Mens Free Skate

[Mathman]

Actually, there is a nice point there. Without a quad combo, a skater pretty much has to do all six different kinds of triples whether he wants to or not.

Here's a short program question that came up in this event. Lysacek did a 4T+2T for his combination. Then he did a triple Lutz out of footwork. Would he be better off to have done a triple Lutz-triple toe for his combo and a quad for his solo jump? Or is it too hard to do a quad out of footwork.

Also, IIRC Jeremy Abbott intended a quad combo for the first element, but barely got his quad off and could not add a second jump. Then he improvised a 3Lz+3T. Do the judges go back and redo the GOE for the quad, since now the quad counts as the solo jump (no footwork), instead of the original combo score (no combo)? It seems like either way that should be a -3 GOE, but then he got negative GOE anyway for a bad landing. (The actual GOEs were -3s and -2's).

 

[GoldMedalist]

That's one of many cases regarding the whole situation with GOE marks being mis-used. Those grades should be about the quality of the element ONLY.

Incorrect actions in the SP, wrong take-off edges, downgraded jumps....all of these things should be a numeric deduction or a reduction in the base value of the element. Shouldn't have anything to do with GOE.

 

[kyla2]

Too bad class has left the sport and some of its viewers. Yup, it's a sport alright, but that has nothing to do with the point I am making. This kind of behavior, televised nationally, is not good for the sport.

 

[seafoam]

actually love the passion Evan can bring to his program - but except for his Straight-Line-footworks it wasn't really there, not in SP or LP. Though I doubt the massive GOE he got on his LP-Straighline is justified.

I was actually surprised at both his programs. When I read the scores, before I saw them, I assumed that Evan had really turned it on--as he is more than capable of doing--and that accounted for the closeness of the scores. (I had seen Johnny's SP and thought that it was pretty well flawless.) But both his SP and (especially) his FS were far from his best, both technically and the performance--except for the SLSS, as you mentioned.

The PCS was strange, someone else already pointed out that Evan got less PCS for his LP last year, than he got this year. But the thing with Johnny's program is that the hard jumps are all at the beginning of his program - his triple axel is so good, can't he put one of them after the halfway-mark?

His LP seems like a security-program for me, something to increase his self-confidence. It is a good program, but it is - even combined with all the Johnny-artistry and liquid gold stuff - not really an outstanding program. He can make it a great performance (like yesterday) but it is nothing compared to the intensity of Otonal or the The Swan.

I agree. Obviously, it has gotten the job done for him more often than not this season, but it doesn't give me goosebumps like his Swan, Valse Triste, or Otonal. What was amazing about his skate yesterday was the intensity of his performance. I just don't get the comments from the media that he was uninspired or methodical, etc.

About the triple axel, I think he was doing his solo triple axel later in the program last season, and doubled it or popped it repeatedly. Maybe they just didn't want to risk it. Now that he's more focused on conditioning and stamina, perhaps they can try it next season, along with the quad.

 

[yelyoh]

I said this on another thread but will say it again. I think these two skaters doing the same programs at an international comp would yield a different result. JW would win by several points.

Evan's 3x in the sp finished rotating on the ice bigtime. He should not have received credit for having done one. His jumps in the LP were a mess and he should have been zinged for them more. Evan receiving nearly identical scores as Johnny in the LP for choreography, performance and interpretation is a joke. Evan was sloppy and frenetic. His flow was interrupted with the jumps mistakes . That arm trashing looked as though he was reaping wheat rather than skating. Evan was held up. It will be interesting to see how they both do at Worlds.

Anyway, good for JW for improvements this year. But I wish he would stop being so snotty towards Evan. This is beginning to resemble Plush and Yags. The whole thing makes me uncomfortable and I wish NBC had not stoked the flames of this "rivalry" so. It's tacky and cheesy. Shame on them!!!!!!

 

[emma]

That's one of many cases regarding the whole situation with GOE marks being mis-used. Those grades should be about the quality of the element ONLY.

Incorrect actions in the SP, wrong take-off edges, downgraded jumps....all of these things should be a numeric deduction or a reduction in the base value of the element. Shouldn't have anything to do with GOE.

I'm intrigued by the question MM raised...and based on this response....that means base values - at least in the short with required jump out of steps -- actually can only be awarded/granted once all the elements are completed/program over...is THAT how the process of awarding base values happens OR is there an assumption made based on submission of planned program???

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That's one of many cases regarding the whole situation with GOE marks being mis-used. Those grades should be about the quality of the element ONLY.

Incorrect actions in the SP, wrong take-off edges, downgraded jumps....all of these things should be a numeric deduction or a reduction in the base value of the element. Shouldn't have anything to do with GOE.

Praise to be. It is not just my thinking. Give them a numeric deduction or better still a reduction in the base value of the element. This will keep the judging in a sense of uniformity. Use the GoEs for pluses, especially executed jumps, like Carriere's two arms over the head

Joe

 

[Jaana]

WOW, it was a very close competition indeed... Weir can only blame himself for his loss (did not do everything he could have done to get points), in my opinion. Besides, as I watched the freeskates of Lysacek and Weir, I could not help noticing that Weir´s programme looks more easy, crossovers, not as difficult jump entries as Lysacek has. Lysacek´s footwork is not admired just by US judges, he has gotten level 4 from internations judges also. Weir has still a lot of work to do in his skating, I hope he has it in him to continue his work, but I´m afraid that he will always repeat the same "mistakes".

 

[georgia]

Well, there is a reason for everything. Judging made Boitano a better skater. He had to work twice as hard to get the judges give him credit. Look at him now. I am hoping, this injustice will work to Johnny's benefit.
Johnny's coach is a very smart lady. She will guide him to the right direction. He just have to listen.
It doesn't matter who won on paper, Johnny out skated Evan.
On the other hand, it's also a fact that Evan is not only a good skater, but also a great competitor. I am not so sure, his coach is as let's say street smart enough, to guide him properly.

 

[dorispulaski]

To those asking Johnny to change his program and make it more difficult, recall that he was unable to skate his last year's program flawlessly. His success at this program shows that his coach & choreographer did exactly the right things for him to move ahead again.

 

[emma]

To those asking Johnny to change his program and make it more difficult, recall that he was unable to skate his last year's program flawlessly. His success at this program shows that his coach & choreographer did exactly the right things for him to move ahead again.

This I couldn't agree with more wholeheartedly - and I think the real 'victory' for Johnny is he met the challenge/guidance set out by his new team under enormous pressure and even with this year's 'building so not AS complicated approach' there is still some room to grow. I look so forward to worlds and can't wait to see the plan for next year too - and that goes for Evan as well, gutsy guy also sticking to plan, I can't wait to see what comes of it. And then ditto for the other top men (I am still so impressed).

 

[chuckm]

This I couldn't agree with more wholeheartedly - and I think the real 'victory' for Johnny is he met the challenge/guidance set out by his new team under enormous pressure and even with this year's 'building so not AS complicated approach' there is still some room to grow. I look so forward to worlds and can't wait to see the plan for next year too - and that goes for Evan as well, gutsy guy also sticking to plan, I can't wait to see what comes of it. And then ditto for the other top men (I am still so impressed).

Johnny was unable to skate his last year's program because he was underprepared! Priscilla Hill didn't push him hard enough, and he wasn't motivated to improve.

He is motivated now, and he has a coach who makes him work hard. He left out two double jumps in his Nationals program, and that was enough to keep him in a tie instead of winning the FS. He knows that, and I'm sure he won't make that mistake at Worlds.

 

[emma]

Johnny was unable to skate his last year's program because he was underprepared! Priscilla Hill didn't push him hard enough, and he wasn't motivated to improve.

He is motivated now, and he has a coach who makes him work hard. He left out two double jumps in his Nationals program, and that was enough to keep him in a tie instead of winning the FS. He knows that, and I'm sure he won't make that mistake at Worlds.

We're basically in agreement, right? I mean, I agree Johnny was not well trained or prepared last year and he himself has said that too; and I agree he is well prepared and well trained - and here attributed it in part to his new team but also to him responding to their guidance. And I'm saying he left points on the table of his planned program and can't wait to see him continue to prepare this season and NOT to that at worlds (leave points on the table); and I think that's exactly what he'll do - continue to grow as a competitor.

 

[gsrossano]

A bit of mathematical trivia for the Men's final.

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/usnats08.htm

 

[Mathman]

Does Johnny win with no rounding at all?

 

[GoldMedalist]

Does it really matter? Whatever the judging system, Johnny should have won. This is a problem with USFSA and their henchmen, nothing else.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Let me put it this way: I preferred Johnny's skate over Evan's by a small amount As I said I do not think either gave a stellar performance.

What happened was left to the CoP and the Rules of the Tie. Over and out.

Joe

 

[jennylovskt]

What happened was left to the CoP and the Rules of the Tie. Over and out.

Joe

But CoP can be manipulated, especially PCS. I have no problem with the Rule of the Tie. I don't think the judges could, in any way, make a tie, but they could give Evan as many points as they could possiblly give without an obvious wrong doing. But this time it showed. They gave Evan PCS 76.76 for last year's skate of a lifetime at the Nationals, gave him PCS 78.72 for this year's shaky, no fire (except the 5 second straight line foot work, to be fair), plain in choreography LP.

Some one suggested that PCS is the biggest place holder. That is the problem which is bothering people. I am wondering if these judges are from this planet if you say there is absolutely no bias.