Loop, Salchow, Euler | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Loop, Salchow, Euler

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The jumps are defined/named by the takeoff edge, whether or not there is a toepick assist, and whether the direction of rotation in the air is the same or opposite to the direction of the takeoff edge.

All standard jumps land on a back outside edge on the foot that curves in the same direction as the in-air rotation.

The air position has nothing to do with the definition of the jump.

It is possible to do the same jump with different air positions. If you do a jump as defined by the takeoff but use an unusual air position, you are doing a variation of the standard jump, not a completely different jump.

If you do the same jump with a non-standard landing, you are doing a variation of the same jump, not a completely different jump.

Some of these variations have their own names (e.g., Euler which is only ever done as a single jump), but usually they are named according to the standard jump with that takeoff, and then some additional words to describe what's different about them (e.g., "one-foot double salchow; delayed axel; split-flip). Most of these variations are never or very very rarely performed with multiple revolutions. If a variation is very very rare, a skater who does perform it would get attention for being creative and likely for doing something extra difficult, but the name of the jump would be the same as the standard version from that takeoff -- with extra words explaining the variation.

For the last 50 years or so it has been accepted that the best way to rotate multirevolution jumps is to get into the "backspin in the air" position. All coaches teach that basic position now, although they may have some variations. If you look at some early examples of jumps by skaters who pioneered the triples before that position had become standard, you may see some different air positions (e.g., Dick Button's 3Lo, Donald Jackson's 3Lz), and various doubles in the 1970s and earlier by lower level skaters who would not have been on TV and not been able to learn triples.

The main differences in how one gets into that position are between jumps for which the last foot to leave the ice is the landing foot (BO edge of the landing foot for the loop; pick of the landing foot for flip and lutz) or whether the foot that leaves the ice last is the non-landing foot (from the FO edge for the axel, BI edge for the salchow, or toepick of the non-landing foot for the toe loop). In the latter cases there needs to be a weight shift in the air and you can usually see the free leg swinging through at/right after the takeoff before that shift into the rotational position.

But if a skater takes off from a standard takeoff without a visible leg swing or with a nonstandard air position before or instead of getting into that backspin in the air position, or without a visible H position before pulling into the rotational position, that does not mean they're doing a different jump. They would just be using an unusual technique, which is generally not a good idea if they're doing triples or quads.

It is possible to jump off some different edges, at least for single jumps -- you may have heard of jumps such as walley, toeless lutz, inside axel -- but these are very difficult or impossible to do with multiple revolutions and so became less common as doubles, triples, and later quads
became more important. The ISU did not include these takeoffs in the IJS scale of values. They have already been invented but they're only done as transitional moves (single walleys are not that rare) or not really worth doing at all in the current scoring. They are also identified by their takeoffs, presence or absence of toe pick at takeoff, and rotation the same or opposite to the curve of the takeoff edge.

If you're trying to learn about how to identify the multirevolution jumps you see in today's skating, you shouldn't worry about those rare takeoffs that don't lend themselves to multiple revolutions.

And if you're trying to learn to understand the six basic kinds of jumps that are commonly used as triples and quads, you need to start focusing primarily on takeoff edges and worry less about air positions.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Here are some videos you may find useful:


If you're specifically interested in salchow vs. loop, you can find various how-to videos for those specific jumps. But be aware that the exercises for learners might introduce additional concepts that are not necessarily fundamental to understanding the definition of the jumps.

The free leg positions (or other body part positions) are techniques for executing the jumps. They are not part of the definition of the jump. Don't worry about "back foot" or "front foot." Those are not part of the definition. Focus on the edges.

Don't worry about the Euler until after you understand the loop. An Euler is just a single loop landed on the other foot. After you understand the loop jump takeoff, then you can understand variations, including this named variation of the single loop.
 

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
I don’t understand sorry. If you kept your right leg in a h position upon landing and didn’t stretch your right toe down, you’d fall on your face… I think you are overthinking the h position, which is used in all jumps, it’s just how you get to it on take off and whether or not there is a weight transfer that is different.
From what gkelly said, it's obvious that you're right.
 

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
This post really helps me to get it. Great stuff:
The jumps are defined/named by the takeoff edge, whether or not there is a toepick assist, and whether the direction of rotation in the air is the same or opposite to the direction of the takeoff edge.

All standard jumps land on a back outside edge on the foot that curves in the same direction as the in-air rotation.

The air position has nothing to do with the definition of the jump.

It is possible to do the same jump with different air positions. If you do a jump as defined by the takeoff but use an unusual air position, you are doing a variation of the standard jump, not a completely different jump.

If you do the same jump with a non-standard landing, you are doing a variation of the same jump, not a completely different jump.

Some of these variations have their own names (e.g., Euler which is only ever done as a single jump), but usually they are named according to the standard jump with that takeoff, and then some additional words to describe what's different about them (e.g., "one-foot double salchow; delayed axel; split-flip). Most of these variations are never or very very rarely performed with multiple revolutions. If a variation is very very rare, a skater who does perform it would get attention for being creative and likely for doing something extra difficult, but the name of the jump would be the same as the standard version from that takeoff -- with extra words explaining the variation.

For the last 50 years or so it has been accepted that the best way to rotate multirevolution jumps is to get into the "backspin in the air" position. All coaches teach that basic position now, although they may have some variations. If you look at some early examples of jumps by skaters who pioneered the triples before that position had become standard, you may see some different air positions (e.g., Dick Button's 3Lo, Donald Jackson's 3Lz), and various doubles in the 1970s and earlier by lower level skaters who would not have been on TV and not been able to learn triples.
Backspin in the air - does that mean that the skater jumps leaning backwards? So (s)he is rotating in the almost in a 45 degree position? I've always wondered whether it's a mistake, an elite technique or something else.
The main differences in how one gets into that position are between jumps for which the last foot to leave the ice is the landing foot (BO edge of the landing foot for the loop; pick of the landing foot for flip and lutz) or whether the foot that leaves the ice last is the non-landing foot (from the FO edge for the axel, BI edge for the salchow, or toepick of the non-landing foot for the toe loop). In the latter cases there needs to be a weight shift in the air and you can usually see the free leg swinging through at/right after the takeoff before that shift into the rotational position.
Isn't it so that a counter-rotating skater lands all standard jumps on the right foot, except of Euler which can be used for the combinations? Another question: If I jumped from the BO edge of my left foot, rotated counter-clockwise and landed on my left foot, would you still call it a loop?
But if a skater takes off from a standard takeoff without a visible leg swing or with a nonstandard air position before or instead of getting into that backspin in the air position, or without a visible H position before pulling into the rotational position, that does not mean they're doing a different jump. They would just be using an unusual technique, which is generally not a good idea if they're doing triples or quads.

It is possible to jump off some different edges, at least for single jumps -- you may have heard of jumps such as walley, toeless lutz, inside axel -- but these are very difficult or impossible to do with multiple revolutions and so became less common as doubles, triples, and later quads
became more important. The ISU did not include these takeoffs in the IJS scale of values. They have already been invented but they're only done as transitional moves (single walleys are not that rare) or not really worth doing at all in the current scoring. They are also identified by their takeoffs, presence or absence of toe pick at takeoff, and rotation the same or opposite to the curve of the takeoff edge.
Ok, I get it. So it's possible to jump in different ways but the skaters have identified the most efficient ways. I wonder whether this is an eternal truth, or can some paradigm shift occur, like V style in the ski jump...
 

silverlily1

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 25, 2023
Backspin in the air - does that mean that the skater jumps leaning backwards? So (s)he is rotating in the almost in a 45 degree position? I've always wondered whether it's a mistake, an elite technique or something else.

Isn't it so that a counter-rotating skater lands all standard jumps on the right foot, except of Euler which can be used for the combinations? Another question: If I jumped from the BO edge of my left foot, rotated counter-clockwise and landed on my left foot, would you still call it a loop?
I think it would be helpful for you to look up the terms being shared with you, as a google search will quickly explain what, for example, a backspin is, and clear up the confusion of your resulting comment.

A loop does not take off a left back outside edge and rotate counter-clockwise, so no, landing a move like that on a left foot would not make it a loop. There is no recognized standard jump that takes off that way. The lutz is the closest, but that is a picked jump, not an edge jump.
 

Elija

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Backspin in the air - does that mean that the skater jumps leaning backwards? So (s)he is rotating in the almost in a 45 degree position? I've always wondered whether it's a mistake, an elite technique or something else.
No. You absolutely do not lean back. I can’t even fathom what you mean by rotating in a 45 degree position. As suggested above, I think it would really help you to do some reading and watch some videos (some are linked above). Watch some videos on YouTube of people doing backspins. Learning a backspin is very important for all jumps, nothing to do with an elite technique. You also need to learn some spin positions on both your feet, which means learning back sit, back camel etc. There are lots of educational videos on YouTube that break down how to do different jumps, spins and turns and watching these will hopefully clear up your confusion.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003

forward scratch spin (for comparison -- rotates toward the foot on the ice):

backspin (rotates away from the foot on the ice):

change-foot spin (forward spin, change foot to backspin):

Training exercises for learning double loop using back (scratch) spins:

Similar exercise for learning axel:
 
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HumbleFan

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
A loop does not take off a left back outside edge and rotate counter-clockwise, so no, landing a move like that on a left foot would not make it a loop. There is no recognized standard jump that takes off that way. The lutz is the closest, but that is a picked jump, not an edge jump.
So it's also about the foot, not only about the edge? You could define: 'For a counter-clockwise skater, a loop starts from the right BO edge...' How about the other foot? If I manage to jump from my right BO edge with my right foot in front, is it a loop w/ non-standard takeoff, or not a loop at all?
No. You absolutely do not lean back. I can’t even fathom what you mean by rotating in a 45 degree position. As suggested above, I think it would really help you to do some reading and watch some videos (some are linked above). Watch some videos on YouTube of people doing backspins. Learning a backspin is very important for all jumps, nothing to do with an elite technique. You also need to learn some spin positions on both your feet, which means learning back sit, back camel etc. There are lots of educational videos on YouTube that break down how to do different jumps, spins and turns and watching these will hopefully clear up your confusion.
Ok, sorry for the stupid question. I meant the way some elite skaters do triples and quads... I guess they're just on the brink of falling.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So it's also about the foot, not only about the edge? You could define: 'For a counter-clockwise skater, a loop starts from the right BO edge...'
Yes, that is true.

How about the other foot? If I manage to jump from my right BO edge with my right foot in front, is it a loop w/ non-standard takeoff, or not a loop at all?
If you're jumping from the right BO edge and rotating counterclockwise, you're doing a loop.

The loop jump takes off and lands on the same edge, so for a CCW skater it's RBO to RBO. The reason it's called a "loop" jump is that in theory if you did the exact same motions but didn't leave the ice, your blade would draw a loop on the ice.

(In practice the movements for a loop jump and BO loop on the ice are similar but not completely identical.)


So especially for a loop jump, we can talk about the skating foot (the one that is on the ice for both takeoff and landing) and the free foot.

If you takeoff from an RBO edge with your free foot behind the skating foot at takeoff and leave it behind for the air position, that would be a loop jump with an unusual air position. It's not a position that is conducive to achieving multiple revolutions -- you will see it very occasionally as a transitional move, maybe in a choreo sequence, with only a single revolution. You will not see double-triple-quad jumps in that position.

To reiterate: the position of the free foot on the takeoff or in the air has nothing to do with the name of the jump. It is just a variation. Most air position variations do not work well for multiple revolutions.

The best way to rotate multirevolution jumps is in a tight crossed position with the non-landing foot crossed in front of the ankle of the landing foot. I.e., the "backspin in the air" position discussed in the previous posts.

Ok, sorry for the stupid question. I meant the way some elite skaters do triples and quads... I guess they're just on the brink of falling.
Jumps are not defined by their air positions.

If a skater is at a slight angle (or not-so-slight, e.g., 45 degrees) in the air, that's a not-so-good air position that will make it harder for them to rotate and land successfully. It is not a different kind of jump.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ok, I get it. So it's possible to jump in different ways but the skaters have identified the most efficient ways. I wonder whether this is an eternal truth, or can some paradigm shift occur, like V style in the ski jump...
The paradigm shift already happened 40-50 years ago when coaches realized that they should not allow students to learn double jumps in positions other than with the free foot crossed in front, preferably right by the ankle, because other positions would not allow them to learn triples.
 

HumbleFan

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 6, 2022
Yes, that is true.


If you're jumping from the right BO edge and rotating counterclockwise, you're doing a loop.

The loop jump takes off and lands on the same edge, so for a CCW skater it's RBO to RBO. The reason it's called a "loop" jump is that in theory if you did the exact same motions but didn't leave the ice, your blade would draw a loop on the ice.

(In practice the movements for a loop jump and BO loop on the ice are similar but not completely identical.)


So especially for a loop jump, we can talk about the skating foot (the one that is on the ice for both takeoff and landing) and the free foot.

If you takeoff from an RBO edge with your free foot behind the skating foot at takeoff and leave it behind for the air position, that would be a loop jump with an unusual air position. It's not a position that is conducive to achieving multiple revolutions -- you will see it very occasionally as a transitional move, maybe in a choreo sequence, with only a single revolution. You will not see double-triple-quad jumps in that position.

To reiterate: the position of the free foot on the takeoff or in the air has nothing to do with the name of the jump. It is just a variation. Most air position variations do not work well for multiple revolutions.

The best way to rotate multirevolution jumps is in a tight crossed position with the non-landing foot crossed in front of the ankle of the landing foot. I.e., the "backspin in the air" position discussed in the previous posts.


Jumps are not defined by their air positions.

If a skater is at a slight angle (or not-so-slight, e.g., 45 degrees) in the air, that's a not-so-good air position that will make it harder for them to rotate and land successfully. It is not a different kind of jump.
Thanks for the instructive comments. I think I get it now. Many people who learn dance or let's say fighting sports learn them through front foot - back foot; it's amazing that figure skating is different. It's most about the edges! Another confusing point is that loop has almost nothing to do with toe loop. It took me long to realize this.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Thanks for the instructive comments. I think I get it now. Many people who learn dance or let's say fighting sports learn them through front foot - back foot; it's amazing that figure skating is different. It's most about the edges! Another confusing point is that loop has almost nothing to do with toe loop. It took me long to realize this.
Glad you get it now.

Other sports may focus on front foot and back foot, but figure skating is all about the edges, not the positions of the feet relative to each other.

Loop and toe loop are related in that they both take off from the same edge (and rotate in the same direction). But because of the picking action of the toepick, the mechanics of those two jumps are very different.
 
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