Loop, Salchow, Euler | Golden Skate

Loop, Salchow, Euler

HumbleFan

Rinkside
I think I can make sense of the other jumps, but these three still puzzle me. Let's assume I'm a left-handed skater (rotate counter-clockwise). I execute Salchow with my right foot on the back, without the toepick, jumping off from my left foot and generating the spin from my right leg. Is this right? And I execute loop by skating with the left foot on the back, again without the toepick. Is this right too?

Ic3Rabbit

Former Elite, now Pro. ⛸️
Record Breaker
I think I can make sense of the other jumps, but these three still puzzle me. Let's assume I'm a left-handed skater (rotate counter-clockwise). I execute Salchow with my right foot on the back, without the toepick, jumping off from my left foot and generating the spin from my right leg. Is this right? And I execute loop by skating with the left foot on the back, again without the toepick. Is this right too?
If you're a true lefty, then you would rotate clockwise in jumps and spins.

Final Flight
I think I can make sense of the other jumps, but these three still puzzle me. Let's assume I'm a left-handed skater (rotate counter-clockwise). I execute Salchow with my right foot on the back, without the toepick, jumping off from my left foot and generating the spin from my right leg. Is this right? And I execute loop by skating with the left foot on the back, again without the toepick. Is this right too?
This is very confusing, I'll try to simplify it.

Counter-clockwise (Standard direction) - standard landing is right back outside edge, unless otherwise stated.

Salchow: Take off left back inside edge, right leg passing through.

Loop: Take off right back outside edge, left foot going to "h" position during takeoff mechanism.

Euler: Like loop, but landing on other foot.

Clockwise ("lefty") - standard landing is left back outside edge, unless otherwise stated.

Salchow: Take off right back inside edge, left leg passing through.

Loop: Take off left back outside edge, right foot going to "h" position during takeoff mechanism.

Euler: Like loop, but landing on other foot.

HumbleFan

Rinkside
If you're a true lefty, then you would rotate clockwise in jumps and spins.
That's right. I meant to say that I rotate "to the left, i.e. counter-clockwise".
This is very confusing, I'll try to simplify it.

Counter-clockwise (Standard direction) - standard landing is right back outside edge, unless otherwise stated.

Salchow: Take off left back inside edge, right leg passing through.

Loop: Take off right back outside edge, left foot going to "h" position during takeoff mechanism.

Euler: Like loop, but landing on other foot.
So you approach both Salchow and loop with the right leg on the back? The difference is that in loop, left leg is in the h position during the jump, whereas in Salchow, it's the right leg?

Elija

On the Ice
That's right. I meant to say that I rotate "to the left, i.e. counter-clockwise".

So you approach both Salchow and loop with the right leg on the back? The difference is that in loop, left leg is in the h position during the jump, whereas in Salchow, it's the right leg?
Not quite. The main difference is the takeoff foot and edge. You can approach the jump in different ways/with different turns, and with a salchow the left leg will eventually go into an h position in front (it starts off with the right leg coming through, but is a jump where you must switch your weight from one side to the other in the air. Loop does not have a weight switch in the air, you need to stay over your right side).

As stated above, the difference is the takeoff. Loop takes off a right backward outside edge, salchow takes off a left backward inside edge. Different foot and different edge for takeoff. I would suggest watching some skating videos on YouTube in slow motion if you are still confused.

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Not quite. The main difference is the takeoff foot and edge. You can approach the jump in different ways/with different turns, and with a salchow the left leg will eventually go into an h position in front (it starts off with the right leg coming through, but is a jump where you must switch your weight from one side to the other in the air. Loop does not have a weight switch in the air, you need to stay over your right side).

As stated above, the difference is the takeoff. Loop takes off a right backward outside edge, salchow takes off a left backward inside edge. Different foot and different edge for takeoff. I would suggest watching some skating videos on YouTube in slow motion if you are still confused.
I'll do that, but just one question more: The Euler. Is it so that you take off from the right backward outside edge but land on the left foot? And that's why it's so handy for jump combinations? When you land, you're skating backwards with your right toepick free and thus it's easy to attempt a flip or Lutz?

jorge2912

On the Ice
Clarify me something Euler is also known as waltz jump?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Clarify me something Euler is also known as waltz jump?
No. Waltz jump is the same as an axel but only one half revolution.

Diana Delafield

Frequent flyer
Medalist
Clarify me something Euler is also known as waltz jump?
No, the waltz jump takes off from a forward outside edge, turns only half a revolution, and lands backwards on the other foot. I suppose you could say it's one-third of an Axel. The Euler takes off from a back outside edge like a loop jump.

Elija

On the Ice
I'll do that, but just one question more: The Euler. Is it so that you take off from the right backward outside edge but land on the left foot? And that's why it's so handy for jump combinations? When you land, you're skating backwards with your right toepick free and thus it's easy to attempt a flip or Lutz?
Yes. It should be a left backward inside edge that you land on though, so you can do either a flip or a salchow from it in combination, but not a lutz. If you were to do a lutz, you would have to change edge, which you shouldn’t do in a combination. Some people also like to do a Euler in isolation before a jump rather than between jumps just to get a rhythm. Like when learning a double or triple sal the Euler can help with timing before trying the salchow.

jorge2912

On the Ice
No. Waltz jump is the same as an axel but only one half revolution.

. I suppose you could say it's one-third of an Axel. The Euler takes off from a back outside edge like a loop jump.
Thanks you for clarify me, I forgotten and had a mix of both jumps .

Diana your explanation brought memories of my judging teacher many years ago.

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Yes. It should be a left backward inside edge that you land on though, so you can do either a flip or a salchow from it in combination, but not a lutz. If you were to do a lutz, you would have to change edge, which you shouldn’t do in a combination. Some people also like to do a Euler in isolation before a jump rather than between jumps just to get a rhythm. Like when learning a double or triple sal the Euler can help with timing before trying the salchow.
From this, it sounds that you do the sal after the Euler so that the right foot never touches the ice again, you just swing it through.

Btw. one thing which surprises me is that figure skating is so much about the edges. As a layman with an elephant's motoric you'd think that it would be enough to define the jumps through legs and toepicks (used or not), but evidently I'm wrong. Perhaps there's a historic reason why it's this way, or maybe the reason is motoric, something related to jumping itself. As a thought experiment: Could you do a 'Salchow' jump the way I described earlier: jumping from the left edge in front and bending the right leg in an h position? If you could, can you imagine any reason why it's not a listed jump?

Elija

On the Ice
From this, it sounds that you do the sal after the Euler so that the right foot never touches the ice again, you just swing it through.

Btw. one thing which surprises me is that figure skating is so much about the edges. As a layman with an elephant's motoric you'd think that it would be enough to define the jumps through legs and toepicks (used or not), but evidently I'm wrong. Perhaps there's a historic reason why it's this way, or maybe the reason is motoric, something related to jumping itself. As a thought experiment: Could you do a 'Salchow' jump the way I described earlier: jumping from the left edge in front and bending the right leg in an h position? If you could, can you imagine any reason why it's not a listed jump?
Figure skating is 100% about edges - hence the name ‘figure’ skating lol. It began by making figures on the ice using your edges. I would suggest doing some reading about this since you seem to be interested in learning about the sport.

Not entirely sure what you mean jumping from the ‘left edge’ - do you mean left foot? I am assuming that you don’t skate given the questions you’re asking, but blades have an inside and outside edge. Turns, spins, jumps and moves in the field all use different edges, you don’t just jump straight up off a flat foot. I guess you technically could try this, but it would be much more difficult to get any height without using an edge. It would still be a salchow, just a poorly executed one.

gkelly

Record Breaker
^This.

Figure skating is all about edges. If I had to define what the sport is about, at a fundamental level, I would say: Using the body to direct the paths of the blades, including all the different ways of transitioning from one edge to another.

Most of those ways of transitioning from one edge to another happen on the ice: stroking from one foot to another, edge changes, and all the different kinds of turns.

Jumps are also about transitioning from one edge to another, only in this case the transition happens in the air.

The jumps are named first and foremost according to the takeoff edge, and then by whether or not they also use a toepick, and whether or not they rotate in the same (most) or opposite (only lutz for your purposes) direction of the takeoff edge.

The very definition of a salchow jump is that it takes off from a back inside edge and rotates in the same direction as the takeoff edge.

If you jump off a back inside edge and rotate at least once in the same direction as the takeoff curve, you're doing a salchow. If you take off from any other edge, you're doing something else. If you take off from back inside but use your toepick or rotate in the opposite direction of the curve, you're doing something else.

If you want to learn to recognize the difference between jumps, first you need to learn to recognize the various edges.
Watching what the body does can be a shortcut for new viewers, but it won't always tell you what you need to know. If you want to understand skating and understand what the skaters are doing, you need to understand edges.

You may find it easier to learn to recognize them by watching instructional videos for single jumps to help focus on the edges that define the jumps.

If you want to learn to do these various jumps yourself, you absolutely need to learn to skate on all the different edges and to do some basic turns before you should attempt any single jumps. Even to learn waltz jumps you need to be comfortable controlling your forward outside and back outside edges.

Skating is all about edges. Rotational jumps are all about controlling the curves of the takeoff and landing edges. Do not attempt to jump and rotate before you have a good basic control of edges.

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Diana Delafield

Frequent flyer
Medalist
From this, it sounds that you do the sal after the Euler so that the right foot never touches the ice again, you just swing it through.

Btw. one thing which surprises me is that figure skating is so much about the edges. As a layman with an elephant's motoric you'd think that it would be enough to define the jumps through legs and toepicks (used or not), but evidently I'm wrong. Perhaps there's a historic reason why it's this way, or maybe the reason is motoric, something related to jumping itself. As a thought experiment: Could you do a 'Salchow' jump the way I described earlier: jumping from the left edge in front and bending the right leg in an h position? If you could, can you imagine any reason why it's not a listed jump?
Your blade, when looked at from the heel end, has two edges with a groove down the middle between them. The blade, when looked at from the side, is slightly curved like the rocker on a rocking chair. Skating flat-footed on both edges at once is called skating "on a flat" and you can only go in a straight line. (You can spin on a flat, but you're asking about jumps here.) To make a curve, which is what skating is pretty much all about, you have to be on one edge or the other. If you try to jump off a flat at the start of the rotation, you'll probably skid. If you land on a flat in a straight line, you'll probably fall.

mskater93

Record Breaker
Clarify me something Euler is also known as waltz jump?
No, it's known in the US as a 1/2 loop (although it rotates 1X around)

NanaPat

Record Breaker
No, it's known in the US as a 1/2 loop (although it rotates 1X around)
The ISU used to call it a half loop as well, but had trouble showing the 1/2! I prefer the euler terminology, because it really is its own thing.

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Not entirely sure what you mean jumping from the ‘left edge’ - do you mean left foot? I am assuming that you don’t skate given the questions you’re asking, but blades have an inside and outside edge. Turns, spins, jumps and moves in the field all use different edges, you don’t just jump straight up off a flat foot. I guess you technically could try this, but it would be much more difficult to get any height without using an edge. It would still be a salchow, just a poorly executed one.
Sorry, made a typo again... I meant from the left foot. So, I'm asking, would it be technically possible to jump off the same way you do in Salchow but to keep the right leg in the h position and land on the right leg (thus opening the 'h'). Does it even matter how you keep the legs in the air, or is it only the take-off and landing which count?

HumbleFan

Rinkside
The very definition of a salchow jump is that it takes off from a back inside edge and rotates in the same direction as the takeoff edge.

If you jump off a back inside edge and rotate at least once in the same direction as the takeoff curve, you're doing a salchow. If you take off from any other edge, you're doing something else. If you take off from back inside but use your toepick or rotate in the opposite direction of the curve, you're doing something else.
This is a bad definition because you could jump from the back inside edge from the front foot or from the back foot and the front foot could be the left foot or the right foot, and thus, there are four dimensions of freedom left! (I think I know how people do a Salchow and you probably know how to do it yourself, but it's the verbal definitions which puzzle me.)

That being said, there are eight edges: two legs x front/back x inside/outside. So you'd imagine that there are 16 ways to jump (8 edges times two body positions). If you allow for different landing edges, the number of potential combinations becomes really enormous. Probably some or most of them would end in miserable falls, but is there some unexploited 'dimension' left? Could you invent a new figure skating jump?
If you want to learn to do these various jumps yourself, you absolutely need to learn to skate on all the different edges and to do some basic turns before you should attempt any single jumps. Even to learn waltz jumps you need to be comfortable controlling your forward outside and back outside edges.

Skating is all about edges. Rotational jumps are all about controlling the curves of the takeoff and landing edges. Do not attempt to jump and rotate before you have a good basic control of edges.
Thanks for the warning, I appreciate it.

Elija

On the Ice
Sorry, made a typo again... I meant from the left foot. So, I'm asking, would it be technically possible to jump off the same way you do in Salchow but to keep the right leg in the h position and land on the right leg (thus opening the 'h'). Does it even matter how you keep the legs in the air, or is it only the take-off and landing which count?
I don’t understand sorry. If you kept your right leg in a h position upon landing and didn’t stretch your right toe down, you’d fall on your face… I think you are overthinking the h position, which is used in all jumps, it’s just how you get to it on take off and whether or not there is a weight transfer that is different.

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