Again, why one of your pet peeves should necessarily become everybody else's pet peeve? There're too many important things to worry about than a flutz, or a lip, or whatever.
Ladies - Free Program
- Thread starter Rosaleen
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Again, why one of your pet peeves should necessarily become everybody else's pet peeve? There're too many important things to worry about than a flutz, or a lip, or whatever.
I guess what you really wanted to say is that Mirai has a true lutz, and she deserves a win today instead of Caroline Zhang? Am I right?
Both of us know what we are talking about.
Yes but this board is but this is about figure skating
/Lena
Actually I was talking about figure skating. For example, to me, a skater who can consistenly land jumps is far superior to an erratic skater who can do a so-called true lutz.
Anyway, I'll stop here. Congratualtions again to Caroline Zhang!! and all podium finishers. Great skate.
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- Mar 23, 2006
I don't think so. She has text book jumps according to what I've seen so far. Another lady with good jump technique is Susanna Poykio.
Of course a skater that has the consistency is better (well other elements except jumps need to be it too then) but I still think the one doing the lutz should get rewarded for it an the consistent skater doing a flutz should get less points for that specific jump. End for me
/Lena
iloveaxel, the technique is very important. Overlooking that is not good. FS is becoming very sloppy. We see more and more improper technique for lutzes, flips, toe loops, travelling spins, bad sit spins, bad Biellmans, bad doghnout spins, bad spirals. FS is not about rotations and contorsionism. Unfortunately these two factors have become too important.
I guess what you really wanted to say is that Mirai has a true lutz, and she deserves a win today instead of Caroline Zhang? Am I right?
Both of us know what we are talking about.
No, I said that its not about the flutz because I'm not sure if Mirai has a flutz or not, I read somewhere that she does flutz, although its minor. Did you even read what I said?
I basically talked about Caroline's flutzing, and then later on talked about how I like Mirai better for different reasons.
As for who deserved to win today, I don't know, I didn't see both girls skate.
But if my understanding of triple flutz is correct, it frankly isn't fair that Mao, Caroline and maybe mirai if its true, gets credit for triple lutz's.
And the point is that perhaps if they actually did a triple lutz rather than a triple flip, they probably wouldn't be consistent.
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For the information of all the "American lady" grousers:
Caroline Zhang DID get -GOEs for the flutz on both 3Z jumps. But the first lutz, in a 3-jump combination, she wound up with 0 GOE overall because the other two jumps were well done. She got -0.57 on the solo lutz.
But Caroline also completed 4 squeaky-clean triples, had a level4 spiral, and got 9 +3 GOEs on her final level4 combination spin.
Mirai's lutzes got -GOE, but she completed 6 triples and had a level4 spiral sequence and 2 level4 spins, all with +GOE.
Ashley got -GOE on her lutzes, but she landed 5 other clean triples, all with +GOE, and had a level4 spiral sequence.
The complaints about the American flutzes are amusing, considering how many ladies in this competition even attempted a triple lutz, and that only one attempt was completed cleanly.
Takeda: 3Z underrotated
Glebova: 3Z rotated, fell
Martinova: 3Z combo, clean
Cagnon: 3Z2T combo -GOE, 3Z underrotated
Samson: 3Z underrotated, 3Z SEQ underrotated
Caroline Zhang DID get -GOEs for the flutz on both 3Z jumps. But the first lutz, in a 3-jump combination, she wound up with 0 GOE overall because the other two jumps were well done. She got -0.57 on the solo lutz.
But Caroline also completed 4 squeaky-clean triples, had a level4 spiral, and got 9 +3 GOEs on her final level4 combination spin.
Mirai's lutzes got -GOE, but she completed 6 triples and had a level4 spiral sequence and 2 level4 spins, all with +GOE.
Ashley got -GOE on her lutzes, but she landed 5 other clean triples, all with +GOE, and had a level4 spiral sequence.
The complaints about the American flutzes are amusing, considering how many ladies in this competition even attempted a triple lutz, and that only one attempt was completed cleanly.
Takeda: 3Z underrotated
Glebova: 3Z rotated, fell
Martinova: 3Z combo, clean
Cagnon: 3Z2T combo -GOE, 3Z underrotated
Samson: 3Z underrotated, 3Z SEQ underrotated
I guess Caroline Zhang has had all the bad stuff you mentioned? :chorus: If so, why she had such an amazing standing O at Nationals for that incredible exhibition performance?
I know, i know, because the audiences are stupid and they can't tell flutz from lutz!! What really kills the sport is this sort of elitist attitude. Let me see again, for normal spectators( i really consider them normal since they're not obsessed with some obscure flutz), Who cares?
Anyway, peace.
Here's the detailed protocol:
http://www.isufs.org/results/wjc2007/wjc07_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf
For all the Caroline Zhang whiners and detractors, she did get a deduction on that so-called 'flutz'. I know, i know, next time, you guys will say she should get -3 deduction instead of -1.
Give me a break.
You totally made my day, chuckm, I really love you LOL, even we didn't really see eye to eye in the past. I am not even an American. LOL.
:chorus: :chorus: What a bizarre figure skating fan base.
Land a flutz first before we talk.
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Well, the public isn't the judges and most of the public cannot tell the difference between any of the jumps. Does this mean that skaters should be allowed to replace a program with all six triples, in fair of a program that is just all triple toes. The audience, won't know the difference? And hey they liked the rest of the program.
A triple lutz is harder than a triple flip. That's why its a big deal because its a sport, and difficulty matters. Also it means that skaters like Mao Asada for example, are essential able to get by while doing 4 triple flips. (And with two getting credit as lutzs, and Mao isn't always docked for her triple flutz.) Skaters aren't suppose to be repeating elements, so that's why it matters.
I DO think it is sour grapes to complain about flutzing. It seemed no one thought Mao Asada was undeserving of any of her wins because she flutzed, but suddenly it's unfair that American flutzers sweep the medals because they flutzed.
Go check the protocols and see how many other ladies landed 6 / 7 triple programs including flip and loop.
If any of the other skaters had come even close to landing the number of jumps and combinations the US ladies did, and were able to do level4 combinations and spirals and get high GOE on them, they would have scored highly, too.
Go check the protocols and see how many other ladies landed 6 / 7 triple programs including flip and loop.
If any of the other skaters had come even close to landing the number of jumps and combinations the US ladies did, and were able to do level4 combinations and spirals and get high GOE on them, they would have scored highly, too.
Where did I mention her in my post?? I was talking in general and I'm not a Caroline detractor, since I've always talked positively about her. Tell me, please. You just like to attack and offend people!!!
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chuckm-thank you for that detailed post! I think what people tend to overlook is the fact the judges are supposed to take many things into consideration when giving +/- GOEs for each jump. Takeoff edge is just one criteria. So, if Caroline was given a -3 from every judge for takeoff edge being wrong, BUT given +GOEs for air position, rotation, landing edge (and whatever else may be taken into considernation) that takeoff edge deduction won't look huge in the end.
IMO, I do think there should be a more severe deduction for flutz and lips since technically speaking, they are NOT lutzes and flips if taken off on the wrong edge. BUT since there is no penalty, I don't see why Caroline (or anyone else) should be heavily penalized if all other aspects of the jump are well done.
IMO, I do think there should be a more severe deduction for flutz and lips since technically speaking, they are NOT lutzes and flips if taken off on the wrong edge. BUT since there is no penalty, I don't see why Caroline (or anyone else) should be heavily penalized if all other aspects of the jump are well done.
Oh, I'm not at all against this medal standings. Most of the Junior skaters in the world aren't up to the American standard. But I think that the person above is wrong to say technique doesn't matter, and that the difference between a flutz and a flip doesn't matter. It does matter for the people who do land clean triple lutzs, that others are able to skirt by with cheating.
So yes, I do think the ISU needs to do something about flutzs. Yes, people sometime make a mistake her and there, but lately it seems like many skaters just learn the triple flip, and flutz their way through the lutz without really learning the lutz. The best way for the ISU to fix this problem, is to count the triple flutz as a flip, which is what it really is.
As for Caroline she does need to fix her technique. It may be fine for her now, but her technique could hurt her when she grows and it could hurt her ability to develop triple/triples.
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Well, it's our choice whether or not to take the bait, right?
You're right!! I'll follow your advice! Next time I won't reply to his/her provocations!
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