Ladies - LP

[bekalc]

Again, to go along with the earlier discussion, technical imprecision takes its toll on artistry. If we went to a ballet and the dancers lacked the technique to transmit the choreography to the stage (or if they fell down trying), we would not leave the theater marvelling at the wonderful work of the choreographer.

Exactly, that's my biggest issue with the way PCS are judged right now. In 6.0 came the correct concept that multiple glaring errors hurt the overall affect of the problem. Another issue I have with the system, is while intricate choregraphy should be rewarded. Something that people need to consider is the fact that not every skater has access to a Lori Nichol. Great choregraphers actually cost money.. And you could have a skater who is perfectly capable of harder choregraphy, but they at this point can't afford it. However, this skater could still be a really great skater with amazing jumps, and someone who can present and perform well to the audience.

If intricate choregraphy becomes more important than the actual performance, or the execution of the elements, that's going to put skaters from smaller countries, at even more of a disadvantage. Whereas if execution and performance matter more than perhaps said skaters, could eventually win enough competitions to where they could afford a better choregrapher. That's something for people to think about in this rush to make singles skating into ice dancing.

 

[janetfan]

Exactly, that's my biggest issue with the way PCS are judged right now. In 6.0 came the correct concept that multiple glaring errors hurt the overall affect of the problem. Another issue I have with the system, is while intricate choregraphy should be rewarded. Something that people need to consider is the fact that not every skater has access to a Lori Nichol. Great choregraphers actually cost money.. And you could have a skater who is perfectly capable of harder choregraphy, but they at this point can't afford it. However, this skater could still be a really great skater with amazing jumps, and someone who can present and perform well to the audience.

If intricate choregraphy becomes more important than the actual performance, or the execution of the elements, that's going to put skaters from smaller countries, at even more of a disadvantage. Whereas if execution and performance matter more than perhaps said skaters, could eventually win enough competitions to where they could afford a better choregrapher. That's something for people to think about in this rush to make singles skating into ice dancing.

Good points - but I have to wonder........your big beef seems to be that Joubert should have finished ahead of Chan. Are you trying to say Joubert can't afford a top choreographer?

I suspect he is too smart to waste his money for something he simply is not capbale of - skating to complex music with a program full of TR and sophisticated IN and CH.

Besides, he just smiles, does a pelvic thrust, the walking man and voila - top marks for TR, CH and IN - even though most can see how much more Chan is doing for the entire program.

If we are to carry your point further - maybe in USA every skater should get equal time with Frank Carroll since it is unfair to other girls that Mirai is benefitting from his expertise.

i think you make a fair point - but it sounds a little more utopian than the way things are in the real world.

And what about skaters like Mao and Yuna - who have multi-million dollar sponsors. Do you think they should be prohibited from using the money they earn from endorsements to further their skating careers?
And what about the government sponsorship the Chinese Pairs teams receive? How are the Russians supposed to compete against that?

 

[Mathman]

^ For whatever reason, it seems like Brian Joubert just cannot find choreography that suits his strengths. I believe that his first choreographer was his longtime coach, Veronique Guyon, but presumably during this period they were more interested in learning the jumps. Where Brian went wrong, in my humble opinion, was to join the stampede to Morozov (rushing alongside Michelle Kwan in 2003, among oithers )

Morozov had just come up with the coolest footwork section ever for Yagudin's short program Winter This was basically the only thing that Morozov ever did, but at the time it was hot stuff and everyone wanted to be mini-Yags. Alexei, ever the virtuoso, could pull off this prancy, mincy, toe-tippy stuff, but Brian looked like a fool. (He hasn't completely given up the concept today). Then he tried to be little Kurt Browning for a while, until Kurt gave up on him. Now I guess he is with Platov -- maybe Evgeny hopes to make a dancer out of him.

When Brian asks me for my advice (I expect the email daily ), I will tell him to do what Michelle Kwan did after 2002. Make the elements the choreography. Michelle was criticised for self-choreographing "empty" programs -- Aranjuez, Tosca, Borero (Bolero was nominally by Christopher Dean, but by the time Michelle was through with it there wasn't much Dean left). In my opinion, however, they were "empty" only of the little Baroque curliques that marked her early Lori Nichol programs. The new Michelle was a lean, mean skatin' machine. And this produced several of her all time great performances, such as 2003 Worlds Aranjuez and 2004 U.S. Nationals Tosca. In these programs the scored elements drove the choreography and interpretation. I think Joubert could do the same thing, let Chan be Chan, and the devil take the hindmost.

 

[bekalc]

Janetfan, can you give me a quote where I wuz robbed Brian overall and said that Brian deserved to beat Chan. I actaully didn't have a problem with Patrick's placements at this competition or last year's worlds. I was actually more than a bet meh over both Brian and Joubert's PCS for Worlds though. Both were quite messy. I'm not really sure who I'd put ahead. Both are stronger than Michal right now, so I'm not sure I disagree with them medaling...

I don't feel sorry for Joubert. His federation has been trying to get him to go abroad for years to work on the things like transition/choregraphy he would need to be competitive. I also think you are underestimating Brian's talent a bit too.

But in actuality, I was wuzrrobing this kid called Brezina. Who everyone says is underchoregraphed. He made a comment in an interview about how he would like to work with better choregraphers, but at this point can't afford to. He's not the only one in this situation-I'm sure. Lots are. Not saying Brezina could actually handle Chan like choregraphy now. :lol:. But I'm just saying when people complain about programs, they perhaps need to think about how much money it takes to get a great program.

And now I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to use their money. But I am saying we need to think carefully if we want to make intricate choregraphy the be and end all. Because it puts a lot of naturally talented skaters, at a disadvantage. That hurts our sport.

And what about skaters like Mao and Yuna - who have multi-million dollar sponsors. Do you think they should be prohibited from using the money they earn from endorsements to further their skating careers?
And what about the government sponsorship the Chinese Pairs teams receive? How are the Russians supposed to compete against that?

Well money is always going to pay for better training etc. So no I don't think people should be banned from using their money. But what I do think is that perhaps their could be a balance. (I don't feel sorry for Asada at all in this situation) But essentially the judges decided that Kims better transitions and choregraphy mattered more in PCS than the fact that Mao actually out skated her. Kim won the long on the basis of PCS, not on the basis of the elements. And she even got higher P/E than Yu-na. That's frankly ridiculous. Does anyone seriously think that Kim had the better performance? Seriously?

Choregraphy should still matter and be weighted in there. But things like the actual performance should matter too. If someone is falling multiple times, that means they really can't handle their more intricate choregraphy. And it would only be fair to actually have it shown in the PCS. That would make the system, just a little bit more fair for everyone.

 

[janetfan]

Janetfan, can you give me a quote where I wuz robbed Brian overall and said that Brian deserved to beat Chan. I actaully didn't have a problem with Patrick's placements at this competition or last year's worlds. I was actually more than a bet meh over both Brian and Joubert's PCS for Worlds though. Both were quite messy. I'm not really sure who I'd put ahead. Both are stronger than Michal right now, so I'm not sure I disagree with them medaling...

I don't feel sorry for Joubert. His federation has been trying to get him to go abroad for years to work on the things like transition/choregraphy he would need to be competitive. I also think you are underestimating Brian's talent a bit too.

But in actuality, I was wuzrrobing this kid called Brezina. Who everyone says is underchoregraphed. He made a comment in an interview about how he would like to work with better choregraphers, but at this point can't afford to. He's not the only one in this situation-I'm sure. Lots are. Not saying Brezina could actually handle Chan like choregraphy now. :lol:. But I'm just saying when people complain about programs, they perhaps need to think about how much money it takes to get a great program.

And now I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to use their money. But I am saying we need to think carefully if we want to make intricate choregraphy the be and end all. Because it puts a lot of naturally talented skaters, at a disadvantage. That hurts our sport.

OK - sorry if I misunderstood your position regarding Joubert and Chan.
I don't underestimate Joubert at all. I think he is way more talented than Evan - but it is easy to see who trains harder and has more determination to achieve a goal.

I like Brezina alot and since he is now the #1 skater from the Czech Republic I find it hard to believe he can't get funding for choreography.

Rippon is certainly a more fluid CoP skater than Brezina right now - but not sure if he is really as talented.
I think Brezina might be ready for a top coach now who can smooth over his rough spots.
A good choreographer would help and i guess with CoP it is more and more important.

But even though I think your point is valid I don't know how to address it.
Rippon's family can afford the Cricket Club and he trains with Orser/Wilson. Maybe Brezina can't afford it. And his federation won't help him.

What should be done? Surely you don't want Rippon to stop being trained so Brezina won't be left behind?

There is alot of film and YouTube available. Canadian choreogrpahers have really led the way to milking the CoP. If Russian and E. European choreographers and coaches can't figure it out then they should find a different line of work.

I suspect part of it has been stubborness. Now they have no choice unless they want to give up more to Asian and N. American skaters. Does Brezina need Lori or does he need a Czech choreographer with talent who has studied Lori and Wilson's programs?

 

[miki88]

Well money is always going to pay for better training etc. So no I don't think people should be banned from using their money. But what I do think is that perhaps their could be a balance. (I don't feel sorry for Asada at all in this situation) But essentially the judges decided that Kims better transitions and choregraphy mattered more in PCS than the fact that Mao actually out skated her. Kim won the long on the basis of PCS, not on the basis of the elements. And she even got higher P/E than Yu-na. That's frankly ridiculous. Does anyone seriously think that Kim had the better performance? Seriously?

Choregraphy should still matter and be weighted in there. But things like the actual performance should matter too. If someone is falling multiple times, that means they really can't handle their more intricate choregraphy. And it would only be fair to actually have it shown in the PCS. That would make the system, just a little bit more fair for everyone.

I agree. For a while, I have been thinking that the judges are actually judging PCS based on how much they like the choreography/layout of the program rather than the actual presentation by the skater.

 

[janetfan]

I agree. For a while, I have been thinking that the judges are actually judging PCS based on how much they like the choreography/layout of the program rather than the actual presentation by the skater.

Yuna has some good choreo and the advantage of a close relationship with Wilson.

Let's say Rachael Flatt went to Wislon and asked him to teach her Yuna's Gershwin LP.
And let's say Miki Ando also went to Wislon for the same thing.

Let's give Rachael and Miki a whole season to train and compete the Gershwin. Then let's put them up against Yuna at the Olympics.

Who would win?

See, it is about alot more than the choreo. Sure it helps but not so much if the skater can't deliver the program.

 

[miki88]

Yuna has some good choreo and the advantage of a close relationship with Wilson.

Let's say Rachael Flatt went to Wislon and asked him to teach her Yuna's Gershwin LP.
And let's say Miki Ando also went to Wislon for the same thing.

Let's give Rachael and Miki a whole season to train and compete the Gershwin. Then let's put them up against Yuna at the Olympics.

Who would win?

See, it is about alot more than the choreo. Sure it helps but not so much if the skater can't deliver the program.

Of course it's not just about choreography but it does help in situations as in Worlds LP. Also a good example is Mao herself. When her programs were more well-received, she tended to get higher PCS relative to that time of course, since comparing scores across time can be tricky.

 

[bekalc]

I like Brezina alot and since he is now the #1 skater from the Czech Republic I find it hard to believe he can't get funding for choreography.

I found out by accident that the kid has a forum ,and they have an interview with him translated from Czech, where he said after the Olympics that he would like to work with the North American choregraphers but at this point its not possible financially. http://michalbrezina.informe.com/forum/translations-f16/original-articles-interviews-t31-40.html Now maybe the translation was wrong, but thats what it kind of said. Its not like the Czechs rule the figure skating world. Tomas's father is doctor so its possible they can afford that. Of course Brezina is already able to afford to train abroad as is, and his father I believe was a skater, so he's had his own advantages. Not to mention the fact that he hasn't worked with Michael Huth who has had a ton of skaters who seems to be headcases, is probably the best thing that could have happened to Brezina.

And no, I'm not saying take Rippon away from his top coaches or anything like that. What I'm saying is that when we think about what should actually be valued in skating, that perhaps we need to think about if choregraphy becomes the most important feature in skating. More important than the actual elements or the actual performance. Please don't get me wrong, there needs to be rewards for having good choregraphy of course. But the sport can choose what they want to value, and what they don't want to value and what we want to put priorities on.

Now I have a hard time thinking that someone with Brezina's natural talent and jumping ability. This kid has the quad toe and the quad sal, won't eventually earn enough to where he'll get the best choregraphers. Heck a smart top coach/choregrapher might even recognize a potential money marker here and offer coaching in exchange for prize money. This kid has the talent to I actually think perhaps even dominate in a few years. Because a lot of his peers aren't great jumpers.

 

[seniorita]

When Brian asks me for my advice (I expect the email daily )

If i see him in Paris, I ll give him yours.

And please let some skaters escape Lori Nichol. She is not for everyone. I admit she did wonderful programs for Mirai, but she is not alpha and omega of choreographers. Patrick's program was well choreographed but didnt pay justice to skater nor music and Carolina's programs were nothing special. A winning routine of Lori doesn't mean it is eye-pleasing. Same goes for Wilson.
I like Dickson's work, Lynn Bourne, Browning for rock pieces and maybe some new choreographers will emerge the next years who are not as known nor such expensive. Carolina has said in an interview that everytime Nichol was visiting Italy to look at her programs she was getting 10.000 euros. Not all skaters have this money.
It would be boring if all skaters gathered to 2-3 choreographers. By the way who choreographed Amodio's and Kozuka's programs?

 

[Lilith11]

seniorita, ITA on Dickson; I love his work as well. I mean, he choreographed "Lark Ascending" and "El Tango de Roxanne" for Yu-na and aren't those two masterpieces indeed?

Btw... I... kind of don't get all the flack that Tarasova gets for Mao's choreography. I mean, she was the one who choreographed "Fantasie" back in the 2007-2008 season...

 

[Ren]

I agree with seniorita, that Lori Nichol is not for everyone. That said, I think what would be best is for a skater to find a choreographer/get choreography which would suit him/her. Unfortunately, how do you know that a choreographer would be good for you? How can you tell if it's not working out or if you just need to have faith and stick it out? For example, Zoueva and Shpilband have done a lot of good with Davis/White and Virtue/Moir, but maybe their style wouldn't fit other skaters? What works for some of Morosov's charges might not for other people who might seek him out.

 

[Lilith11]

I agree with seniorita, that Lori Nichol is not for everyone. That said, I think what would be best is for a skater to find a choreographer/get choreography which would suit him/her. Unfortunately, how do you know that a choreographer would be good for you? How can you tell if it's not working out or if you just need to have faith and stick it out? For example, Zoueva and Shpilband have done a lot of good with Davis/White and Virtue/Moir, but maybe their style wouldn't fit other skaters? What works for some of Morosov's charges might not for other people who might seek him out.

Well, the skater could look into the choreographer's past works to see if s/he likes the choreographer's style, no? Or maybe have a short meeting, a kind of informal meeting just to get a feel for the choreographer's style, a kind of dip into the pool so to speak. Really though, it kind of boils down to a mix of luck and instinct. I mean, we could say the same about coaches; how does a skater know a coach is right for them, especially if s/he is the coach's first major pupil? How did Yu-na know Brian Orser would be the right coach for her when he had never taken on a pupil before? A mixture of research/observation, luck, and instinct I say

About Lori... works for some, but not for others. She seems to work for Mao; afterall, she choreographed some of Mao's most successful programs such as "Claire de Lune" and "Fantasie Impromptu"

 

[Daniel5555]

bekalc

Well money is always going to pay for better training etc. So no I don't think people should be banned from using their money. But what I do think is that perhaps their could be a balance. (I don't feel sorry for Asada at all in this situation) But essentially the judges decided that Kims better transitions and choregraphy mattered more in PCS than the fact that Mao actually out skated her. Kim won the long on the basis of PCS, not on the basis of the elements. And she even got higher P/E than Yu-na. That's frankly ridiculous. Does anyone seriously think that Kim had the better performance? Seriously?

This is interesting.
Let me offer my opinion.

First of all, Yuna didn't get higher P/E than Mao Asada (or maybe you meant that Mao get higher P/E, I don't understand what you tried to say), they both got the same punctuation for P/E - 7.95.
Now this may be strange, but for what I understand this is something like "commitment to performance", rather than quality of the performance.
Yuna was out of the performance right after the fall, but probably it was impossible to get up any better and then she had enough indications of her involvement to the program to be scored as much, as Mao Asada.

The biggest difference is actually in Choreography and Interpretation. Well, in the case of Choreography probably it counts depending of choreography and performance matters only until the point after which you can see the actual choreography. So if the errors don't disturb it, it doesn't matter I think.

The Interpretation is just how good is skater "dancing to the music", I guess.

So Mao suffers from that her program is monotonous and doesn't have much of the highlights besides purely technical elements. I guess the only things she does is clapping herself in the face and some movement which looks like she is putting some mask outside of her face. I don't know what's that about...

What I'm saying is that when we think about what should actually be valued in skating, that perhaps we need to think about if choregraphy becomes the most important feature in skating. More important than the actual elements or the actual performance. Please don't get me wrong, there needs to be rewards for having good choregraphy of course. But the sport can choose what they want to value, and what they don't want to value and what we want to put priorities on.

That's how it defined in rules, it's not like the judges decided that Yuna's choreo mattered more than Mao's technical elements. They are all pretty close.

There are 5 elements, 2 of them are directly related to choreography (which are choreography and transitions) and the Interpretation is also partly related to it, I think.
Currently technical elements and GOE have 60% of importance while PCS have 40%, so those 3 elements have approximately 24% of importance. That's a lot. But... We should keep in mind that a good choreography can only work for a good skater. So, it's only Yuna who can skate to a program like Concerto in F. Well, I'm not sure about this, actually. Because I'm talking only about transitions and interpretation, we can lower the difficulty of technical elements, but the program essentially will remain the same. But if we assume that the transitions and interpretation that Yuna does, only Yuna can do, then it's more like 50% the skater and 50% the planning and then the importance of it will be around 10% (because choreography has the value of 5% and then 50% of both interpretation and transition will give 5% more). So 10% of points for choreography only... I don't know, maybe it's too much or not...

What do you think?

 

[bekalc]

First of all, Yuna didn't get higher P/E than Mao Asada (or maybe you meant that Mao get higher P/E, I don't understand what you tried to say), they both got the same punctuation for P/E - 7.95.
Now this may be strange, but for what I understand this is something like "commitment to performance", rather than quality of the performance.

But once again that's ridiculous. Somewhere in there, the actual quality of the performance needs to be taken into account. Otherwise skaters will be judged by reputation only and it will be difficult to bet a well repped skater. I remember looking at the marks and Yu-na did get slightly higher P/E marks. And that's just ridiculous. Seniorita was there, and I'm sure she will tell you. Mao out skated Yu-na, Mao out skated Yu-na by a lot...

I'm not saying that choregraphy/transitions shouldn't be important. And I'm not saying skating skills shouldn't be important. But somewhere in the PCS if the system is going to be fair, there has to be something that takes into account the actual performance. So that a top skater isn't guaranteed an 8 point PCS cushion or higher even when they are skating sloppy and mopping up the floor. And then you have another lesser known skater who skates lights out and loses because the PCS cushion made it nearly impossible for them to even have shot.

That's what I'm saying. You don't have to do something draconian as to take Rippon from his top coaches. But you can make the system a bit more fair by rewarding things like a performance that went clean. Part of the problem with the system too is that encourages skaters to pack in the difficulty regardless of how well they can execute said program.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I had thought that, too, but I went back to watch the program, and it has some lovely features. There are arm movements and irregular turns that give this program such texture and originality. I think I've avoided watching this because it was a "bad" year for Michelle--she lost her world championship to Tara and had a few falls and bobbles. But in this competition she did her falling in the short program (ending up in fourth place there) and pulled herself up with this long program. It's a flowing program with great subtlety, and you can see Michelle's increased maturity. She moves with the command and completeness of a great dancer, and as if her motions were creating the music. For anyone who likes to see what skating is capable of, it's definitely worth another look.

She definitely moves very well but ultimately I don't think the arm movements and such really add up to much in that program. The choreography doesn't create any kind of specific feeling. It's nice by itself but ultimately doesn't interpret the music brilliantly. The music needed choreography that was more hard-edged, IMO.

 

[usethis]

I think choreography, interpretation, and transitions are redundant to an extent. Hard to evaluate one without the other.

 

[vicivici]

Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.

 

[miki88]

Mao outskated Yuna in FS ??? If you can see both programs again, especially on Tv, you can see How easily Yuna flowed with soft body movements, and how struggling Mao was. I thought "Mao was tired too.."
if yuna did not make mistakes in jumps, she would got more scores in P/E.

Yuna was just subpar of her own standard. and Because of The Performance "Level" gap between Yuna and others, It's like Goes at TES,Yuna is hardly to be beaten to others in P/E.
Just Substitute the player of that fs program Yuna to others, and if they got same pcs, you may think they are underscored. Double standards is inevitable ^^;;

IMO, Choreography/Transitions always affects P/E too, because little changes and moves in between each Component can't have more points than many.

Hmm.. :think: I have seen both programs several of times, but I still did not see how she skated better than Mao in the LP. According to your logic, then I guess Michelle should never have been beaten throughout her career no matter if she makes mistakes or not, since her level was so above the others (maybe she should have competed under this system).

 

[Tonichelle]

Then he tried to be little Kurt Browning for a while, until Kurt gave up on him.

actually Kurt became too busy and couldn't give the attention Browning felt Joubert deserved, so he said he would do one of his programs, but not both. Joubert didn't even have the courtesy to call and cancel when he decided to go to someone else for BOTH programs. Browning bent over backwards to make sure he had time to choreograph a short program for Brian and found out through the grapevine that Brian went in a different direction.