I agree and all her coach could say after both the SP & LP was "wow". You know she really wanted to say "WTF?" Ashley was totally hosed compared to the other skaters. It's like they wanted to make an example out of her or something. I don't get it.
Ladies LP
- Thread starter PolymerBob
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I agree and all her coach could say after both the SP & LP was "wow". You know she really wanted to say "WTF?" Ashley was totally hosed compared to the other skaters. It's like they wanted to make an example out of her or something. I don't get it.
Well, Caroline has beaten Ashley in both PCS and overall score every single time they've competed together in international competitions, I think that's not a coincidence.
Ashley still looks very juniorish to me. She doesn't have smooth transitions, and her arms need a lot of work. The trouble with her skating style is that while "attack" is great, she only has that single "attack" mode. She needs to branch out a little more.
I thought the hyper-inflated score at National's for the top three would do them a great disservice when it comes time to compete int'l competitions again. Aside from Mirai, who will go to JW with the hype of being the national senior champion (though I bet anything she will not get anything close to 70 there, she got just over 60 on her SP on the JGP so far this season), I don't think Rachael or Ashley should expect anything like what they got at National's. Nor should the fans. Ashley got close to her SB here at 4CC, and that's fair since she skated less than her SB, so she should feel good about some great skates instead of feeling disappointed. If not for what happened at National's, fans would be cheering on her wonderful 4CC debut instead of saying "poor Ashley"...
Maybe what happened to Ashley at 4CC is like what happened to Caroline in the SP at National's. Her 3Lz was wrongly downgraded, even the tech panel admitted so, and that was an automatic -3 GOE, which got her into 7th place instead of 4th, and into the penultimate group, and therefore only 4th place with her best skate of the season. While her score of 119 was okay compared to her GP scores, the other three got way hyper-inflated scores, and so comparably she was treated very badly.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
^ Another plug for Zhang who wasn't there.
Very true. Both Caroline and Ashley participated in senior gp, and Caroline's been getting higher score and higher pcs all season. Why is it suddenly surprising at this point? Aside from the downgrade of flip in sp, there was nothing unfair about the score although I believe she would've received higher pcs had she been in the final group. If anything, 4cc proves that Ashley is still capable of breaking 160 and place top 10 at worlds.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Not remarkably so, however.
Ashley:
Skate Canada, total 150.06, PCS in LP 44.40
Eric Bombard, total 158.63, PCS in LP 50.80
Average, 154.35. 47.60
(Note how close Ashley's 4CC scores (152.46, 47.67) were to her season average GP average.)
Caroline:
Skate America, total 153.35, PCS in LP, 51.76
Cup of China, total 156.32, PCS in LP 48.24
Average 154.84, 50.00
Mathman, you're correct to note that Ashley's been quite close to her seasonal average. She's been skating very consistently clean programs all season. Caroline, on the other hand, always made some mistake or other in at least one portion of each event, hence the big fluctuation in her scores -- in quite some contrast to her scores last year. I think part of it is the growth spurt (she may still look tiny, but she's a LOT bigger compared to last year), part of it is the 3-3 that she's been focusing so much on (she was pretty obsessed with it prior to National's, just look at what Miki's obsession with the quad has done to her), and part of it is also the media expectations (she improved markedly from SP to LP at National's after winning became out of the question).
Obviously Caroline wouldn't be able to score highly if she keeps on messing up here and there. But we saw at GPF how high of a score she's capable of getting (top 4th skater this season so far, and almost 20 points higher than Ashley's almost perfectly clean programs) when she had just one fall (in the LP). If she can skate two totally clean programs, she looks capable of scoring close to 180 under international judging. I don't think one National's championship is going to change her scoring ability, or that of Ashley Wagner's, very dramatically.
You forgot Caroline's most recent int'l competition, GPF:
Total score: 176.48, LP PCS: 53.44
Btw, I'm not sure that Ashley's 3F in the SP is any more rotated than the top three's downgrades in the 3-3. The youtube video is not only blurry, but in the worst possible angle, as it is in line with the jump rather than perpendicular to it. The ESPN video made it look much more suspect.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2004
Has anyone figured out why Ashley only got a level 1 in her SP spiral series?
If you don't hold the first part of the COE spiral for at least 3 seconds, that automatically gets you level 1. Both Mao and Caroline got penalized with that early in the season.
IMO, this was Mao's best SP, FS, and overall performance of the season. The scores just show how Mao's one downgraded jump in her SP and one downgraded jump in the FS overly affected her scores.
For example, her 3F+3T< in the free skate got only 5.51 points. The base value of a 3F by itself is worth 5.50 points. Mao's 3F had good height and rotation and should've been worth at least a +1.00 GoE. So if Mao had only done the 3F, she would've gotten 6.50+ points instead of 5.51 points. Mao got negative points for doing an under-rotated but otherwise good 3T!
She got a triple penalty:
* The base value of the 3T< was reduced from 4.0 to 1.3, the base value of a 2T.
* A GoE penalty is required for downgraded/under-rotated jumps on top of the reduction in base value. So the 1.3 points would've been reduced even more, except that:
* Due to one of the rules for combination jumps, the GoE penalty was not applied to the base value of the 3T<, but to the 3F.
Rochette also suffered from the same type of penalties in the SP and the FS.
For example, her 3F+3T< in the free skate got only 5.51 points. The base value of a 3F by itself is worth 5.50 points. Mao's 3F had good height and rotation and should've been worth at least a +1.00 GoE. So if Mao had only done the 3F, she would've gotten 6.50+ points instead of 5.51 points. Mao got negative points for doing an under-rotated but otherwise good 3T!
She got a triple penalty:
* The base value of the 3T< was reduced from 4.0 to 1.3, the base value of a 2T.
* A GoE penalty is required for downgraded/under-rotated jumps on top of the reduction in base value. So the 1.3 points would've been reduced even more, except that:
* Due to one of the rules for combination jumps, the GoE penalty was not applied to the base value of the 3T<, but to the 3F.
Rochette also suffered from the same type of penalties in the SP and the FS.
Ashley has NEVER underrotated her flip in two seasons, in 4 Junior competitions and two Senior GP events, 18 flips in all.
Ashley is an extremely consistent skater. For her to suddenly underrotate her flip on the 19th execution is highly suspicious. She was HOSED in the 4CC SP, and that was enough to keep her out of the running for the medals.
Caroline is as bad a flutzer as Ashley, and not nearly as consistent a performer. Ashley doesn't have Caroline's spins and flexibility, but she does have better ice coverage and she is a lot faster than Caroline.
Ashley is an extremely consistent skater. For her to suddenly underrotate her flip on the 19th execution is highly suspicious. She was HOSED in the 4CC SP, and that was enough to keep her out of the running for the medals.
Caroline is as bad a flutzer as Ashley, and not nearly as consistent a performer. Ashley doesn't have Caroline's spins and flexibility, but she does have better ice coverage and she is a lot faster than Caroline.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The thing that Caroline Zhang has over the other competitors in her age group, is that she is an utterly mesmerizing performer. How this translates into CoP points, I'm not so sure.
Thanks for pointing out that peculiarity of the scoring system. I had never noticed that before. That's a flaw in the CoP that could easily be corrected.ChrisH said:
Shouldn't that come out in the performance/execution mark?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, only one of the five marks (Performance/Execution) talks about "forming an invisible bond with the audience" -- and that's only one of four or five criteria even for that one mark. So I can imagine a performance where the skater holds the audience in the palm of her hand, yet others score higher in skating skills and transitions, and even in choreography and interpretation.
In fact, this very thing happened in the ladies LP at U.S. Nationals. Caroline's Ave Maria captured our hearts and exhalted our spirits, but Rachael and Ashley skated better in other respects -- plus, Mirai was so far ahead after the short that it didn't matter what anyone else did.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
The way I see it Ashley is a far superior skater than Caroline Zhang. In other words, I agree with U.S. National judges' placement of Ashley above Caroline versus international judges who seems to be placing Zhang over Ashley. Caroline Zhang's slow skating style puts me to sleep and tunes me out of her program in seconds while with Ashley's program I want to watch more and more. I don't think Ashley's skating is juniorish at all; she has just the right balance of style and power. On the other hand, when I see Caroline skating, she reminds me of a toddler taking her first step on ice: sooooo slow and stumbling strokes even. I don't get it when people say Caroline is graceful. I mean what's the definition of "graceful"?
So we all need to follow your feeling? All the international judges need to follow your opinion?
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2004
It looked like it was held for 3 seconds to me.
You're also not supposed to change edge and position at the same time. I don't remember if that was an issue or not.
Ashley was not as fast as usual here at 4CC, I think that's one of the reasons why she didn't get higher PCS. She skated with less energy and less sparkle, and she seemed to be less into her choreography with her heart, but rather just going through the motions, hence giving the impression sometimes of tossing her hands into the air a bit randomly. Skaters (and dancers) tend to exaggerate their movements a bit much (and go through it more abruptly) when they're having an off day in terms of their physical or emotional energy -- they try to compensate by trying harder instead of riding out their natural energy. I don't know if that makes any sense...
In fact, I don't think Ashley was faster in her 4CC LP than Caroline in her National's LP. But of course, we can argue about that and we'll never come to any objective resolution anyway...
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
Have we ever come to an objective resolution on a topic ?
(few exceptions aside, of course...)
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