Ladies Long Program

[BelleFilleYuna]

Let's not forget Yuna won the free program.
If anything cost her from silver medal that would be her popped lutz.

No need to bash other skaters

 

[feraina]

Here's a nice rinkside review someone posted at FSU:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57774

This perhaps puts into context what I tried to say earlier, which apparently was taken the wrong way:

Poor Miki Ando. I think she cannot bear skating in the second to last group. It affected her psyche too much. When I saw her in practice she was doing triple lutz triple loop easy. I can't think of any injury so bad she had to stop after messing up two jumps. At this stage she either podiums or not skate at all. Shame as she does have a great arsenal of jumps.

I only saw a fuzzy Youtube clip of Miki's skate, so I don't know what her warm-up was like. I feel kinda stupid not having noticed her leg injury, but the icenetwork article mentions that one can just make out the bandage on her calf, so maybe that's why I missed it. The article also mentions that she did two lutzes and a flip at the end of the warm-up, and implies that on the strength of this warm-up, she decided not to withdraw: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080320&content_id=46217&vkey=ice_news
The icenetwork article doubts that Miki will continue her amateur skating career after this. What do you all think?

 

[Wrlmy]

Here's a nice rinkside review someone posted at FSU:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57774

This perhaps puts into context what I tried to say earlier, which apparently was taken the wrong way:


I only saw a fuzzy Youtube clip of Miki's skate, so I don't know what her warm-up was like. I feel kinda stupid not having noticed her leg injury, but the icenetwork article mentions that one can just make out the bandage on her calf, so maybe that's why I missed it. The article also mentions that she did two lutzes and a flip at the end of the warm-up, and implies that on the strength of this warm-up, she decided not to withdraw: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080320&content_id=46217&vkey=ice_news
The icenetwork article doubts that Miki will continue her amateur skating career after this. What do you all think?

She actually injured her calf during morning practice. According to a Japanese article, Morozov mentioned their goal is Olympic, so I think, and hope, she will stay amatuer.

 

[Mathman]

For the sake of argument, Kostner deserved every point under the rules. But I think the rules (as currently formulated) are awful and will alienate the more knowledgeable viewers and not create the new fans that figure skating needs).

There's an intangible aspect to figure skating along with all the bean counting.

Back when it was widely popular (in the US at least), figure skating owed a lot of said popularity to that intangible factor. Like the famous definition of obscenity: I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. In opera I think they call it 'il sacro fuoco' the sacred flame, the elusive quality that separates the flawed-but-great from the technically superior but only very, very good.

Tonight, Kostner didn't have it, Asada didn't have it, Kim only had it sporadically (kind of an off night for her). Nakano had it.

A judging system that can't recognize and reward that is the _wrong_ judging system for figure skating.

When all is said and done, the casual viewer (potential fan) will see the following in Nakano's skate:

1. best performance of the night
2. loses a place (3rd to 4th)

Not good.

I agree with every word of these two posts.

 

[evenstar]

I find it kinda ironic that Kimmie got a better score at the Grand Prix Final with three falls than at Worlds. Oh well. I wish her luck for next season!

 

[Mathman]

Poor Miki Ando. I think she cannot bear skating in the second to last group. It affected her psyche too much.

I wonder how this poster knows what Miki's psyche can or cannot bear?

 

[Saundy]

Well I for one am shocked...who ever imagined in a million years that the Canadian ladies entry would be ahead of the American? :scratch: I certainly didn't! I'm bummed for the Americans, but I can't help but be happy for my fellow country-woman (cheers to Joannie for 5th!) because I've been waiting for such a loooooong time for a Canadian woman to be competitive in singles skating. We've had a major drought on our hands.

However, I'm hoping Kimmie can pull it together for next year. She has so much talent...so, so much talent. :banging:

 

[kyla2]

Judging

Take a look at these posts. Everyone is talking about the judging/judging system. This is really bad for the sport. I have never seen it this bad and we are hardcore fans. Can you imagine what the general public thinks about this??? It is too hard to understand for the average viewer and for us as well sometimes. Mafke is right when he/she says that it is that intagible that elevated the sport and produced the right outcome under the 6.0 system. The new system is also screwing up the sport in terms of performances. They are all over the place and today they were a mess because they were trying to incorporate everything including the ktichen sink into their programs. I really hate what is happening to this sport. Not all change is good. Michelle was right to get out when she did.

 

[Skye]

This wouldn't be enough to change the outcome or anything, but there is one thing that I take real issue with after seeing the protocols: Who the hell would even consider giving Yukari negative GOE on her marvelous, centered, lightning-fast spins?!

With the current ordinals, Yu-Na would have gotten silver. Then again, under 6.0 Yukari would definitely have placed higher.

Yeah, I saw that -2 and laughed outright. But one negative GOE doesn't really have any impact, because the highest and lowest scores are thrown out. Having said that, I can see why Yukari gets low GOEs and occasional downgrades on her jumps but anybody who turns a blind eye to her gorgeous spins does not deserve to be a judge.

I was also wondering why Caroline got even two +2s (and mostly +1s) on her spiral sequence when she was bobbling all over the rink and struggled so much getting in the Bielmann position. I remember the same thing happened at NHK Trophy and she didn't get any negative GOEs there either, so is that considered OK under the current rules?

Another thing that I couldn't quite understand was why Mao's 2A got +1.14 and Yu-Na's only +0.71, considering that both came right at the end of the program and Yu-Na had added difficulty due to the InaBauer entrance.

In the end, I'm glad Yu-Na won the free skate and leg wrap or no leg wrap Yukari definitely deserved the highest Performance/Execution score tonight.

 

[Mathman]

Isn't -1 GOE deduction mandatory for wrong edge? How come this one judge gave +1 on Mao's flutz? Can they give + GOE if everything else was great except for the wrong edge? :scratch:

No, according to the rules, they must give negative overall GOE after an edge call. This is a judge's error (probably just hit the wrong key by mistake -- stuff happens.)

 

[SamuraiKike]

Personally, I cannot fathom anyone saying that Carolina Kostner does not deserve to be on that medal podium considering both phases of this competition. Her silver medal is deserved!

IF ONLY Yu-Na could have hit that Lutz in the SP. So heartbroken about that!

THANK YOU!! Its funny how people always completely forget about the SP. Its who is the best overall on both programs not only who wins the LP. Carolina deserved the medal but I gotta say thanks to the dismal level of the evening and that she was scored very generously on the PC marks but Yukari's mistakes in the TE were more costly

And LOL at the conspiracy theorists, I guess is better to imagine all the ones you want instead of admiting your fave wasnt at her best.

ON a more positive note Im sooo happy Bebe managed to be top 10. I think that surpasses even her own expectations. and Lepisto made a huuuge comeback, really good for her.

 

[Mathman]

Wow, those are quite some statistics! Thanks for compiling. What were the stats like before Michelle Kwan's rise, though? Were they more stable?

From memory...

2001 Kwan (silver in 2002)
2000 Kwan (gold in 2001)
1999 Butyrskaya (bronze in 2000)
1998 Kwan (silver in 1999)
1997 Lipinski (did not compete in 1998)
1996 Kwan (silver in 1997)
1995 Chen (silver in 1996)
1994 Sato (did not compete in 1995)
1993 Baiul (did not compete in 1994)
1992 Yamaguchi (did not compete in 1993)
1991 Yamaguchi (gold in 1992)

 

[feraina]

Yeah, I saw that -2 and laughed outright.

Maybe it was a button-press mistake, which apparently happens (well, they have to press so many damn buttons, instead of just one to give their final score, it's no wonder that they screw up occasionally!).

The only reason I got worried about Yukari's spin is because I vaguely remember someone got -GOE for an otherwise good flying sit spin in a SP just because the free leg touched down momentarily. I can't remember if this is a rule special to flying sit, or SP.

I agree with Kyla and everyone else who thinks this judging system is just not right. A slight under-rotation not interrupting the flow and not visible to the majority of the viewers should not be so harshly penalized, compared to all the other more visible problems of a jump. Rewarding big jumps with great flow, and that's visually exciting -- I'm all for that! But having to spot .25 vs .26 turn short in order to figure out whether a jump would be worth 7 points or 3, well that's just silly! All the post-hoc media analysis try to smooth over the gross illogic of the IJS, but to audiences sitting in the arena or in front of the TV set (and nowadays the computer), this judging system really makes no sense at all!

 

[Mathman]

Take a look at these posts. Everyone is talking about the judging/judging system. This is really bad for the sport. I have never seen it this bad and we are hardcore fans. Can you imagine what the general public thinks about this??? It is too hard to understand for the average viewer and for us as well sometimes. Mafke is right when he/she says that it is that intagible that elevated the sport and produced the right outcome under the 6.0 system. The new system is also screwing up the sport in terms of performances. They are all over the place and today they were a mess because they were trying to incorporate everything including the ktichen sink into their programs. I really hate what is happening to this sport. Not all change is good. Michelle was right to get out when she did.

I agree 100% with these three criticisms of the IJS.

(a) When all the talk is about the officiating and nothing about the performances, that's bad for the sport.

(b) When the expected relation:

skate well, get a high score; skate badly, get a low score

is abandoned, no one will want to watch.

(c) The scoring system encourages skaters to try a lot of things that they know they can't do, secure in the knowledge that the scoring system will reward the attempt more than the actual execution. This, too, is a disaster for the sport, IMHO.

 

[Laine]

Mao was held up over Kostner in my opinion. That axel take off left her sprawling over the ice and doing nothing but forward cross overs for 20 seconds they should have hammered her PCS for that one and yet she got a walk. Overall though it was Nakano who was robbed.

 

[SamuraiKike]

A slight under-rotation not interrupting the flow and not visible to the majority of the viewers should not be so harshly penalized, compared to all the other more visible problems of a jump. Rewarding big jumps with great flow, and that's visually exciting -- I'm all for that! But having to spot .25 vs .26 turn short in order to figure out whether a jump would be worth 7 points or 3, well that's just silly! All the post-hoc media analysis try to smooth over the gross illogic of the IJS, but to audiences sitting in the arena or in front of the TV set (and nowadays the computer), this judging system really makes no sense at all!

I defintely agree with that, hands down should be penalized much more. That would have certainly kept Kostner out of the podium and prevented all the nastiness on this thread

 

[hongligl]

Oh, please. Don't even start. Do I have to say Mao got a +1 GOE from one of the judges for her flutz? And Yukari got a -2 GOE for her spin?
Do you want to keep going?

That's exactly the point I wanted to make. GOE is so randomly assigned to skaters. Yukari's last spin, how fantastic was that, but there was just this one judge that was brave enough to toss out a -2 while all the others giving +2 or +3. I'm not even a Yukari fan. I just can't bear that for the same move, there was a 5-point difference between different judges. That's purely ridiculous.

For the edge call, touch down and step out, wild landing or whatever element , shouldn't there be a relatively clear standard for how much need to be deducted?

As much as penalizing under rotated jumps could push skaters to have higher quality jumps, I really feel that over penalizing (doubled, lower base score plus negative GOE) hurt figure skating. Or at least all those ugly landed jumps shoud be properly reflected in PCS. This system need to be fixed. And it should be fixed earlier and then be FIXED. With a constant changing or interpretating of rules, so many skaters got hurt big time, level 3 this time, level 1 the next, it's a torture to coaches and skaters. There should be no change of rules one year or even two years before the Olympics. Technical specialists need to be trained to have reasonable consistancy, so should the judges. There should also be transparency regarding the levels.

 

[dlarry1]

I agree 100% with these three criticisms of the IJS.

(a) When all the talk is about the officiating and nothing about the performances, that's bad for the sport.

(b) When the expected relation:

skate well, get a high score; skate badly, get a low score

is abandoned, no one will want to watch.

(c) The scoring system encourages skaters to try a lot of things that they know they can't do, secure in the knowledge that the scoring system will reward the attempt more than the actual execution. This, too, is a disaster for the sport, IMHO.

Seems like there's also a parallel between declining ratings and coverage and the rise of the new system as well. It's pretty hard to find much coverage of the ladies' final results even now... Sure, the NCAA tourney is going on, but shouldn't this at least be front page news on a sports website?

 

[feraina]

Seems like there's also a parallel between declining ratings and coverage and the rise of the new system as well. It's pretty hard to find much coverage of the ladies' final results even now... Sure, the NCAA tourney is going on, but shouldn't this at least be front page news on a sports website?

That might be because the American ladies skated so abysmally, and ranked so low (well, for the casual viewing public who's used to the former days of multiple Americans in contention for medals, and hopeful of gold; not to us, we knew 7th was a good showing for Kimmie after her season, and 10th was good for Bebe). If you do a news.google.com search, there are plenty of articles already, mainly Japanese, Canadian, and Swedish.

Here's a Canadian article that's talking about the judging fiasco:
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=389369

 

[hikki]

Was judging that unfair?

I reckon the judging has been refreshingly spot on throughout the ladies' event. Looking at the Judges Details, I cannot find one factor that doesn't reflect what happened on the ice, at least with the top 4 finishers.

Short Program
Carolina's fully rotated jumps with the right edge (- one stepout) and the superb spiral sequence were awarded over Mao's seemingly clean program with the wrong edge on lutz and slow and wobbly spiral sequence.

Yukari wasn't held down with PCS despite her "status" being not yet comparable to the likes of Yuna and Mao.

Yuna's fall, lukewarm spiral/ step sequences were judged accordingly.

Long Program

Aside from the popped 2nd lutz, Yuna executed everything with preciseness and had refined quality. Judges awarded her accordingly.

Mao's fall, lutz with the wrong edge, and the weaker spiral seqence were penalised accordingly. The excellence of her program after the fall cannot be denied, with two 3/3 combos, fabulously intricate and musical step sequence (marks for which I would like to have seen more, especially compared to Yuna's of lesser quality IMO) and the overall delivery of the program.

Yukari's seemingly clean performance was punished for the under-rotated axel and flip. After seeing the slow motion, I agree with the caller.

Carolina wasn't clean, but every jump was fully rotated and she did receive minus GOEs for those jumps. No complaints.

The most surprising of all was that there wasn't a large gap in PCS between the top skaters. With this fact in mind, I can't agree with people who claim so and so was held up. If anything, I was surprised Yukari's PCS was so high.