Ladies - LP

[cooper]

There is a past olys champ name Kristi who had the guts to compete and defended her world title too. So she won worlds, then olys and defended her world title. I won't call the other olys champ who chose not to show up at worlds after olys as "not having guts". They set goals for olys gold, acomplished it and moved on. OTOH, anyone who makes a committment for a competition should try their best to prepare, if they show up at a comp unprepared, what is the point? There are plenty of skaters from their country who want to have a chance at worlds, so if any olys champ who are not committed to the harsh training in between olys and worlds, they should go to Disney land, do dancing with the stars

Tell that to the rabid Korean media. If Yuna didn't paritipate, even though she said yes, and then because she was unprepared, can you imagine the backlash back home? And not to mention the crazy South Korean netizens who gave her messages of condolence one time. She had no choice. She had to fight back and finished it, no matter what.

Yeah, yeah, yeah I'm aware of Kristi.

 

[Daniel5555]

rtureck

BTW, you are not behaving like a coach. You are fulfiling your job description as a YuNa fan. Seriously, tracking down MKs records, just to make a point that it took MK 10 years to win 4 more comps than YuNa's 4 yrs. (i.e. you are saying age and time adjusted YuNa is so much better than MK right) I am a MK fan and I don't even know how many comps she won.

Look, I don't want to make any point. This is just addressing that ridiculous arguments about Yuna's legacy being low or that Yuna and Mao both combined are nothing compared to Michelle, based on how much medals they have. I just want to show how stupid it is.

And if you are looking at a skater's legacy, why can't their jr and novice records be counted

I don't want to count juniors because, I am not sure, but in that case the number of Yuna's gold medals may surpass the number of Michelle's gold medals, which is stupid and may suggest that I try to prove something against Michelle which is not true.
Also I don't think that juniors really affect the skater's legacy. What really affects it is the actual performances and Michelle has more great performances than Yuna, she has more moments that are historically important. There are no doubts about this. At the same time I think that the best performances of Yuna are better than Michelle's, but that is just my opinion.

I think that every fan of Yuna should respect very much, at the least, Michelle Kwan because she is the biggest inspiration for Yuna. 1998 Olympics were especially important for her and that it wasn't good program is absolutely not true. So I really can't underestimate how great Michelle Kwan is... I think that Yuna Kim actually can be considered Kwan's legacy too which only adds to how really historically important she was, inspiring not only American skaters, but skaters worldwide.
But at the same time I think that Michelle's fans also should consider Yuna, because she is the favorite skater of Michelle Kwan. And if there is any successor to Michelle Kwan, that's Yuna Kim. Maybe it's not that clear historically, but it is very true if we consider how popular Yuna is in her country, how memorable her performances are and her spiritual connection with Michelle Kwan.

Where on earth did you come to the conclusion tht MK had serious health problems b/c she competed too much??

I'm not sure, but I think that Michelle Kwan was skating with pain for several years near the end of her career. You must know better, if you are her fan. I may be wrong here, but I think that she had to overcame pain each time she skated. Yuna, as far I know, is skating without pain (but she was feeling pain some years ago). She already has her back which seems to be the risky zone for the rest of her life and I don't want her to risk her health or feel any kind of pain for some legacy or other stupid ****.

Huh?? Ito inspired many skaters in Japan, so did Yuka Sato (who BTW has much less medals than Mao). You can never count Mao out as an inspiration to future generations of Japanese skaters.

I don't count her out, but Midori was the first one of the first generation of Japanese skaters. Mao may inspire a lot of skaters, which she probably does and it's wonderful, but that won't be the first generation. Yuna, however, will be the same as Midori Ito, but for Korea.

Ito inspired many skaters in Japan to go for the triple axel, because she is one of the first (really don't remember whether Ito or Harding landed the triple axel in comp first).

I think, it was Ito.

Bennett

BTW, there was something on the ice when Mao skated. The Japanese commentator mentioned that during her steps. I was also distracted by that object. What was it? Was it a chunk of ice?

I noticed it too. I think it had red colour, so it was not ice. Don't know what it was.

 

[RumbleFish]

So in my opinion the result should be:

1. Manouk gijsman, ned

2. Sarah hecken, ger

3. Caroline zhang, usa

Oh, I can see a bright skating career from your kid.

 

[rtureck]

I wouldn't say the situation was similar to Kristi's.
Kristi did not gave a performance of her life in Albertville, and the Worlds was in her home country.
She obviously at that time had more to prove than KYN has right now.
I don't know whether it had any influence in her showing up at the Worlds, but Kristi had less endorsement contracts than even Kerrigan IIRC.

Oh please take away she country/location/jet lag out of this. Skatersleave their country to train/ compete/ work with choreographers all the time. It is part of the life of a competitive skater. If location is so important to you then many skaters have to leave their country to Canada to compete at olys, are you saying Joannie Rochette has an added advantage compare to Mao since olys was at the location where she lived? What does skate of one's life at olys has to do with going to world or not? Are yu saying KYN is so out of shape that one skate of her life took so much stamina out of her that she has no stamina/energy left? BTW KYN fans has been pointing out at every turn that she is so superiore that she wins with flawed programs, so it shouldn't take a repeat of a skate of her life to win worlds right? Endorsement deals is totally irrelevant in this discussion. Unless you are saying that Kristi didn't have much endorsement deal thereforeshe did nothave to take time tomeet with endorsers? I guess unlike Mao who is swamped with commercial endorsers?


I was replying to Cooper who put past olys champ down by not "having guts" to return to worlds after olys.

 

[RumbleFish]

Oh please take away she country/location/jet lag out of this. Skatersleave their country to train/ compete/ work with choreographers all the time. It is part of the life of a competitive skater. If location is so important to you then many skaters have to leave their country to Canada to compete at olys, are you saying Joannie Rochette has an added advantage compare to Mao since olys was at the location where she lived? What does skate of one's life at olys has to do with going to world or not? Endorsement deals is totally irrelevant in this discussion. (BTW, you set the example of saying the KYN didn't return to Korea and met with commericial endorsers).

I was reply to Cooper who put past olys champ down by not "having guts" to return to worlds after olys.

I see that you have serious reading disabilities.
I said Kristi had much more to prove by competing in the Worlds than KYN, especially the Worlds was in her home country.
I didn't say a thing about location or logistic of competition.
I mentioned Kristi's modest endorsement deals post Olympics to emphasize that she was underrated at the time, and didn't say a thing about KYN's commercial activities.

You can babble about your crap discussion as long as you'd like for all I care.

 

[rtureck]

Also I don't think that juniors really affect the skater's legacy. What really affects it is the actual performances and Michelle has more great performances than Yuna, she has more moments that are historically important. There are no doubts about this. At the same time I think that the best performances of Yuna are better than Michelle's, but that is just my opinion.

I think a skaters completerecord contribute to their legacy, therefore I always count Kristi world jr told in pairs as part of her legacy. Now you are switching to performances as part of a skaters legacy. Please note that is very subjective. You think Yuna's best performance is better than MK's, others think the opposite . BTW I will never doubt your count for Yuna the 14, I know never doubt a fan's statistic about their favorite. I amnot sure your count of 19 for Mk is entirely accurate. She turned senior at 13, and won olympic festival comp that year, then I think she has a perfect winning record at SA. She don't think she competed at 4CC (because USA ladies field, US federation doesnot send top guns to 4CC< so if you include 4CC wins in YuNa's column in someway it skews the comparison). Mk practically won all skate canada including 1997 where she broke her toe).

I think that Yuna Kim actually can be considered Kwan's legacy too which only adds to how really historically important she was, inspiring not only American skaters, but skaters worldwide.

Interesting concept, so we may add Fumie, and Kostner to Kwan's legacy since they too said Kwan inspired them.

But at the same time I think that Michelle's fans also should consider Yuna, because she is the favorite skater of Michelle Kwan.

And I thought Janet Lynn is MK's favorite

 

[Mathman]

There are bunches of skaters that can do a clean 7 triple jumps without 3-3's in their career.

Hmm. I am trying to think of who these bunches of skaters might be, who have done a 7-triple program with no triple-triple. I believe that the only current skater who can do it is Akiko Shizuki.

Michelle did 7-triple programs eleven times in major competitions in her career. I am not so familiar with the records of Asada and Kim, so I am not sure how many times those skaters completed 7 triples. Not recently, I believe.

 

[rtureck]

I said Kristi had much more to prove by competing in the Worlds than KYN, especially the Worlds was in her home country.
I didn't say a thing about location or logistic of competition.
I mentioned Kristi's modest endorsement deals post Olympics to emphasize that she was underrated at the time, and didn't say a thing about KYN's commercial activities.

You can babble about your crap discussion as long as you'd like for all I care.

You too can babbleabout your "crap" on Kristi's endorsement, and and world being at USA, that has notnin g to do with my opinion of a skater should try their very best to prepare for a comp, once they made a committment.

Tell that to the rabid Korean media. If Yuna didn't paritipate, even though she said yes, and then because she was unprepared, can you imagine the backlash back home? And not to mention the crazy South Korean netizens who gave her messages of condolence one time. She had no choice. She had to fight back and finished it, no matter what.

Yeah, yeah, yeah I'm aware of Kristi.

I still think if a skater is not ready or willing to go through the harsh training between olys and worlds, don't go. Going to worlds unprepared and did less than expected is not going to paciify "rabid media". Skaters do have choices for not bowing to the media or their federations

 

[Mathman]

BTW, there was something on the ice when Mao skated. The Japanese commentator mentioned that during her steps. I was also distracted by that object. What was it? Was it a chunk of ice?

I heard that it was a hair clip that had fallen off of Mao's hair..

 

[cooper]

You too can about your "crap" on Kristi's endorsement, and and world being at USA, that has notnin g to do with my opinion of a skater should try their very best to prepare for a comp, once they made a committment.

She did her best and mistakes happened. Yuna said it on her interview.

 

[brianjyw]

The judges were on crack at the Olympics. Holy score inflation in all the disciplines; PBs and WRs everywhere.

Well...it wouldn't hurt anyone as long as no one is misplaced right? I hope so. At least most of skaters went home and got praised for breaking their PC.

I would certainly have given her lower scores on Performance and Execution at least; Yu Na wasn't rock solid unlike Mao and her errors really detracted from the performance.

I would certainly agree with you if the negative points for not being rock solid outweight the positive points Yuna for being rock solid on other elements.

I also don't think Mao deserved lower Interpretation scores than Yu Na either; I hate her Bells of Moscow FS but her interpretation of it was really good in the FS, the best all season imo.

Yuna's LP was scored first and whatever the score Mao got have nothing to do with Yuna having a higher score than Mao. If judges were trying to place Yuna higher than Mao, they should have given Mao much lower score. Mao got what she deserved. Period. Once again, if we start talking about judges fixing scores then it is going to be really ugly. So I hope no one goes there.

Yu Na came across as a little flat last night, like she wasn't really listening to the music and just going through the motions.

I think Yuna's SP must have affected people's perception about her LP skating. She messed up relatively simple routines in SP and people were shocked by this and then their mind was reprogrammed in such a way that Yuna was flat, didn't skate with the heart, didn't skate with the music and etc....

For reference, here's the PCS judging criteria: http://www3.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

Thank you for this.

So in your opinion, how would you have marked Mao vs Yu Na and why?

Let me put it this way. Instead of me marking their scores, let me tell you why I think Yuna got higher PCS scores than Mao.

• Throughout this season, I have heard many complaining why a clean Mao couldn't beat not-so-clean Yuna. Judges have been telling everybody what they wanted from a top skater. Instead of fixing their weakness to meet the criteria judges value the most, many of them could not catch up with them or just ignored them. The end result is what we saw at the Olympics and Worlds this year IMO.
  
• You may not like it but PAST performances counts when it comes to PCS. Throughtout this season, I believe Yuna always had higher PCS (please correct me if I am wrong). So Yuna had an advantage here. A good example is ... remember how everyone liked how Mirai did her LP at the Olympics? But she got 6 points less than Mao who made 2 mistakes which should have affected her PCS (I shouldn't have mentioned Mao's name here because I personally think she got what she deserved). I think you can find a lot of similar cases. So I don't understand why they are fussing about Yuna having higher PCS than Mao? It happens all the time and I don't think Mao's fans are in a position to complain about Yuna's score when they benefitted from this PCS system.
  
• PCS is not cut and dry as some of people think it should be because it is subjective one way or the other. So I don't think it should be an issue if some judging may look a little bit off to general public. It is like a standard diviation. As long as a score remains within SD , there is no point in arguing there is something wrong with a particular judging. Even if it is a little bit outside of the normal range, it shouldn't matter too much as long as it does not affect placements. If you don't like ambiguity of judging systems, then you shouldn't bother watching a sport with a judging system.

I fail to understand how Yu Na deserves higher PCS for such an uninspired skate. And this comes from someone who has loved Yu Na since 2007.

I hope you are not becoming one of those turncoats who turn against their favorite players when she/he can't deliver goods they wanted.

I wouldn't call it as far as "uninspired." even though it is disappointing. I understand that it is really hard for people to understand PCS because it is subjective by nature. So it won't satisfy everyone. No matter how much you hate PCS, you have to live with it unless you want FS without music (PCS). You know what? If Yuna got really low PCS then people would probabley complain that Yuna's PCS at the Olympics were fixed by judges to give away the Gold to Yuna because two mistakes should have affected her PCS so much. :think:

Overall, I respect your arguments and I wouldn't totally disregard them even though I couldn't agree at the moment. Well, I might find myself on the wrong end of the stick in the end.

 

[janetfan]

Hmm. I am trying to think of who these bunches of skaters might be, who have done a 7-triple program with no triple-triple. I believe that the only current skater who can do it is Akiko Shizuki.

Michelle did 7-triple programs eleven times in major competitions in her career. I am not so familiar with the records of Asada and Kim, so I am not sure how many times those skaters completed 7 triples. Not recently, I believe.

Was wondering - did Lu-Chen have a few 7 triple programs to her credit without a 3x3?

And what about Irina?

 

[Daniel5555]

rtureck

BTW I will never doubt your count for Yuna the 14, I know never doubt a fan's statistic about their favorite. I amnot sure your count of 19 for Mk is entirely accurate.

I counted 13 for Yuna, not 14. If you doubt about Michelle, count for yourself, what I can say.

because USA ladies field, US federation doesnot send top guns to 4CC< so if you include 4CC wins in YuNa's column in someway it skews the comparison

The comparison is skewed for too many reasons to count. Again, it's not me who started to compare that. (the guy above my post can tell you a lot how to compare skaters of different generations)

Interesting concept, so we may add Fumie, and Kostner to Kwan's legacy since they too said Kwan inspired them.

Sure.

And I thought Janet Lynn is MK's favorite

I never heard her mentioning Janet Lynn, but well, I don't read about her too much, you must know better. But at least from skaters that compete now, Yuna is her favorite which is more than enough. Janet Lynn could be the inspiration for Michelle.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Hmm. I am trying to think of who these bunches of skaters might be, who have done a 7-triple program with no triple-triple. I believe that the only current skater who can do it is Akiko Shizuki.

Michelle did 7-triple programs eleven times in major competitions in her career. I am not so familiar with the records of Asada and Kim, so I am not sure how many times those skaters completed 7 triples. Not recently, I believe.

Joannie Rochette.

 

[janetfan]

rtureck


I never heard her mentioning Janet Lynn, but well, I don't read about her too much, you must know better. But at least from skaters that compete now, Yuna is her favorite which is more than enough. Janet Lynn could be the inspiration for Michelle.

Michelle's coach, Frank Carroll still thinks of Janet as the greatest free skater and used her tapes to teach Michelle. I am sure he will be using Janet's tapes to teach Mirai this off-season. I seem to recall reading that Brian Orser uses tapes of Janet to teach his skaters too.

Brian Boitano has mentioned how he studied Janet's skating - and many coaches still regard Janet's skating very highly and use tapes of her to teach proper position and expression.

That is quite a legacy.

 

[cooper]

I still think if a skater is not ready or willing to go through the harsh training between olys and worlds, don't go. Going to worlds unprepared and did less than expected is not going to paciify "rabid media". Skaters do have choices for not bowing to the media or their federations

BUT you're not in her situation. It's easy for you to say that.

 

[I-witness]

Has any one posted this?
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?31803-Ladies-Long-Recap

I cannot agree more with what the author says about Mao's not being not placed first in LP.
It's just so ridiculous. Something is clearly going wrong with judges.

>AMAZING!!! Great job...so happy. That should really seal the deal, not sure if anyone can beat that. Score: 129.50, ARE YOU KIDDING ME THAT SHE DIDN'T BEAT KIM IN THE FREE? That's ridiculous. I don't blame Mao for looking mad - she must have gotten downgraded, right?? I don't understand what is going on. overall: 197.58, she's in first. UPDATE: Second triple axel was downgraded, so she only had five triples, like Kim. But come on, she sold that performance more than Kim did tonight, and it was a great skate. Weird.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Michelle's coach, Frank Carroll still thinks of Janet as the greatest free skater and used her tapes to teach Michelle. I am sure he will be using Janet's tapes to teach Mirai this off-season. I seem to recall reading that Brian Orser uses tapes of Janet to teach his skaters too.

Brian Boitano has mentioned how he studied Janet's skating - and many coaches still regard Janet's skating very highly and use tapes of her to teach proper position and expression.

That is quite a legacy.

True, but it proves that a legacy can spring from many places.

 

[Daniel5555]

janetfan

Michelle's coach, Frank Carroll still thinks of Janet as the greatest free skater and used her tapes to teach Michelle. I am sure he will be using Janet's tapes to teach Mirai this off-season. I seem to recall reading that Brian Orser uses tapes of Janet to teach his skaters too.

I know that.

To recap some other things:
If you think that Yuna did bad by coming to the Worlds, you are clearly out of your mind. It's never bad to come and try. Sasha Cohen did try to return to compete this season, but couldn't do it. Well, I hope no one bashed her for this.
So Yuna should be well respected for this. And she was preparing and was prepared for it, that's why she got silver. Sure she could do better, but she did amazing anyway.

Her silver medal is really big achievement. She didn't repeat what Kristi did, but it was a good try and amazing comeback from 7th place to 2nd.

 

[mikiandorocks]

I think the judges got the right people on the podium. I feel very sorry for Miki but she didn't help herself in the SP with that mistake on the 3lutz and not having a combo. It was a great effort in the LP but she was just to far behind. Kim is a phenom. It's true that she had visible mistakes but everything else was done with such quality. Kim has amazing skating skills. Her skating and her speed look effortless. Even with the mistakes I think Kim deserved her silver medal. In what concerns Asada Mao, she is the winner by any doubts. I just hope all of them stay around for at least one more season.