Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

[museksk8r]

ImaginaryPogue, the moment a 4-fall Abbott beats a skater of Oda's and Rippon's caliber when they skate well will result in him being crucified, I have no doubt. However, I don't see that happening, as the judges clearly don't have an Abbott lovefest like they do with Chan. How low of you to even compare the scenario with Chan to Abbott! :disapp: Patrick gets PCS in the 8s and 9s always, whether he falls 4 times or not, and you're gonna try to rip on Jeremy for receiving 7s when he deserves way better. Seriously, what is wrong with you? :scratch:

 

[chuckm]

Joubert has to win TEB to make it to the GPF. And it won't be easy. Joubert has a history of not performing well at home: he has won TEB/Lalique only once, and that was way back in 2006.

 

[gmyers]

gmyers, for what it's worth, I don't think that Verner's gonna get rid of the quad from his repetoire. Remember, he elected to skip Worlds because he had come to the conclusion that after Skate America, GPF, Nationals, Euros and the Olympics - something was REALLY wrong and he didn't know what. That led to a completely revamped training regime, changing coachs, arenas and countries. I agree with you - winning the way he did doesn't really appeal to me. It was clean and two clean performances for Verner is something to remember, but he won over 4 falls and a COP rule and two falls. I would love to see the Verner of the 2007 Worlds come back, but I think his choice to change everything about how he train means that he's gonna play it safe for a while to see what works, and I think that's the right maneuver. Intriguingly, his two performances (and hopefully the GPF) would go a long way to him reasserting his status as the top European skater this season, and given that this season we wondered if he'd be the top CZECH skater, that's an achievement for sure.

Well I hope all of this happens to Verner but a 100% Verner. It is just after the Olympic champion said "quad next time" over and over and it never happened I just wonder about these people who say "quad next time." The next time tends to not come and a quad is not just something you add as has been said by Stojko when discussing Todd Eldredge back in the 90's. I don't really know anything about his coach. Is the GPF too soon? Will Euros be too important? Will Worlds be too important? for quads.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can someone explain Abbot's interpretation in his short program. It looked like he was trying to be a snake. his hand movements were weird and made the program look uncomfortable. People on this forum have been saying that he is in a different league to all of the other skaters. please explain. I find his movements contrived and without meaning.

That piece was mystifying to me also. I used the word sinuous. Hope he gets in Final so we get another look. The choreography was not your ordinary figure skating performance. I like innovation especially at the Interpretation level. He did fine What was the name of that music?

 

[bekalc]

ImaginaryPogue, the moment a 4-fall Abbott beats a skater of Oda's and Rippon's caliber when they skate well will result in him being crucified, I have no doubt. However, I don't see that happening, as the judges clearly don't have an Abbott lovefest like they do with Chan. How low of you to even compare the scenario with Chan to Abbott! :disapp: Patrick gets PCS in the 8s and 9s always, whether he falls 4 times or not, and you're gonna try to rip on Jeremy for receiving 7s when he deserves way better. Seriously, what is wrong with you? :scratch:

Jeremy doesn't deserve high PCS when he falls all over the place and is generally messy. And I know some people were watching the competition live said that Jeremy was much slower than not only Chan but also Verner in person. Menshov too. Jeremy does have nice choregraphy and transitions though but...

As for Verner and Evan, we are talking about two extremely different skaters. Evan was never consistent on his quad, and he didn't have the greatest technique, given he could win without one its understandable why Evan didn't go for it. I think Tomas' situation isn't the same. And I find the I'll only be happy when Tomas is 100% to be a bit meh. Tomas was skating horrifically last season, and know he's making changes and improving. Baby steps.

 

[museksk8r]

Jeremy doesn't deserve high PCS when he falls all over the place and is generally messy.

I was speaking in general. Jeremy didn't even get a majority of 8s and 9s in NHK even when his only major mistake was popping a 3Axel.

 

[museksk8r]

:disapp:You missed his point entirely. Jeremy received the same PCS for his clean short program and his messy 2 fall free skate. Yet, not a word has been brought up about this. Everyone is complaining that Patrick's PCS are too high for having mistakes in his program. Yet Jeremy's mistakes did not seem to affect his PCS either. Why are people not complaining about that?

Also, public opinion seems to be that it is horrendous that a three fall free program wins silver but it's okay that 2 fall program with under-rotations won bronze?

Chan received an under-rotation too and did an illegal combination, but how convenient of you to overlook those facts.

 

[i love to skate]

Chan received an under-rotation too, but how convenient of you to overlook that fact.

Jeremy had three. Patrick had one...

 

[museksk8r]

I agree with the judges. Jeremy's LP is better designed than his SP. Life is Beautiful fits him so much better than flamenco does, not only in the costuming but also the mood and overall packaging and construction of the program. The LP far better emphasizes Abbott's strengths than his SP does, so it's right to award his LP with better PCS than his SP.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

ImaginaryPogue, the moment a 4-fall Abbott beats a skater of Oda's and Rippon's caliber when they skate well will result in him being crucified, I have no doubt. However, I don't see that happening, as the judges clearly don't have an Abbott lovefest like they do with Chan. How low of you to even compare the scenario with Chan to Abbott! :disapp: Patrick gets PCS in the 8s and 9s always, whether he falls 4 times or not, and you're gonna try to rip on Jeremy for receiving 7s when he deserves way better. Seriously, what is wrong with you? :scratch:

1. People are commenting that it's ridiculous for Chan to score high PCS despite his high number of falls. TRUE or FALSE

2. gkelly and wallylutz have both taken the time to explain repeatedly that falls don't always lower PCS, as structured currently. TRUE or FALSE

3. People don't listen, and make the same comments. TRUE or FALSE

4. However, people are selective in whom they make the comments about. TRUE or FALSE

5. People suggested that Chan's PCS should've been much lower (without much knowledge of where, how or why, of course) at Skate Canada due to his falls. TRUE or FALSE

6. To me, if you believe that visible errors in the manner of falls and step-outs should seriously detract from his PCS, it stands to reason that an Abbott with multiple errors including falls should suffer as compared to a clean Abbott TRUE or FALSE

7. That didn't happen as represented here by a direct comparison of his short and long programs. TRUE or FALSE

8. If you choose to do a direct comparison between his NHK long program (no falls, though I forget the actual content, but it was one or two popped jumps and an UR) and CoR LP, you notice his PCS staying remarkably the same (mid to high 7s). TRUE or FALSE

9. Ergo, it stands to reason that it's not so much a biased loved fest that benefits Chan solely to the exclusion of all others, but is something systemic in the rules. TRUE or FALSE

10. If you're still disappinted/confused and/or think I'm an idiot, don't bother responding, as my sense of logic clearly clashes with your own. Just add me to ignore.

 

[pangtongfan]

Abbott's PCS are always too low to begin with, especialy compared to the most overscored skater of all time- Patrick Chan. So if his PCS with mistakes is the same as with clean, it just means he needs to make mistakes to get fair PCS for him I guess, since for a clean performance they were too low to begin with . Abbott did not fall 4 times, he fell twice, and he only won bronze with a 4th in the LP. Chan fell 4 times and would have won another grand prix without doing an extra combination. Dumb comparision in everyway, hence why nobody looks at Abbott's perfectly reasonably if not slightly harsh scores with the disdain of Chan's typically outrageous scores.

 

[bekalc]

Imaginary, I also have been MEH at some of the Abbott scores I've seen for messy programs. For example, I disagreed with him being so close to Rippon at Senior Worlds.

Tired of multiple falls getting big scores. Lambiel is frankly another one. It was ridiculous that Lambiel was so close to Olympic bronze with the combined technical programs he gave in the short and long. I adore Stephane as a skater, but I've never been so glad to see a skater turn pro.

I completely agree in general that Patrick is hardly the only skater who is allowed to be extremely messy.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

pangtongfan, thanks for your response. Apologies for the error in your name earlier.

bekalc, I'd be interested in a system that promotes risk taking, punishes major errors, acknowledges general overall difficulty, while at the same time promoting the PCS values very much. Too bad I think that's virtually impossible.

 

[pangtongfan]

In the end the final results of this particular competition were probably right, unlike Skate Canada. As outrageously overscored as Chan was he probably deserved 2nd. I dont think Abbott's LP was better, nor his SP all things considered (though he shouldnt have been almost 5 points back in the short). The only ridiculous thing was he was so close to winning. At Skate Canada he should have been 3rd or off the podium though. Here atleast by some miracle his final placing was right. The extra combination was an act of god who saved the skating World from witnessing yet another travesty on this years grand prix IMHO.

The mens field is really weak right now, which also benefits Chan and others doing so well with so many mistakes right now.

The mens field could certainly use Evan Lysacek back around now. Chan would have to skate clean to beat Evan. No more getting away with 4 fall programs and winning, or anything close to that. I actually like Chan's skating more than Evan's so hopefully he would manage to start doing it, but if he didnt, well out of luck, no more winning with falls.

 

[museksk8r]

What's really shocking is Chan's fans aren't even pleased when their skater gets outrageous gifts from the judges so they have to pick on the bronze medalist who placed freakin' 4th in the LP when their sloppy 4 fall hero very nearly won another GP event, only losing to a rule technicality of doing too many combos. UNBELIEVABLE!

 

[bekalc]

pangtongfan, thanks for your response. Apologies for the error in your name earlier.

bekalc, I'd be interested in a system that promotes risk taking, punishes major errors, acknowledges general overall difficulty, while at the same time promoting the PCS values very much. Too bad I think that's virtually impossible.

I don't think such a system is impossible. There's never going to be a perfect system, but I have a hard time thinking that we can't have a better system than we currently have. To me a better way to reward the quad guys would be to allow the quad guys to either get some kind of bonus for a quad, reward quad combinations, and perhaps to allow guys to repeat 2 quads in the long, and 2 triples in the long. All of these things would have been better than handing people 6 points for falling on a quad...

I don't want a system where one fall takes a skater out, but any skater having a 3 fall cushion is ridiculous.

 

[museksk8r]

In the end the final results of this particular competition were probably right, unlike Skate Canada. As outrageously overscored as Chan was he probably deserved 2nd. The only ridiculous thing was he was so close to winning. At Skate Canada he should have been 3rd or off the podium though.

Yes, this is reasonable to me. Chan should have scored about a 219 in Russia, not the 227 he received, to claim silver. Bronze in Canada would have been right too. BUTT, to be so close to being a double champion, NO, I don't agree with that AT ALL! Chan and Abbott should be in the same boat right now in terms of making the GPF with 1 silver and 1 bronze each, but that isn't the case at all, is it. Where's the fairness in that?

 

[pangtongfan]

Tired of multiple falls getting big scores. Lambiel is frankly another one. It was ridiculous that Lambiel was so close to Olympic bronze with the combined technical programs he gave in the short and long. I adore Stephane as a skater, but I've never been so glad to see a skater turn pro.

Yeah Lambiel who messed up on over half his jumps over the two programs still half a point from pushing Takahashi who other than one major error was simply brilliant (iffy and question downgrade and flutz call aside) off the podium. Can you imagine the outcry had the result gone the other way. The current judging system and its rule, not to mention how the judges are scoring based on protocal and PCS irregardless of mistakes and performance, is treading on very thin ice. The public has already been alieanted from the sport to the point it is down to a small fan base that the sport is barely surviving on. The last thing they can afford is to have it go down further.

 

[wallylutz]

Comment

This thread is hilarious. I'd like to make a note of something, though.

Jeremy Abbott's PCS for SP:7.75 7.36 7.79 7.82 7.82
Jeremy Abbott's PCS for LP: 7.89 7.57 7.39 7.89 7.93

So, how is it the Chan with three falls gets crucified but Abbott with two falls, two step-outs and one popped jump getting the exact same PCS in his two programs (remember, he was clean in the short) doesn't get a single peep in this thread. How is it that janetfan, pangandtongfan, musekskt8r can go into childish hysterics and venemous sarcasm about Chan without mentioning that other skaters benefit from this structure in COP too?

If missed this discussion, I genuinely apologize (Also, post a link). I'm disappointed that a four fall Chan can win, truly I am. I'm glad he didn't win (I genuinely would fear for his safety at this point, given the mindless hysteria), and I'm glad that Verner can deliver two consistent performances. I'm growing to love both of Abbott's programs in a way I'm not with Chan's, and I think Chan is by far the more interesting skater. But the level of vitrol here is truly astonishing and it's really frustrating me in terms of actually having debates about what the sport can do to improve. You get the feeling if these guys saw Chan on the street, they'd give him a wedgie or something such is the level of discourse.

I think you missed quite a few names on your list of people who should own up and explain their double-standard. I would have more respect for them if they just honestly say: "I don't like Patrick Chan because of XXX reason(s)" as opposed to going through the whole brouhaha: Judges are corrupted, CoP is wrong and Evan won because he is supported by USFS oh and, the Int'l letter writing campaign to the ISU Don't get me wrong, it makes reading GS really, really entertaining because it's so far out there that it's almost comical if not for the sad reality some of these people are actually serious in what they said.

Didn't get to watch the Men's LP today and only reviewed the protocol. I am glad Chan didn't win too even though it was mostly due to his last combo being invalidated because the hysteria that would most certainly follow would have been unbearable and you never know what some extreme people may do to themselves and others.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I agree bekalc - I don't like the idea of a three (or even two fall, though that depends on technical content, of course) cushion over the field.

I think I'd be fine (without giving it MUCH thought) with a fall on a jump being worth the same as that jump w/ one less rotation with a 0 (or even -1) GOE. The problem with that as the system is currently structured is that that means horrible but landed jumps would see a huge penalty. It's rare though (one judge gave Takahashi a -3 for his 1S that he popped at NHK). Maybe a -4 level GOE strictly for elements with falls?