Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

[silverlake22]

I feel like we've discussed Chan to death.

Here's a thought on Verner. What happens if say at the GPF, he skates well but doesn't do the quad and earns a pretty good placement, say 3rd - will he leave out the quad for the rest of the season? If he can continue to skate clean he probably doesn't need it for Europeans to win a medal (maybe even gold), and then if he doesn't do it there idk if he would try it for the first time at Worlds. I think he said he was going to try the quad at the GPF, and I hope he does, but I can't help but wonder if he doesn't do it their and manages to do pretty well for himself, if he will change his current gameplan.

And no this does not mean he is turning into Lysacek I'm just speculating. Plus if he manages to get a big PCS boost ala Lysacek he might feel he doesn't need the quad...

 

[gmyers]

I think great results without quads will totally make the Verner pledges to do quads totally irrelevent. But he will never say it. He will always be "adding a quad in the future." He has already won a competition!

 

[gmyers]

Verner already changed his combination since CoC to 3lz-3t in the SP b/c of the flip edge call. I wouldn't be surprised if he changed his jump out of steps to a 3lo at the GPF now that it's worth essentially the same as a flip and he usually gets good GOE on his loop and can't get an edge call on it. He also said he might try the quad at at GPF because he has nothing to lose. I highly doubt he will put the quad in his SP this season, but I do think he may try it in the FS. His opening now is 3lz-3t right, so it's probably designed that he could do 4t-3t there instead and if he falls he adds the 3t to some other jump. Also if he does the quad then he could replace the 3f-2t-2lo combo at the end with a 3lz-2t-2lo combo and not have the do the flip which he gets edge calls on. Most skaters practice a few different arrangements of their programs so they can be ready to adapt in competition depending on what happens.

Verner's current layout is:

3lz-3t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s
x 2a
x 3f-2t-2lo

So the layout with the quad is likely

4t-3t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s
x 2a
x 3lz-2t-2lo

And if he falls on the quad or doesn't do it in combination he could do:

4t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s-3t
x 2a
x 3lz-2t-2lo

I tend to think he will eventually attempt the quad this season because if he does he can replace the flip combo at the end with a lutz combo and not get an edge call for it. He always did the quad before so I don't know why he would just abandon it now, especially where he was scored pretty stingily at CoC and in the SP here. I think the GPF will be telling. At Europeans I wonder if he might not do the quad just because he probably doesn't need it there to win a medal, and maybe the title. Worlds I tend to think he would go for it just because he probably realizes he's a bit of a longshot for a medal as is and the quad could make a big difference.

I read the second layout and would like to see that! I am going be really anxious about his free skate at the GPF when it is his turn.

 

[silverlake22]

I read the second layout and would like to see that! I am going be really anxious about his free skate at the GPF when it is his turn.

I'd like to see him do the 2nd layout too, if he can do it come worlds that would be very competitive for a medal. I'm not too worried about the GPF, it sounds like he wasn't expecting to go and doesn't really have expectations for himself there. I guess the only thing I maybe worry about there is if he has the SOHL, because it might mean he won't be able to have it again at Euros and Worlds when he needs/wants it most. But it seems like he's gotten much more consistent, so I think he'll be ok. I'd love to see him try the quad at the GPF, but even if he doesn't, I'm just happy to see him doing so well. It made me so sad last season to see him so sad and sick and upset.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Seems to me that Patrick and Dai both have some exceptional skills.
What I am honestly missing from this scoring system is how can Dai fall once and be placed third while Patrick can fall four times and be placed first.

I see a few areas where Patrick is better than Dai - just as I see areas where Dai is better than Patrick.

OT:
Your comparison has triggered my interest for the matter. So I went back and checked Patrick's SC 2010 and Dai's Olympics 2010's results.

Dai had wonderful SP, and got 90.25. Patrick fell three times in his SP and got 73.20.

Here are their LP results:

Takahashi:
Executed Elements.........................BaseValue.........GOE...........Score
4T (downgraded) ................................4.00......... -3.00............1.00
3A + 2T..............................................9.50............1.60..........11.10
3Lo + 3Lo............................................5.00...........0.40............5.40
Fly. Change Foot Sit Spin 4...................3.00...........0.40............3.40
Circular Step Sequence 4......................3.90...........2.20............6.10
3F +3T (downgraded)...........................7.48......... -1.60...........5.88
3S......................................................4.95...........1.00...........5.95
3A......................................................9.02...........1.80.........10.82
3L......................................................6.60......... -0.60...........6.00
3L + 2T..............................................8.03......... -0.60...........7.43
Fly. Change Foot Comb. Spin 3..............3.00...........0.20...........3.20
Straight Line Step Sequence 3...............3.30...........1.20...........4.50
Change Foot Combination Spin 2............2.50..........0.20...........2.70

Totals Executed Elements....................70.28............................73.48


Program Components

Choreography/Composition...................8.40
Transitions/Linking Footwork.................8.15
Interpretation....................................8.65
Performance/Execution.........................8.50
Skating Skills.......................................8.55

Factored Program Components........84.50

Total Deductions -1.00


Chan:

Executed Elements......................BaseValue...........GOE................Score
4T..............................................10.30...................2..................12.30
3A................................................8.50................ -3....................5.50
3Lz...............................................6.00................0.30..................6.30
SlSt3............................................3.30................. 1....................4.30
FSSp4..........................................3.00................0.79..................3.79
3A + 2T......................................10.89................0.29.................11.18
3Lz + 2Lo + 2S..............................8.69................0.30..................8.99
CSSp3..........................................2.60................0.57..................3.17
3F................................................5.83................0.30..................6.13
3Lo + 3T.......................................8.80............... -0.7..................8.10
2A................................................3.63...............0.50...................4.13
ChSt1...........................................2.00...............3.00...................5.00
CCoSp4........................................3.50...............0.79...................4.29

Total Executed Elements................77.04.....................................83.18
Deductions: -1.00

Program Components:

Choreography/Composition..................8.54
Transitions/Linking Footwork................8.21
Interpretation...................................8.39
Performance/Execution........................8.39
Skating Skills......................................8.54

Total Factored PCS: 84.14

From their results, I don't see that the judges were particularly favoring Patrick Chan. Their PCS were almost identical in a one fall LP. The differences were that the Jump values are up this season. Dai had two downgrades which really hurted him in the TES. Chan got 6.79 higher in base value in TES also benefit from getting full credit for the 3A he fell. Though Chan got 6.14 on GOE. Dai got 3.20 GOE. Chan's GOE was 2.94 higher. However, SC silver medalist Oda's score was 236.52. Three points lower than Chan's 239.52. If we minus 2.94 on Chan's score, he was still 0.06 point higher than Oda. Bearly but it was not the factor that Chan was favored over Dai, therefore Chan was first but Dai was third.

My conclusion is that Chan is, indeed, a technician kind of skater. His program is the most CoP friendly program. Of course he is a judges' favor but he's not the only one that the judges favored, as several of you have already said. If we want to change the 3 fall or 4 fall cushions, we have to change the scoring system again. The judges have all learned to focus on and focus only on the little fractionalized details of each program. They have no control of and been taught not to control over the whole situation. With such a system, this is the result.

I'm actually starting to feel sympathized to Chan. He is like a victim of the CoP. Being targeted and angried by so many figure skating fans and very possibly by many in the field.

 

[Bruin714]

It seems to me that the skaters and judges are doing their job. Chan shouldn't be blamed or hated for this. What people are complaining about is the scoring system that allows very flawed programs to win.

In that case, maybe falls should be penalized more, instead of a one point deduction, a five point deduction. Three falls for Chan, or anybody else would take them off the podium.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It seems to me that the skaters and judges are doing their job. Chan shouldn't be blamed or hated for this. What people are complaining about is the scoring system that allows very flawed programs to win.

In that case, maybe falls should be penalized more, instead of a one point deduction, a five point deduction. Three falls for Chan, or anybody else would take them off the podium.

Chan fell four times. Deducting 16 more points from his total would give him 211.21. Removing the extra eight points from Abbott (who fell twice) would give him 209.21. The podium at CoR wouldn't change.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I don't want to see skaters being punished by trying harder jumps. I think one fall on quad should be above a clean program without quad. And the quad is the most likely jump to have falls and deductions. So maybe the better solution is to keep -1 deduction for the first fall, and give -3 for the second fall, -5 for the third fall, and so on.

 

[FlattFan]

Chan fell four times. Deducting 16 more points from his total would give him 211.21. Removing the extra eight points from Abbott (who fell twice) would give him 209.21. The podium at CoR wouldn't change.

No one is complaining about the podium placement. What they're saying is Chan would win had he not add the 3T after his 2A. The deduction would make it impossible for him. Isn't this what people got worked up about?

 

[pangtongfan]

I would actually have a system you are deducted 5 additional points for the 2nd fall, 15 additional points for the 3rd fall, 30 additional points for the 4th fall. Make it nearly impossible for many fall programs to win or even medal, which is exactly how it should be. As the risks part know if you try the quad and fall it can be fine as long as you dont fall on another jump and for sure dont fall on two more jumps.

 

[bestskate8]

In FS Chan can’t handle choreography he is given, so he can’t’ get high marks for this. His Interpretation and Performance/Execution was awful and he was over scored by judges, with performance like COR he should get around 4 or 5 and get seventh place overall. There was zero connection to the music and audience.
Judges had some mushrooms again. They are ruining the sport.
I feel sorry for young skaters who working very hard to skate clean programs and then get mislead by watching competitions like men SC and COR

 

[Blades of Passion]

LOL, those suggestions about falls are ridiculous.

The elements themselves just need a much bigger reduction in value from -GOE. And judges need to stop giving high PCS for crappy performances just because of a skater's "name".

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I would actually have a system you are deducted 5 additional points for the 2nd fall, 15 additional points for the 3rd fall, 30 additional points for the 4th fall. Make it nearly impossible for many fall programs to win or even medal, which is exactly how it should be. As the risks part know if you try the quad and fall it can be fine as long as you dont fall on another jump and for sure dont fall on two more jumps.

Within the same program, right?.

So Chan would lose 20 more points (the first fall in each program maintaining only the -1 deduction) and Abbott losing 5 (first fall in LP maintaining). Well, Chan would drop off the podium, but only by .09. He'd still be on if he didn't do the fourth combo error.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It seems to me that the skaters and judges are doing their job. Chan shouldn't be blamed or hated for this. What people are complaining about is the scoring system that allows very flawed programs to win.

In that case, maybe falls should be penalized more, instead of a one point deduction, a five point deduction. Three falls for Chan, or anybody else would take them off the podium.

What we have to weigh here is that Chan was given a +1 for an incomplete quad which negated a -1 for a Fall. Is that fair? Does the lack of continuity of a flawed program show up in the PC scores?

 

[pangtongfan]

Within the same program, right?.

So Chan would lose 20 more points (the first fall in each program maintaining only the -1 deduction) and Abbott losing 5 (first fall in LP maintaining). Well, Chan would drop off the podium, but only by .09. He'd still be on if he didn't do the fourth combo error.

Yes within the same program of course. Basically if you have 3 actual falls in a program, not just stumbles/touchdowns/pops or mistakes, your score should always suck and under those rules it would no matter what.

So Chan if he falls 3 times in one of his programs (like the short at Skate Canada or the long here in Russia) would struggle to even maybe get 3rd place at a grand prix event with mediocre field and mostly mediocre skating? That makes sense. It would make alot more sense to the general public which is already increasingly alienated from the sport in recent years anyway. Basically nobody should do well with that many falls.

Then in an event like 2006 Turin Olympics with Sasha losing an additional 5 points for a 2nd fall (assuming it was counted as such), and if Irina wasnt so overscored for one of her worst ever performances, someone like Suguri could have been 2nd then if she didnt double one jump, which as it was she couldnt have medaled even with anyway.

 

[Bluebonnet]

LOL, those suggestions about falls are ridiculous.

The elements themselves just need a much bigger reduction in value from -GOE. And judges need to stop giving high PCS for crappy performances just because of a skater's "name".

Why it's ridiculous? What is crappy performance? How much PCS should a crappy performance worth? There is no clear cut. If there is no clear cut, defferent judge will treat the same situation differently with subjectivity involved. Same as -GOEs. Too subjective to make it reliable, I think.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Yes within the same program of course. Basically if you have 3 actual falls in a program, not just stumbles/touchdowns/pops or mistakes, your score should always suck and under those rules it would no matter what.

So Chan if he falls 3 times in one of his programs (like the short at Skate Canada or the long here in Russia) would struggle to even maybe get 3rd place at a grand prix event with mediocre field and mostly mediocre skating? That makes sense. It would make alot more sense to the general public which is already increasingly alienated from the sport in recent years anyway. Basically nobody should do well with that many falls.

Then in an event like 2006 Turin Olympics with Sasha losing an additional 5 points for a 2nd fall (assuming it was counted as such), and if Irina wasnt so overscored for one of her worst ever performances, someone like Suguri could have been 2nd then if she didnt double one jump, which as it was she couldnt have medaled even with anyway.

Wouldn't Denis Ten at Skate America have a negative score with that rule? Are you willing to go to 60 points for the 5th fall? Quick check says that nope, he would've stayed on the plus side of the 0 barrier. Scoring something like 2 points.

 

[burntBREAD]

Wouldn't Denis Ten at Skate America have a negative score with that rule? Are you willing to go to 60 points for the 5th fall? Quick check says that nope, he would've stayed on the plus side of the 0 barrier. Scoring something like 2 points.

That's very true.

 

[pangtongfan]

Wouldn't Denis Ten at Skate America have a negative score with that rule? Are you willing to go to 60 points for the 5th fall? Quick check says that nope, he would've stayed on the plus side of the 0 barrier. Scoring something like 2 points.

2 points would have been a good score for his Ten's 5 fall performance there anyway. It would have ensured him last place and for that many falls when he isnt even that great a skater to begin with, it would be about right.

I will take that over skaters winning gold medals with 4 falls over clean performances by main competitors since they have good skating skills anyday.

 

[Bruin714]

I would actually have a system you are deducted 5 additional points for the 2nd fall, 15 additional points for the 3rd fall, 30 additional points for the 4th fall. Make it nearly impossible for many fall programs to win or even medal, which is exactly how it should be. As the risks part know if you try the quad and fall it can be fine as long as you dont fall on another jump and for sure dont fall on two more jumps.

I think that's an even better suggestion. I agree that if a skater falls on a difficult quad, he would only lose 1 point. Now in the same program, if there's two falls, that should receive a more severe deduction. And three falls should make even Chan, Taka, Yuna, Davis & White, Virtue & Moir, S&S, and any other competitor out of medal contention. (The same applied to Browning, Kwan, Cohen, Slutskaya, Gordeava & Grinkov, etc.)