Men free skate

[Luciana]

Ok, Asada didn't compete in both Jr Worlds and Sr Worlds in the same year.
What is a depending champion? you mean.. defending champion??

Yes you are right.
It's my spelling mistake.
Thank you for your pointing out my mistake.

And Rippon didn't also compete in both JW and SW.
That's the reason I mentioned her.
I don't think it's wrong.

 

[ks777]

Yes you are right.
It's my spelling mistake.
Thank you for your pointing out my mistake.

And Rippon didn't also compete in both JW and SW.
That's the reason I mentioned her.
I don't think it's wrong.

There is a big difference between Asada and Rippon. Rippon didn't make the Senior worlds team but Asada was age ineligible for Sr worlds that year so she went to Jr worlds.

 

[SamuraiKike]

I have to agree that The whole thing about "Junior not being real Juniors" is silly and sounds like sour grapes.

Let's see. If not Rippon, then who?? Brezina won the silver at Nebelhorn this season and was in the top 10 at Euros, both "Senior" events. Denis Ten was top 10 also at 4 Continents. Oi, Yang, Song, Balde and Grigoriev : they all competed in their respective Senior National Championships. Nan Song even won but didnt make the 4CC team. Reynolds was in the GP. So if we go strictly by the " Once Senior always senior" logic Ross Miner should have been the champion here which i find a little amusing.

Once again, The criteria for the Junior/Senior division for the ISU (based on age) is different from the critieria used by USFS( based on skill tests). Is it really THAT hard to understand??

BTW, very happy China got 3 spots for next years... but too bad about Russia losing 1 spot. Im still bummed about Bariev and Gachinsking missing out the competition. The top 10 would have surely looked different.

 

[Mathman]

Ross Miner should have been the champion here which I find a little amusing.

What's amusing about that? If he is the best junior skater in the world, then he should win the junior championship.

Is it really THAT hard to understand?

Not hard to understand. Just hard to agree with.

What is the purpose of having a "junior championship" in the first place?

 

[SamuraiKike]

What's amusing about that? If he is the best junior skater in the world, then he should win the junior championship.



Not hard to understand. Just hard to agree with.

What is the purpose of having a "junior championship" in the first place?

He's not, because all the other 9 boys who placed above him are junior skaters too. That's the whole point They are all only teenagers and thats why we have junior worlds. Because let's face it, all these kids under 18-19 are not in the same league as the older skaters despite some of them already competing and gaining experience at GP , Euros, etc.. they are very talented after all, if not they wouldnt be at the World Championships.The only category where I can see some adjusments are needed is in ladiezz cause they usually peak at their teen years.. Maybe lowering the age limit to 16-17...:think::

 

[Medusa]

He's not, because all the other 9 boys who placed above him are junior skaters too. That's the whole point They are all only teenagers and thats why we have junior worlds. Because let's face it, all these kids under 18-19 are not in the same league as the older skaters despite some of them already competing and gaining experience at GP , Euros, etc.. they are very talented after all, if not they wouldnt be at the World Championships.The only category where I can see some adjusments are needed is in ladiezz cause they usually peak at their teen years.. Maybe lowering the age limit to 16-17...:think::

Well, Chan (barely 18) isn't starting at the junior level. The Japanese federation also didn't send Kozuka (who won in 2006) in 2007 or 2008, despite the fact that they could have secured more places with that choice. Kozuka moved officially up to seniors after his World Junior Title, he only placed 6th at Nationals his first senior season (a bit like Rippon) but the Japanese Federation didn't send him to Junior Worlds as a consolation price.

I really think that once they are doing the Senior Grand Prixs - no more juniors. I don't care what they do on the National level, some skaters even start as juniors and as seniors at their Nationals... But having the skater on the Senior level the entire season or even for several seasons (Wagner, Elene, Zhang, Reynolds, Rippon, Leonova) and than back to juniors for one competition for the sake of what? Showing everyone that they didn't really make it as seniors in their first season - so they returned to give the kids a good beating?

And don't get me started on the newly crowned Russian Junior World Champions - I mean no wonder she is completely exhausted and overly nervous: two JGPs, one senior Grand Prix, the Junior Grand Prix Final, Senior Nationals, Europeans, Junior Worlds, Senior Worlds? Whose idea was that?

 

[Fashionista]

I'm exhausted with all these discussions about junior and non-junior skaters. Let's get back to the original mission of world junior championships - it's just a competition which finds out the best skaters under 19/21, that's all. And it doesn't matter what experience these skaters had, as long as they under 19/21 they have a right to compete on junior level. And it's not their fault that they were more talented then their rivals and turned out to be so strong to successfully compete on the senior level at the age of 15.

 

[chuckm]

It would have been amusing if Ross Miner had won the title. This was his first international competition as a Junior; he won the US Junior title after winning Novice silver in 2008.

 

[Mathman]

I'm exhausted with all these discussions about junior and non-junior skaters. Let's get back to the original mission of world junior championships - it's just a competition which finds out the best skaters under 19/21, that's all.

I think that's exactly the problem. The best skaters under 19 are Mao Asada and Yn-na Kim. So what is it precisely that the Junior Championship is supposed to find out?

 

[Buttercup]

I think that's exactly the problem. The best skaters under 19 are Mao Asada and Yn-na Kim. So what is it precisely that the Junior Championship is supposed to find out?

I agree - there should be other criteria besides age. I'd prefer skaters who do senior internationals to stick with senior events. I don't mind skaters who've only done senior nationals at junior Worlds. But once you've made the decision to compete internationally at the senior level, that should be it.

Some of the top skaters in seniors are eligible to be in Sofia. That doesn't mean they should be. Unless I have the ages wrong, then defending world champions Michelle Kwan and Alexei Yagudin were age-eligible for 1999 junior Worlds. Would anyone like to argue that it would have been perfectly ok for them to be there?

I read Ashley Wagner's comments about going to junior Worlds, and I admire her honesty about it. I hope to see her at senior rather than junior worlds next year.

 

[viv]

... Kozuka moved officially up to seniors after his World Junior Title, he only placed 6th at Nationals his first senior season (a bit like Rippon) but the Japanese Federation didn't send him to Junior Worlds as a consolation price.

I really think that once they are doing the Senior Grand Prixs - no more juniors. I don't care what they do on the National level, some skaters even start as juniors and as seniors at their Nationals... But having the skater on the Senior level the entire season or even for several seasons (Wagner, Elene, Zhang, Reynolds, Rippon, Leonova) and than back to juniors for one competition for the sake of what? Showing everyone that they didn't really make it as seniors in their first season - so they returned to give the kids a good beating? ...

I more or less agree with that, but I think one cannot blame Rippon for having taken the chance he had got. The US Federation wanted to give him a good final competition of the season after he skated at Nationals - well, not really a mess, but clearly not what he wanted. So they put him there, and he did it and won, and Orser did a good job in making his 3A more consistent (but not yet consistent, see his SP). One can neither say, though, that Orser "made him" (he didn't win for nothing last year), nor can we make predictions of how consistent or confident he will be in next years Senior competitions and whom he will beat there or not. But as anything here was within the rules, it's o.k. for me that he won. (And I like to see him skating anyway, no matter in which competition. )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
If you know the USFS did this, I would assume you are an official in that Organziation. Yes? then I do not think much of the USFS for playing games.

Rippon did skate the best all season in Juniors but he did not skate well in Seniors. That's fact. It's just a question of whether he is Senior or Junior?

The Senior GPs are the creme de la creme in senior figure skating, and it's time for the ISU to differentiate between Juniors and Seniors. My suggestion would be to lower the age of Juniors to 15.

 

[efreedman]

^^^
If you know the USFS did this, I would assume you are an official in that Organziation. Yes? then I do not think much of the USFS for playing games.

Rippon did skate the best all season in Juniors but he did not skate well in Seniors. That's fact. It's just a question of whether he is Senior or Junior?

The Senior GPs are the creme de la creme in senior figure skating, and it's time for the ISU to differentiate between Juniors and Seniors. My suggestion would be to lower the age of Juniors to 15.

I think that we have to put the comment about not skating well in the Seniors this into context:

• He was abandoned by Morozov and was essentially skating coachless for almost 6 months prior to Nationals
• He attempted to learn and fix his triple axel technique without a coach, thereby injuring himself - possible disc problems
• Rechoreographed his LP for COR without a coach

Given the stress that he was under, it was amazing that he did as well as he did at Nationals.

 

[viv]

^^^
If you know the USFS did this, I would assume you are an official in that Organziation. Yes? then I do not think much of the USFS for playing games.

Rippon did skate the best all season in Juniors but he did not skate well in Seniors. That's fact. It's just a question of whether he is Senior or Junior?

The Senior GPs are the creme de la creme in senior figure skating, and it's time for the ISU to differentiate between Juniors and Seniors. My suggestion would be to lower the age of Juniors to 15.

I don't think Rippon skated this season as a Junior at all, except Junior Worlds. He skated quite well in CoR (Senior GP), not so well in SA, and I also think he is to be regarded as a Senior already. What I wanted to point out is that it is not he to be blamed but the rules, and I agree with you that the age of Juniors should be lower than 19/21. I would rather suggest, though, that the end of Junior status is the date of the 18th birthday, as I think with 16 no boy is competitive with Senior men, and I don't think that two years without a chance to compete internationally makes sense.

 

[Medusa]

What I wanted to point out is that it is not he to be blamed but the rules, and I agree with you that the age of Juniors should be lower than 19/21. I would rather suggest, though, that the end of Junior status is the date of the 18th birthday, as I think with 16 no boy is competitive with Senior men, and I don't think that two years without a chance to compete internationally makes sense.

Why lower the age? Some skaters develop faster, some need their time... There are several skaters who just need more time in the relative obscurity of junior events and they should have that time. I think it would be better to say - once you enter a major senior event, championship or grand prix event, your are a senior.

 

[Fashionista]

I think that's exactly the problem. The best skaters under 19 are Mao Asada and Yn-na Kim. So what is it precisely that the Junior Championship is supposed to find out?

That they are the best junior skaters in the world, that's all. Don't you agree on this statement???

 

[chuckm]

If you lowered the top age of the Juniors to 15, then these would be the competitors at JW:

Denis TEN (4th)
Yuzuru HANYU (12th)
Peter REITMAYER (17th)
Petr COUFAL (20th)
Min-Seok KIM (22nd)
Viktor ROMANENKOV (23rd)
Matthew PRECIOUS (24th)
Bela PAPP (29th)
Engin Ali ARTAN (30th)
Sarkis HAIRAPETYAN (31st)
Dmitri KAGIROV (34th)
Tomi PULKKINEN (36th)
Zsolt KOSZ (37th)

others who'd be eligible:

FRA: Gaylord LAVOISIER
GER: Chris BERNECK
ITA: Saverio GIACOMELLI
POL: Sebastian LOFEC
RUS: Jean BUSH
UKR: Matej SILECKI
USA: David WANG (13th at Nationals). All others 15-and-under are Novices.


Of course, once a 15-year-old skated at JW, he would have to turn Senior, even if he was too small and didn't have the skill set to compete against Senior men.
15-and-under 'men' are few and far between because in many federations, men of that age haven't even moved up to the Junior level yet. So pushing unprepared 15-year-olds into Senior competition is asking for career-ending injury.

I suspect the reason Joesitz wants Juniors to be between 13 and 15 is because that's how old most of his 'favorites' are. :sheesh:

 

[Mathman]

The best skaters under 19 are Mao Asada and Yn-na Kim. So what is it precisely that the Junior Championship is supposed to find out?

That they are the best junior skaters in the world, that's all. Don't you agree on this statement???

I am not sure I understand your comment.

I certainly agree that Asada and Kim are the best lady skaters in the world under 19 years of age.

I do not think that Junior Worlds proved this. In fact, I am sure that it did not, since they did not compete.

I do not regard Asada and Kim as "junior skaters," despite the fact that they satisfy the ISU's definition. If Asada and Kim are "juniors," according to the ISU definition, then who qualifies as a "senior?"

By the same token I do not consider Elena Gedevanishvili, who competed as a senior in the Olympic games three years ago, to be a "junior skater," no matter what her age is. I consider Caroline Zhang, who medaled twice in the senior Grand Prix and made the senior Grand Prix finals two years ago, to be a "senior ladies figure skater," not a junior. Same with Ashley Wagner, who represented the U.S. at the senior world championship last year.

Well, obviously the ISU sees it differently. OK.

 

[Mathman]

If you lowered the top age of the Juniors to 15, then these would be the competitors at JW:

Denis TEN (4th)
Yuzuru HANYU (12th)
Peter REITMAYER (17th)
Petr COUFAL (20th)
Min-Seok KIM (22nd)
Viktor ROMANENKOV (23rd)
Matthew PRECIOUS (24th)
Bela PAPP (29th)
Engin Ali ARTAN (30th)
Sarkis HAIRAPETYAN (31st)
Dmitri KAGIROV (34th)
Tomi PULKKINEN (36th)
Zsolt KOSZ (37th)

Well...I for one would not be outraged. I like Denis Ten and Yuzuru Hanyu. Why shouldn't they win an age-group competition, if they skate the best among their peers?

But I think Joe's main point was that a skater who moves up to the senior level in international competition leaves juniors behind, regardless of age.

 

[samba]

Maybe they should use the same rule as the GP and JGP. Skaters can't compete in both events, they have to choose one. If they feel ready to step up as senior, compete in GP, they can't do JGP, they also should not be allowed to compete in Jr.Worlds. Young skaters that are eligible for Jr.Worlds but have competed in GP, should not allowed to go back to Jr.events.