaking of the cheeseburger comment, Irina might have had a point. The most popular acts in COI were the hula hoop girl and the acrobats, along with a Surya Bonaly backflip, some schtick from Victor Petrenko, and the audience doing YMCA along with Rudy Galindo The guts and glue of the COI crew.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I remember Rgirl (remember her?) saying Irina usually had great audience reaction due to her speed, power, and charm. Kwan, of course, was a huge moneymaker for COI, especially by 2002. But you know, I've seen some Russian made-for-tv stuff on YouTube, and it's not any more high brow, or if it is attempting to be, it's a bit pretentious and goes over the line to bad taste at times. Of course there are exceptions.

 

[Mathman]

I remember Rgirl (remember her?)...

Did you know that Rgirl was a former touring dancer and that she is the author of a famous book on diet and nutrition for dancers?

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Did you know that Rgirl was a former touring dancer and that she is the author of a famous book on diet and nutrition for dancers?

No I didn't know that!

I did know she had a real background in dance and always knew what she was talking about. I was also very happy that she went from being ho-hum about Kwan to really loving Kwan in the end of Kwan's career with Kwan's Morosov programs where most people had the opposite reaction.

 

[skateluvr]

So it appears that Sarah was out of shape and she didn't skate up to her standards. Amazing how fluting didn't matter then and how today it is all correct edges and full rotation per a slo mo camera.

I still don't see my comments as it was Michelle's fault. It is just the observation that Tara and Sarah despite what they achieved and the great skating are never really talked about as being favorites or great skaters which they were. They simply felt there were other roads to go down.

What endorsements did Sarah get? Is she wealthy like Lipinski?

 

[Mathman]

What endorsements did Sarah get? Is she wealthy like Lipinski?

Well, she got the Wheaties box. (You can buy this one on ebay for 35 cents.)

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTM5M1gxMDMz/z/2jQAAOSwmrlU16tF/$_35.JPG

I remember reading once that that winning the Olympic gold medal in figure skating was automatically worth ten to fifteen million dollars. But by 2002 this rule of thumb was pretty much over, (And in fact, I don't think that Tara got nearly that much out of it.) Not only was figure skating on the decline by 2002, but the whole idea of celebrity endorsements was being called into question. Are you really going to buy a product because a successful athlete tells you to?

They simply felt there were other roads to go down.

In Sarah's case I think that is a good description. If she wants to get rich she can do so as a hot shot lawyer. :yes:

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

So it appears that Sarah was out of shape and she didn't skate up to her standards. Amazing how fluting didn't matter then and how today it is all correct edges and full rotation per a slo mo camera.

I still don't see my comments as it was Michelle's fault. It is just the observation that Tara and Sarah despite what they achieved and the great skating are never really talked about as being favorites or great skaters which they were. They simply felt there were other roads to go down.

What endorsements did Sarah get? Is she wealthy like Lipinski?

Actually flutzing and URs did matter. The issue was that 6.0 didn't tell you how much a judge deducted for it AND it was very deferential to the judge. Nicole Bobek received a lot of comments during her stellar 1994-1995 season when people started to notice her Lutz and Flip looked very similar. Then Tara's lutz was scrutinized when people wondered why the international judges gave her low tech scores at the 1997-1998 Skate America. Then they started zooming in on Kwan's. Then it became a bigger deal once the Kwan's biggest rivals came from Russia who didn't have as many issues with flutzing as the American women. Then URs became a big deal because Sarah Hughes was rising through the ranks and people started to notice it. Some people think that's why her technical marks tended to max out at 5.8 despite having great spins, choreography with content, and 3/3s while regularly doing 6-7 triples without many falls or step-outs. Slo-mo replays started being instituted in the early 2000s (or late 1990s, I don't remember) before COP to look out for issues like take-offs and and URs.

It was then codified in the COP, and they became very real deductions. What also changed was that UR and edge take-offs were now officially identified on the protocol sheet by callers rather than by judges though they can still score the element lower based on those calls. The UR and edge take-offs were given much more focus after the 2007-2008 shake-up because the ISU wanted to encourage skaters to learn correct take-offs and to rotate fully. Now there's talk of dialing that back a bit as it may have gone too far in the other direction. I think this current code is a little more lenient than the 2008-2010 code.

As for Sarah and Tara, it wasn't for lack of trying. Sarah continued for another season, but peaced out. I don't blame her. I think it's hard to stay motivated when you have other interests, and Sarah didn't have as many professional opportunities to explore. She was probably more excited to go Yale. Tara wanted to cash in on her gold right away and be part of the successful professional trek that made Yamaguchi, Boitano, Hamilton, Browning, Witt, etc. huge stars. It was probably enticing to do something more "fun". However, Tara had major injuries and the age difference between her and the other pros made the experience different from what she imagined, I bet. Add in the fact that pro skating's popularity was winding down and it wasn't as lucrative as it once was. I think that had more to do with why their career ended up the way it did rather than resentment from the general population that they beat Kwan. I mean look at Kwan's career now. It's winded down now that she's been away from skating for some time.

 

[skylark]

^ I think there might also have been discussions of how much money each skater made, relative to the others. I am pretty sure that Tom Collins loved Michelle throughout her career and that Shep Goldberg did not have to negotiate very aggressively on her behalf.

Speaking of the cheeseburger comment, Irina might have had a point. The most popular acts in COI were the hula hoop girl and the acrobats, along with a Surya Bonaly backflip, some schtick from Victor Petrenko, and the audience doing YMCA along with Rudy Galindo The guts and glue of the COI crew.

I never saw the Petrenko schtick, but I loved Rudy's program. I think it was because he enjoyed it so much and believed in it.

I agree with Irina's comment.

All those novelty things are the reason Scott, Roslynn, Sandra, created something different with SOI.

 

[skylark]

Actually flutzing and URs did matter. The issue was that 6.0 didn't tell you how much a judge deducted for it AND it was very deferential to the judge. Nicole Bobek received a lot of comments during her stellar 1994-1995 season when people started to notice her Lutz and Flip looked very similar. Then Tara's lutz was scrutinized when people wondered why the international judges gave her low tech scores at the 1997-1998 Skate America. Then they started zooming in on Kwan's. Then it became a bigger deal once the Kwan's biggest rivals came from Russia who didn't have as many issues with flutzing as the American women. Then URs became a big deal because Sarah Hughes was rising through the ranks and people started to notice it. Some people think that's why her technical marks tended to max out at 5.8 despite having great spins, choreography with content, and 3/3s while regularly doing 6-7 triples without many falls or step-outs. Slo-mo replays started being instituted in the early 2000s (or late 1990s, I don't remember) before COP to look out for issues like take-offs and and URs.

It was then codified in the COP, and they became very real deductions. What also changed was that UR and edge take-offs were now officially identified on the protocol sheet by callers rather than by judges though they can still score the element lower based on those calls. The UR and edge take-offs were given much more focus after the 2007-2008 shake-up because the ISU wanted to encourage skaters to learn correct take-offs and to rotate fully. Now there's talk of dialing that back a bit as it may have gone too far in the other direction. I think this current code is a little more lenient than the 2008-2010 code.

As for Sarah and Tara, it wasn't for lack of trying. Sarah continued for another season, but peaced out. I don't blame her. I think it's hard to stay motivated when you have other interests, and Sarah didn't have as many professional opportunities to explore. She was probably more excited to go Yale. Tara wanted to cash in on her gold right away and be part of the successful professional trek that made Yamaguchi, Boitano, Hamilton, Browning, Witt, etc. huge stars. It was probably enticing to do something more "fun". However, Tara had major injuries and the age difference between her and the other pros made the experience different from what she imagined, I bet. Add in the fact that pro skating's popularity was winding down and it wasn't as lucrative as it once was. I think that had more to do with why their career ended up the way it did rather than resentment from the general population that they beat Kwan. I mean look at Kwan's career now. It's winded down now that she's been away from skating for some time.

I think your last paragraph answers very well the topic question of the thread.:agree:

thanks also for your history of the flutz and URs. It frustrates me. Just to compare 2 US skaters at Worlds, Ashley lost 3.10 points on the 3F-3T in her free skate, with a UR so slight that some people, better versed than I am in the TEC side of figure skating, questioned it. I calculated her points loss on the basis of the score Ashley received (11.00) in the SP for her 3F-3T.
'
Gracie lost the identical 3.10 points (-2.10 GOE, with -1.00 fall deduction) for her fall on the 3L-3T, which was so much more disruptive to her FS program that it's laughable even to speak of it in the same breath. Most commentators, in the moment, praised Ashley's 3F-3T in the free skate, for beauty or lightness or the thrill of it; and they didn't all, in the moment, question if it was a UR. So it wasn't visible enough to be apparent in the moment, even to some of the pros.

I'm not questioning the result AT ALL. I think the placement was right .... and those 3 points wouldn't have made a difference in placement relative to Evgenia. But it does highlight something Sonia Bianchetti has said since 2005, that the technical controller has too much power in IJS. Every human being will make a mistake or have a blind spot on occasion, but if you have 9 judges calling it, an occasional mistake will not be so egregious as when one person has the power to control what all the other judges can or cannot reward.

Beyond that, it baffles me that such a barely visible UR can cost a skater as much as an unfortunate, awkward fall. And it makes me:angry1::angry2::curse: as hell. When you look at those two examples, it's absolutely no surprise that figure skating has lost so much enjoyment for audiences.

 

[Mathman]

I never saw the Petrenko schtick,…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjag2K3xdo

 

[skylark]

^^^^ Creepy. :noshake:

 

[Mathman]

I mean look at Kwan's career now. It's winded down now that she's been away from skating for some time.

She's just getting started.

 

[skateluvr]

^^^^ Creepy. :noshake:

Really? I loved it. Thought is was creative back then and yes I am a Petrenko fan and he is a very generous man. Not all skaters used their money so well. One who was supported by his town bought a Lamborghini. Victor helped the Ukraine not to mention Oksana Baiul.

As for SKYLARKS post- just yes. These tiny URs getting hit so hard under IJS has ruined the sport. No one watching without slo mo cameras would have noticed or cared under 6.0.

Today's skating fans love to,do math. Me I just want to see beauty and a clean program to me is landed jumps without wonky landing. I am surprised we even have skaters who want to deal with IJS. A rotten shame we have no pro tours.

Economically we are headed for world wide collapse. Skating will be largely forgotten or whatever it was in the Great Depression. I just hope YouTube is still existing. The past has the riches for me.

 

[andromache]

The longevity of Michelle's career really says it all. If she had retired after Nagano, her gorgeous programs would've been 100% forgotten by the general populace, only half-remembered by diehards like us. But she's a legend, and it's because she was around so long. Not that I blame Tara or Sarah for retiring when they did--it's completely understandable. Especially with Tara's hip issues.

I don't feel bad for Tara or Sarah for not experiencing the love of the public like Michelle did. Both ladies came from considerable wealth in comparison to Michelle; Tara in particular came from a lot of privilege. Add that to the OGMs and the prestige, both ladies were very successful, and honestly, 99% of Americans were probably just thrilled to see an American win. Us 1% are the critical ones. If I'm going to feel bad for an American lady OGM, it's going to be for Kristi Yamaguchi, who faced actual problems after winning her OGM: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19920308&slug=1479888.

And as critical as I am, Tara was the rightful winner of Nagano with a pretty exciting LP and tons of technical difficulty, and Sarah was also the rightful winner of SLC, though maybe to a lesser extent than Tara. Both put on clean, exciting, upbeat LPs. Like Adelina Sotnikova. Fact is: history shows that when performances are close, the judges favor youth and excitement over maturity and finesse. Same thing happened with Oksana and Nancy.

 

[Mathman]

Economically we are headed for world wide collapse. Skating will be largely forgotten or whatever it was in the Great Depression.

Ice skating was riding high during the Great Depression. These were the days when Sonja Henie won ten straight world championships, became an international sensation, and brought figure skating to silver screen.

Touring ice shows like the Ice Follies were very popular and successful. Maybe they took people's minds off their troubles for a moment.

 

[skateluvr]

Who had money to see ice shows in the great depression. Everyone knows it will be far worse- global meltdown. It can't be avoided even me with no economics history has been waiting. It's terrifying. ButbI think that Sonja survived because everyone could afford the movies.

I have a thread to start in cafe and would like your opinion Mathman. Ty.

 

[skylark]

So, in the middle of the night I thought, "oops, I forgot to add in Gracie's difference in GOE between her SP and LP" ... and then I rolled over and fell asleep again.

When I calculate what Gracie's fall cost her taking that into consideration, it comes to -4.40, not the 3.10 I thought. Sorry.:

But .... it doesn't change the thrust of my post, that it's ABSOLUTELY:ddevil: FREAKING ridiculous that a not-necessarily-visible-to-the-naked-eye UR cost Ashley 3.10 points. And the same goes for Mao, Mirai, and other skaters plagued by UR calls.

 

[temadd]

it baffles me that such a barely visible UR can cost a skater as much as an unfortunate, awkward fall. And it makes me:angry1::angry2::curse: as hell. When you look at those two examples, it's absolutely no surprise that figure skating has lost so much enjoyment for audiences.

Baffles me every time I watch Ashley's LP at Worlds (often) that they called it UR and dinged her so hard. I can't even see it in the slo-mo replay.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If I remember right, I thought Hughes was judged rather harshly at Worlds the year following the OG, but not at Nationals where she won silver. So I think it was the international judges rather than the US ones or USFSA that wanted to send her a message, not because she beat Kwan at OG, but because she won OG without having ever won Worlds or GPF - she wasn't even a National champion.

Hughes dropped her tech content a lot after the Olympics, her underrotations got worse, and she also fell at Worlds. I wouldn't say she was judged harshly. She was just out of shape.