Men's LP JGP Courchevel 2012

[dorispulaski]

Here's the start order!

Warm-Up Group 1
1 Marcus BJORK SWE 18 36.61
2 Vincent CUEREL SUI 19 32.78
3 Pavel STRAKACH BLR 21 31.57
4 Julian LAGUS FIN 20 32.46
5 Vlad IONESCU ROU 17 36.71

Warm-Up Group 2
6 Sondre ODDVOLL BOE NOR 14 41.07
7 Panagiotis POLIZOAKIS GER 12 45.68
8 Peter James HALLAM GBR 15 39.43
9 Alessandro PEZZOLI ITA 13 42.57
10 Jui-Shu CHEN TPE 16 39.39

Warm-Up Group 3
11 Mikhail KOLAYDA RUS 8 50.51
12 Victor BUSTAMANTE ESP 9 49.42
13 Charles TETAR FRA 10 49.23
14 Simon HOCQUAUX FRA 7 51.02
15 Nam NGUYEN CAN 11 46.06

Warm-Up Group 4
16 Harrison CHOATE USA 4 57.67
17 Ryuju HINO JPN 2 59.70
18 Jason BROWN USA 3 59.33
19 Ivan PAVLOV UKR 5 52.73
20 Alexander PETROV RUS 6 51.74
21 Boyang JIN CHN 1 62.98

 

[Mao88]

MENS COMPETITION - VIDEOS & RESULT

1. Boyang JIN (CHN) - 194.13 Short Program, Free Skate
2. Jason BROWN (USA) - 185.81 Short Program, Free Skate
3. Ryuju HINO (JPN) - 181.61 Short Program, Free Skate
4. Harrison CHOATE (USA) - 169.70 Short Program, Free Skate
5. Alexander PETROV (RUS) - 159.68 Short Program, Free Skate
6. Mikhail KOLAYDA (RUS) - 159.22 Short Program, Free Skate
7. Charles TETAR (FRA) - 154.29 Short Program, Free Skate
8. Ivan PAVLOV (UKR) - 149.87 Short Program, Free Skate
9. Nam NGUYEN (CAN) - 148.45 Short Program, Free Skate
10. Simon HOCQUAUX (FRA) - 143.71 Short Program, Free Skate
11. Panagiotis POLIZOAKIS (GER) - 135.58 Short Program, Free Skate
12. Victor BUSTAMANTE (ESP) - 132.83 Short Program, Free Skate

Here are the protocols

 

[emma]

Thanks for the information and links; congrats to the medalists! Quick look the protocols....it is early in the season of course, but Brown's edge calls on the lutz among other jump issues screams to me he needs a good jump coach. Hope he is getting that or gets that soon.

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks for the information and links; congrats to the medalists! Quick look the protocols....it is early in the season of course, but Brown's edge calls on the lutz among other jump issues screams to me he needs a good jump coach. Hope he is getting that or gets that soon.

I think the UR issues are more of a tightness or nervousness at this competition. He probably might have been a bit woundup from the mistakes the day before. In discussions about Jason in the past some have said he has a slight flutz, and it was more noticeable today. (he kicks to the inside-edge right at the last minute). But it's not the worst flutz -- just a matter of holding that edge to the end, definitely fixable.

Judges, however, must have liked his program and how it's packaged because his PCS is NINE points above the rest of the competition (and in double digits when compared to Boyang Jin). That basically kept him in the running as he was 15 points behind Boyang in TES (and 7 points behind Hino, the bronze medalist). In the junior women's competition, for example while Radionova crushed her competition her PCS in the FS was just 1.71 points above the next highest skater (Ashley Cain).

But for everyone's sake I do hope Jason gets everything together with the 3A and what not.

I lke Boyang! He's sort of like Yan's little bro (as far as the jump arsenal). But he has nice speed and ice coverage.

 

[noidont]

There are moments in Brown's LP that yell Mao Asada. I don't really get how he outscored Jin for 10 points in PCS. The program is too ladyesque. It kind of drives me crazy.
I thought Petrov's LP was the most entertaining.

 

[emma]

^ yes, yes, it's because of the PCS marks and his (jason's) large lead on that side of the scoreboard that I said I hope he can work out the jumps; triple axel a must, but also avoiding the flutz and I forget now what else (underrotations perhaps?). But I do hear you re: nervousness might explain some of this. It is just that he is such a good and such a creative skater, I want him to have the jumps to really be able to shine competitively (and yes, in seniors - I think he is doing absolutely fabulously in juniors in terms of medals etc, but he needs those jumps to make the leap to seniors).

 

[Mrs. P]

^ yes, yes, it's because of the PCS marks and his (jason's) large lead on that side of the scoreboard that I said I hope he can work out the jumps; triple axel a must, but also avoiding the flutz and I forget now what else (underrotations perhaps?). But I do hear you re: nervousness might explain some of this. It is just that he is such a good and such a creative skater, I want him to have the jumps to really be able to shine competitively (and yes, in seniors - I think he is doing absolutely fabulously in juniors in terms of medals etc, but he needs those jumps to make the leap to seniors).

The good news is he does have time. Jaosn turns 18 in December. It seems that with the men (with exceptions of course) it is reasonable to peak in the early 20s.

Back to the discussion at large, Nam Nguyen was interesting to watch. He made some mistakes at this competition, but I think clearly they reflect him getting use to his growing body. I can already see that once he is done growing he is going to have some beautiful lines in his skating. He already has a really nice look.

 

[janetfan]

Please be careful with any over-hyping of Jason's crowd pleasing skating.

It will surely lead to an outburst of "CFP."

 

[mskater93]

CFP, janet? What is that?

Noidont, just because you think is program is too feminine doesn't make the blade to ice content bad or him not deserving his scores on that side of the board. Having shared the ice with Jason, I can say he is one of the quietest on his skates and deserving of what he gets in SS as it looks effortless. He is magnetic on the ice (especially in person) which improves his IN mark (and this is something natural). I try not to be on a session with him as it's too distracting.

He looked a little forced on a couple of his jumps which is probably why the URs and more pronounced "e" on the Lutz. He usually just lets the blade do the work on his jumps, but not as much here.

I know Kori will bring in whoever she feels is a good fit to work with him. She's a nurturing and caring coach and typically wants what is best for her students in all things. Rumblings are that the 3A is closer to consistent in practice, but we shall see when he puts it out.

 

[silverlake22]

Jason needs the 3a. Period. I don't care if he falls on it or even under-rotates it, he should at least be going for it every chance he gets. If he wants to be competitive on the senior level he'll need a 3a in the SP and two in the FS AT A MINIMUM, with his flutz getting called now and the current state of men's skating, he likely will need a consistent quad on top of that even with all the good qualities his skating has. Time is ticking, he's almost 18, he's not injured that I've heard of, he hasn't gone through another growthspurt, so really, there's no reason he shouldn't be trying that jump. I hope losing to this unknown much younger Chinese boy has given him the reality check he needs to start trying the 3a no matter what. Unless of course, he really doesn't have a 3a, in which case, I'm even more worried. It might be time to drop Kori Ade for a new coach that's more technical and can take him to the next level. At this point, it looks like he might not even be one of the very top juniors on the international scene this season, and that's alarming. I really like Jason and hope he can get the 3a and work out the other kinks in his programs, but really, if he's serious about his future in the sport, things need to change and fast.

On a different note, Jin has amazing potential! I hope he can continue to jump that well once he finishes going through puberty. Incredible jumper for a boy his age and size though, wow!

Hino is also a great jumper, that 3a-3t was fabulous, however, he really needs to work on PCS.

Choate does nothing for me but he skated pretty well here and I wouldn't mind seeing him get another event considering beyond Brown, Chen, and Farris, the JGP mens pool in the US is not that deep this season.

 

[draqq]

Jason lost about 10 points with all the flutz and underrotation calls (some of which I think are bit too harsh). I felt he was a lot more comfortable at Glacier Falls; perhaps he hasn't had enough time cutting 30 seconds off the program. The short program probably rocked him too with the terrible spins, so I felt he was tentative the whole way through.

I agree with silverlake22 on his 3A. He's been working on it throughout the summer but I think he's still troubled by it. Jason just needs more height on his jumps and a technical coach to get him through these hurdles, because he's going to need at least an attempt on the 3A to raise his base score. Just by not attempting three 3As in the short and long, he's leaving 15.6 points on the table.

As for Jin and Hino, their jumps are sustaining them for now, but their skating is quite basic. Transition marks in the 4s are deficient.

 

[figureskatingfan22]

I was really curious before the competition whether or not Jason Brown would try the 3A. The fact that he did not even try one, pretty much sealed the deal for me. He might surprise me, but I think he's won't make it very far in Seniors. He's almost 18 and he hasn't even tried one 3A in competition. I wonder if he should have switched to Ice Dance when he was younger. He has great skating and interpretation skills and trouble with the more difficult jumps.

BTW, I also don't think Jin will have great success in Seniors. He has great jumps (even a 4t!), but not so much else. Today you need good jumps AND good skating skills to be successful in Seniors. Therefore I see more potential in Nam Nguyen for example, but who knows what will happen in the future.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Jason needs the 3a. Period. I don't care if he falls on it or even under-rotates it, he should at least be going for it every chance he gets. If he wants to be competitive on the senior level he'll need a 3a in the SP and two in the FS AT A MINIMUM, with his flutz getting called now and the current state of men's skating, he likely will need a consistent quad on top of that even with all the good qualities his skating has. Time is ticking, he's almost 18, he's not injured that I've heard of, he hasn't gone through another growthspurt, so really, there's no reason he shouldn't be trying that jump. I hope losing to this unknown much younger Chinese boy has given him the reality check he needs to start trying the 3a no matter what. Unless of course, he really doesn't have a 3a, in which case, I'm even more worried. It might be time to drop Kori Ade for a new coach that's more technical and can take him to the next level. At this point, it looks like he might not even be one of the very top juniors on the international scene this season, and that's alarming. I really like Jason and hope he can get the 3a and work out the other kinks in his programs, but really, if he's serious about his future in the sport, things need to change and fast.

On a different note, Jin has amazing potential! I hope he can continue to jump that well once he finishes going through puberty. Incredible jumper for a boy his age and size though, wow!

Comparing Jin and Brown:

Age - 14 vs 17

TES

SP: 36.80 - 28.95 = 7.85 Jin (BV: 34.60 - 28.10 = 6.5 Jin)
LP: 74.65 - 59.62 = 15.03 Jin (BV LP: 74.87 - 57.89 = 16.98 Jin)

Total TES 111.45 - 88.57 = 22.88 Jin (BV 109.47 - 85.99 = 23.48 Jin)

PCS
SP: 26.18 - 30.38 = 4.20 Brown
LP: 56.50 - 66.86 = 10.36 Brown

Total PCS: 82.68 - 97.24 = 14.56 Brown

So Jin is up about 23 points over Brown in TES and Brown is about 14.5 over Jin in PCS. However, it's worth noting that there is not a big difference in their SS, about half a point (5.68 vs vs 6.21 SP and 6.21 vs 6.64 LP), which mean much of Jin's PCS deficits can be made up with a better choreography, and simply by a couple years of growth and experiences.

But Brown's main rivals in Junior competitions are still Han Yan and Joshua Farris. As discussed last season, what they need from the Wizard of Oz are choreography, personality, and Big Guy Jumps, respectively. Though all three are held at Junior by their federations, both Yan and Farris are ready to compete in Senior events but not Brown.

Draqq, if you feel the calls on Jason's jumps are harsh, then it may be said that judges are generous on his PCS. Can't have it both ways. All three of his 3Lz got edge calls so it's a consistent problem. In his LP, the only clean jumps were 2As and the 3F (and a couple of 2Ts). The indications are clear what he needs to work on.

As for Jin and Hino, their jumps are sustaining them for now, but their skating is quite basic. Transition marks in the 4s are deficient.

Brwon's PCS is sustaining him for now but he obviously has problems with his jumps, while Jin's and Hino's jumps will likely get even better and sustain them forever during their competitive careers. Jin received a few TR marks in the 4's but not over all. As I noted above, there is not much difference in his SS and Brwon's. A little growing up and better choreos will close the gap in PCS. The question is whether Brown can close the substantial TES gap between him and the younsters like Yan and Jin, not to mention his contemporary Hanyu.

 

[Mrs. P]

Not everyone is a Patrick Chan or a Hanyu Yuzuru who can blaze through seniors in their late teens. If you look who is competing in seniors -- many are seeing success and improving in the ratings in their early 20s.

Javier Fernendez breakout season this past season came as he turned 21.
Jeremy Abbott won his first national title at age 24.

Or on the ladies side, you got Akiko Suzuki who did her first 3-3 at the age of 26.

This was not a great competition for Jason, no doubt. But to declare him doomed after one int'l competition, especially one early in the season, is a bit premature.

ETA: Regarding SF's post above, it's good then that Jason is internationally junior another year. Some may think that as a major setback, but there has been other teams that have stewed in the junior ranks for a while and went on to do well in seniors. The Shibutanis, for example, were juniors at the national level for three seasons (two internationally).

 

[gmyers]

Philip Hersh has written a lot about Jason Brown because he is from Illinois and an article had a video attachd of him in the harness doing 3a over and over. I am not sure about non-harness. He should definitely be off the harness. Sometimes I think about Adam Rippon's world junior win in 2008 with no 3A but that was under the old underrotation regime so everyone avoiding it made a little sense but in 2009 it was back and Rippon and lots had a 3A. He and the team probably thinks if he is clean and others are messy he can win stuff like he did the JGPF. But a title really isn't important from jr to sr unless you also have the content to transfer from jr to sr.

 

[draqq]

Comparing Jin and Brown:

Draqq, if you feel the calls on Jason's jumps are harsh, then it may be said that judges are generous on his PCS. Can't have it both ways. All three of his 3Lz got edge calls so it's a consistent problem. In his LP, the only clean jumps were 2As and the 3F (and a couple of 2Ts). The indications are clear what he needs to work on.

Brwon's PCS is sustaining him for now but he obviously has problems with his jumps, while Jin's and Hino's jumps will likely get even better and sustain them forever during their competitive careers. Jin received a few TR marks in the 4's but not over all. As I noted above, there is not much difference in his SS and Brwon's. A little growing up and better choreos will close the gap in PCS. The question is whether Brown can close the substantial TES gap between him and the younsters like Yan and Jin, not to mention his contemporary Hanyu.

The technical panel is different than the main panel of nine judges who assess artistry and quality marks. Brown deserves high-6s, low-7s in PCS for his bladework, musicality, and fluidity. On a good day, which he did not have here, he deserves mid-7s on PCS.

Where I think the technical panel was harsh is in the 3F+3T+2T. I don't think that both the 3T and 2T were under-rotated. Some of the other underrotations were close calls and I think he was within the quarter-circle margin for some of the jumps that were called. The flutz calls are legit, however, and Jason needs to consider a different technique going into it.

The reason why Jin and Brown's SS are close is because of Jin's jump difficulty, which the judges factor into SS even if they are not really forced to. But we both agree that he needs a jumping coach, because he will need the 3A, a non-flutzed Lutz, and in my opinion a least one 4T attempt to secure a future in skating that lives up to both technical and artistic demands.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The technical panel is different than the main panel of nine judges who assess artistry and quality marks. Brown deserves high-6s, low-7s in PCS for his bladework, musicality, and fluidity. On a good day, which he did not have here, he deserves mid-7s on PCS.

Where I think the technical panel was harsh is in the 3F+3T+2T. I don't think that both the 3T and 2T were under-rotated. Some of the other underrotations were close calls and I think he was within the quarter-circle margin for some of the jumps that were called. The flutz calls are legit, however, and Jason needs to consider a different technique going into it.

That's your calls vs the TP's and the judges'. Theirs count. Fans' opinions don't.

The reason why Jin and Brown's SS are close is because of Jin's jump difficulty, which the judges factor into SS even if they are not really forced to.

Can't have it both ways here either. The judges gave Brown high PCS despite his low jump abilities and overall TES so why would they raise Jin's PCS because of his much higher jump content? OTOH What is commonly observed is that other component scores usually mirror a skater's SS score but in Jin's case all the other component scores are substantially lower than his SS, which leads me to think a good choreo will remedy much of the PCS deficiencies.

But we both agree that he needs a jumping coach, because he will need the 3A, a non-flutzed Lutz, and in my opinion a least one 4T attempt to secure a future in skating that lives up to both technical and artistic demands.

That seems to be the current Senior standard and the new wave of prodigies are achieving it at a much younger age than ever before.

 

[silverlake22]

When your tech content is huge, the judges can't really hold you down in PCS too much. We saw that with Nan Song last season. When he skated well, his PCS weren't stellar, but when combined with his hefty TES were enough to keep him afloat and allow him to medal in his GPs. However, when someone like Song skates poorly, his PCS plummet and he is nowhere near the top of the pack. The way I see it, if Jin is landing 3a and 4t with ease, and skates relatively cleanly otherwise, his PCS shouldn't be so low that they prevent him from beating another skater who attempted no 3a or 4t and had problems with his other jumps, it's just asking for controversy. That being said, should Jin have an off performance, I wouldn't be surprised to see his scores, including his PCS scores, drop quite a bit. In any event, his SS are pretty good and I don't think he was really overmarked for PCS. I certainly found his overall skating, jumps aside, more impressive than the likes of Choate and Hino, who IMO are quite awkward in the way they move across the ice.

 

[NMURA]

Overall Brown's performances are not that bad. He was overmarked throughout the last season and the judges have finally realized it should be stopped. Brown was allowed to finish above Hino with one fall since he didn't have major mistakes but the Chinese prodigy is beyond his reach. A 17 y.o. man who never attempts the 3A is not anyone's hope. A 14 y.o. boy who is armed with the 4T and 3A is their new idol. Their PCS gaps will be narrowed by each competitions and it's perfectly justifiable if SS is interpreted as "skater's status".

 

[doctor2014]

Our Chinese friends yousunny and SkateFiguring here told me about the new Chinese boy Boyan Jin, so I’m here to watch Jin’s video. Jin is indeed a talented boy with amazing jumps at this young age. OMG, he’s even more talented than Nathan and Nam Nguyen. And Jin is so cute, too! It’s a pleasure to watch him. I don’t think people should be too harsh on his lack of choreography and transitions. He’s still a little boy, and this is his first outing. Even though he doesn’t have the same level of choreography and transitions as Jason has now, I still have no doubt Jin will improve in those areas.

However, I just hope Jin will also improve his skating skills while he nails down his difficult jumps. Perhaps someone should introduce him to the concept of edges, as his edges are very shallow now. And he almost has no speed and no flow. I don’t want this talented cute boy to become another Javier or Liza, who were well loved when they first entered international scene but later are often criticized because they have difficult jumps but weak skating skills.

BTW, I also don't think Jin will have great success in Seniors. He has great jumps (even a 4t!), but not so much else. Today you need good jumps AND good skating skills to be successful in Seniors. Therefore I see more potential in Nam Nguyen for example, but who knows what will happen in the future.

I agree that Jin needs to work on his SS, but Nam Nguyen doesn’t have good SS, either. Nguyen’s SS, even though better than Jin, are still not that good. Right now I think Jin will be more successful than Nguyen because Jin needs to work on SS, but Nguyen has to work on both jumps and SS.

The judges gave Brown high PCS despite his low jump abilities and overall TES so why would they raise Jin's PCS because of his much higher jump content?

The judges did raise other skaters’ PCS because of higher jump content in the past. For instance, we can compare PCS scores of Javier and Daisuke:

Skate Canada 2011
PCS
Javier 81.14
Daisuke 83.84

SS
Javier 8.14
Daisuke 8.46

Worlds 2012
PCS
Javier 75.66
Daisuke 85.78

SS
Javier 7.68
Daisuke 8.71

As we can see, when Daisuke did not do well at SC and Javier landed his difficult jumps, they received close PCS scores including close SS scores. If you think there is not a big difference between Jin and Jason’s SS scores (6.21 vs 6.64), then the SS scores between Javier and Daisuke (8.14 vs 8.46) were even closer. But this doesn’t mean Javier and Daisuke’s actual skating skills are close—the SS scores might be close when Javier did well and Daisuke didn’t do well, but the judges knew that Javier’s actual skills were much worse than Daisuke’s. The judges just like to see higher jump content and are willing to reward it with inflated PCS. However, when Javier failed at the worlds, his PCS dropped vastly.

That’s why I think Jin should improve his SS and I don’t want to see the judges treating Jin in the same way as how they treated Javier. Jin is more talented than Javier, and it’s easier to learn skating skills at Jin’s age. If he gets to Javier’s age and then realizes he needs to improve his SS, then it’ll be too late.