Ladies vs. Men and the CoP

[janetfan]

Uh, excuse me? YuNa incorporated a 3Loop into her Miss Saigon program.

Please let me know which program of Irina's had a 3axel.

She didn't need it

And Yuna is no longer doing a 3 Loop in competitons for how long - it's going on two years now. If she could do it consistently it would still be in her programs.

 

[prettykeys]

She didn't need it

And Yuna is no longer doing a 3 Loop in competitons for how long - it's going on two years now. If she could do it consistently it would still be in her programs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW5dBWUyNf0
4:48

More research so I can counter-act more "facts" you continue to pluck out of thin air. The first clip is her doing it wearing her Scheherazade outfit.

Please, tell us more with your telepathic insight into Orser's mind!

 

[janetfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW5dBWUyNf0
4:48

More research so I can counter-act more "facts" you continue to pluck out of thin air. The first clip is her doing it wearing her Scheherazade outfit.

Please, tell us more with your telepathic insight into Orser's mind!

Wait, have to watch Sunday Night Football _ Eagles vs Dallas Cowgirls - must see the 4th quarter. :yes:

I will dig up Irina's 3A clip during a commercial and look carefully at Yuna's wardrobe for verification

And will also check Bond and Gershwin for the 3L.

When I spoke with Orser last night I asked him about Yuna's 3Loop and he said it is out in an Olympic year. Let me know if you want his phone number in case you want to try and change his mind. You are very persuasive and I am sure he will listen .... just kidding - thanks for comments and I gladly concede anything to you about Yuna's 3L. Maybe we will see it again later this season. :yes:
Cheers and Go EAGLES

 

[prettykeys]

Uh, why would I want to persuade Orser to make YuNa do a jump she does not like, nor need?

But hey, this would only be about the second time you have made factually incorrect statements in order to support your pre-determined views. :thumbsup:

Before replying to yet another CoP-related issue, maybe you might want to address Kwanford Wife in your other CoP-is-Ruining-Our-Skaters (Mao) thread.

 

[Mathman]

The more I think about it...I think you (Prettykeys) are right about body type for spinning in the air (jumps) compared to spinning on the ground (spins). You can't spin a pencil on its tip. The reason is that the long, thin shape makes it impossible to keep the center of mass over the tip., It will immediately precess drastically and topple over.

But something short and round about the middle will spin forever, neglecting friction and air resistance. So I think the speed of a spin has more to do with centering than anything else.

But take away gravity and a long thin pencil will spin in the air as fast as you like, whereas it will take more initial oomph to get a round ball spinning.

(Something like that. )

Edited to add Come to think about it, Yu-na Kim has a rather boyish body type. Maybe that's why her jumps are better than her spins.

PS. Then again, there is Lambiel...

 

[gkelly]

Edited to add Come to think about it, Yu-na Kim has a rather boyish body type. Maybe that's why her jumps are better than her spins.

PS. Then again, there is Lambiel...

Well, technique plays a part as well.

 

[janetfan]

Uh, why would I want to persuade Orser to make YuNa do a jump she does not like, nor need?

But hey, this would only be about the second time you have made factually incorrect statements in order to support your pre-determined views. :thumbsup:

Before replying to yet another CoP-related issue, maybe you might want to address Kwanford Wife in your other CoP-is-Ruining-Our-Skaters (Mao) thread.

Since you admit Yuna has trouble with the 3 Loop that is good enough for me.

My second time guilty of negligent fact checking ??? according to you ??? check your math, you are being way too conservative

As to Kwanfordwife, I liked her post, and considered disagreeing ......
but since she cited Uncle Dick as her source for Mao's troubles there is no possible way I could disagree with her.

And it appears that mathman was right and that ladies today are having trouble with CoP requirements. Actually, you are right that it was wrong of me to single out Mao because all of the ladies with the exception of Yuna are struggling mightily so far this season.

So my topic header would have been more accurate if it said:

Is Cop ruining women's figure skating?

Since a little visit back to the 90' seemed to show skaters like Irina, Michelle, Chen-Lu, Yuka Sato, Kristi Yamaguchi and Midori Ito were all more consistent and better technical jumpers than today's girls (with exception of Yuna) the point seems to have some basis for discussion.

But it is very possible that later this season there will be a turnaround. I hope we see some exciting skating as we get closer to Vancouver.....:yes:

 

[prettykeys]

Since you admit Yuna has trouble with the 3 Loop that is good enough for me.

Hmm, I didn't exactly say that because I don't know why YuNa doesn't like the 3Loop, and I don't know if it's so inconsistent that they had to pull it out.

However, someone mentioned that YuNa's strengths as a jumper are when she uses her toepicks. And it's true--those jumps of hers have the most height and speed. Her 3Loop, even when done nicely, looks rather "dinky" in comparison. I do not know if that means she has trouble with it, per se, or it makes her nervous/less confident with it even if other lady skaters would be happy with 3loops like hers. According to you, Orser said the 3loop is "out for the Olympic season"--that could be interpreted as she doesn't have it right now, or she doesn't want to work on it right now (because it's inconsistent?), or they both don't think it's ideal to have a jump she isn't fully confident about during the already nervous-wreck that is the usual Olympic experience (personal mental discomfort).

However, I do believe in the future the CoP should (making it harder for everyone yet again ) have a rule that says you cannot have triple-jump repeats in a routine unless you have incorporated 6 different ones (for the women).

 

[janetfan]

Hmm, I didn't exactly say that because I don't know why YuNa doesn't like the 3Loop, and I don't know if it's so inconsistent that they had to pull it out.

However, someone mentioned that YuNa's strengths as a jumper are when she uses her toepicks. And it's true--those jumps of hers have the most height and speed. Her 3Loop, even when done nicely, looks rather "dinky" in comparison. I do not know if that means she has trouble with it, per se, or it makes her nervous/less confident with it even if other lady skaters would be happy with 3loops like hers. According to you, Orser said the 3loop is "out for the Olympic season"--that could be interpreted as she doesn't have it right now, or she doesn't want to work on it right now (because it's inconsistent?), or they both don't think it's ideal to have a jump she isn't fully confident about during the already nervous-wreck that is the usual Olympic experience (personal mental discomfort).

However, I do believe in the future the CoP should (making it harder for everyone yet again ) have a rule that says you cannot have triple-jump repeats in a routine unless you have incorporated 6 different ones (for the women).

I agree with your earlier point - Yuna does not need the 3Loop. I would bet if she really needed it then she would be able to do it.

And sure, I think you are right looking to the future and the continuing developement of skaters. It might take a few more years but sure it will happen.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Ah, okay. Maybe the top is a better example of female advantage.

I tend to think the top is a better example of male advantage.

Could just be me...

 

[prettykeys]

Edited to add Come to think about it, Yu-na Kim has a rather boyish body type. Maybe that's why her jumps are better than her spins.

PS. Then again, there is Lambiel...

LOL Well, I do think that YuNa's is feminine, but it's not "voluptuously feminine". It may also help to explain why Mao was such a fantastic jumper as a youngster.

 

[janetfan]

I tend to think the top is a better example of male advantage.

Could just be me...

Did you mean top or bop

 

[Blades of Passion]

Thinly veiled sexual references are fun.

 

[prettykeys]

:sheesh:

 

[steyn]

The more I think about it...I think you (Prettykeys) are right about body type for spinning in the air (jumps) compared to spinning on the ground (spins). You can't spin a pencil on its tip. The reason is that the long, thin shape makes it impossible to keep the center of mass over the tip., It will immediately precess drastically and topple over.

This is a well-known "spinning top" problem in Newtonian mechanics and what you think is right. You need to have some minimum amount of angular momentum for stability. Since the moment of inertia is small for the thin shape, it must rotate much faster to maintain the spin.

This may be a bit technical but, among many disadvantages that females have in spins and jumps, I think one intersting point is that their bodies are less symmetric. Compare the front side and the rear side. The upper body is asymmetric because of the breast while the lower body is also asymmetric because of the hip. The problem here is then the so-called principal axis of rotation does not coincide with the naive central line connecting the crown of the head and the groin. It leans forward a little bit.

According to mechanics, rotation can occur most efficiently if the skater's rotation axis is the same as the principal axis of the body. Otherwise there would be precession or you have to act extra force to control it, which is the case of female skaters. In other words, females cannot use their whole energy more efficiently to do spins than males skaters.


Back to the original topic, I think the reason that ladies' performance is not very good in CoP is simply because CoP applies the same standard to men and ladies while ladies' physical strength is inferior to men's as we know. For example triple jumps are kind of extreme limits which human can do. Only a few percent of people have ability to do it flawlessly. (I imagine the far end of the gaussian distribution.) Among them it is clear that there are much more men than ladies. So unless we make two different CoPs, one for men and the other for ladies, the basic tendency will not change much in the future, I guess.

 

[snowflake]

This may be a bit technical but, among many disadvantages that females have in spins and jumps, I think one intersting point is that their bodies are less symmetric. Compare the front side and the rear side. The upper body is asymmetric because of the breast while the lower body is also asymmetric because of the hip. The problem here is then the so-called principal axis of rotation does not coincide with the naive central line connecting the crown of the head and the groin. It leans forward a little bit.

Seriously, I really understand the difficulties for lady skaters when their bodies are changing. But coaches/parents/skaters must be aware of this. Many in this board points out the importance for young girls to learn the right jump techique from the beginning. If they did, would it then be so hard to adjust it to their new body types?

Thanks for the post :thumbsup:

 

[gkelly]

Many in this board points out the importance for young girls to learn the right jump techique from the beginning. If they did, would it then be so hard to adjust it to their new body types?

Depends how drastically their bodies change. And also what proportion of fast-twitch muscle fiber they have.

Boys can lose jumps when their bodies change too. The 17-year-old who's suddenly 6'3" and 200 lbs is probably not going to have a future as an elite skater.

Most skaters don't have futures as elite skaters. Most bodies are not equipped to perform triple jumps, regardless of technique.

The problem is that when you look at preteen skaters with good double jumps, it's not always possible to predict which ones will develop the ability to do triples as they improve their technique and which ones' jumps have already maxed out or will get worse just because of body changes.

 

[snowflake]

Most skaters don't have futures as elite skaters. Most bodies are not equipped to perform triple jumps, regardless of technique.

The problem is that when you look at preteen skaters with good double jumps, it's not always possible to predict which ones will develop the ability to do triples as they improve their technique and which ones' jumps have already maxed out or will get worse just because of body changes.

Sounds a bit sad to me if it is not possible to fight nature with good technique and hard training. But I suppose it is a lucky game to end up with the sport you love and are also best equipped for.

Conclusion: It's wrong to put overly high expectations on young skaters, boys and girls. As we didn't know that :frown2:

 

[janetfan]

Depends how drastically their bodies change. And also what proportion of fast-twitch muscle fiber they have.

Boys can lose jumps when their bodies change too. The 17-year-old who's suddenly 6'3" and 200 lbs is probably not going to have a future as an elite skater.

Most skaters don't have futures as elite skaters. Most bodies are not equipped to perform triple jumps, regardless of technique.

The problem is that when you look at preteen skaters with good double jumps, it's not always possible to predict which ones will develop the ability to do triples as they improve their technique and which ones' jumps have already maxed out or will get worse just because of body changes.

Very interesting gkelley. How would you relate your thoughts here to some of the troubles we are seeing with the Ladies this season. Is it possible that an entire generation of Ladies suddenly grew into the wrong body type?

I don't mean that as either silly or sarcastic - but was wondering why so much sloppy skating this season?

Or am I expecting too much - and it just isn't going to be possible for too many ladies under the current scoring system to pull off such busy programs??

 

[just wondering]

Sounds a bit sad to me if it is not possible to fight nature with good technique and hard training. But I suppose it is a lucky game to end up with the sport you love and are also best equipped for.

Conclusion: It's wrong to put overly high expectations on young skaters, boys and girls. As we didn't know that :frown2:

And there in lies the trickiness of it all, particularly for women.

If a skater exhibits strong potential early and does not train as if she intends to do all the triples and skate at an elite level, she would likely get too "old" (in the skating world) to capture those skills at a later date. In other words, if she waits until she knows she has the perfect body make up (size, shape, and muscle composition) for success, the window might be/would likely be closed for mastering the wide array of necessary skills for winning high level competitions.

What a gamble to give so much time for something nature might preclude. Though, of course, the downside is not so great if the skater loves the work and competition along the way.

Kind of crass, but I knew a coach who claimed you had to start teaching triples before you could see breasts or it would be too late to learn them later. I have no idea of the validity of this concept, but he claimed it was an adage from "the old country." JW