Men's No. 1 spot up for grabs in 2008-09

[Buttercup]

Medusa, I'm all for Joubert winning some major events, but having read the Ice Network story about his withdrawing from Coupe de Nice, I'm kind of worried about him. I hope to see a confident Brian show up at TEB and skate well from there on. In my decade or so of following figure skating, I've always enjoyed mens' skating the most, and I agree about the diversity. It's really fun to watch.

I don't get the "it's a shame" bit about figure skating in the US. Higher ratings and increased attendance mean more money for TV rights, more ad revenue and more opportunities for skaters - not just Americans - to do shows and earn money. It also gets kids interested in skating. Those are all good things. I don't think this requires that Americans sweep everything. And there seem to be other countries where the success of local skaters has led to increased public interest and more opportunities for skaters, as seems to be the case with Japan.

Blades of Passion, I am by no means a fan of his, but is Evan Lysacek to blame for the fact that he skated relatively ok when other skaters didn't (2005)? He earned his medals by being better than most of the field, and at the end of the day that's what it comes down to. BTW, some people come straight to the forums without going through the home page, so posting links makes perfect sense, and if posters want to discuss them, why should that be a problem?

 

[Medusa]

Medusa, I'm all for Joubert winning some major events, but having read the Ice Network story about his withdrawing from Coupe de Nice, I'm kind of worried about him. I hope to see a confident Brian show up at TEB and skate well from there on.

Well, I was worried the entire last season about him - and he proved me wrong with his brilliant skate at Worlds, that proved in my opinion that he is the most consistent skater right now. You going to TEB?

I don't get the "it's a shame" bit about figure skating in the US.

I just mean that it is a shame that it depends on the US and that the popularity of figure skating around the world shouldn't be measured by its popularity in the US. Ice shows in Russia are often sold out, the skaters are stars there - Art on Ice in Western Europe is often sold out as are some French shows. And in Asia skating is really really big.

----------------------------
Ponsero won the Coupe de Nice a few hours ago, I really have a good feeling about him this season. He had three competitions so far and really kept it together in the long in those competitions, always including an excellent Quad.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Evan 0? How is that? Yes, he was very lucky in 2005, he didn't really have a good performance (but nobody had a good long program in 2005, including Lambiel and Buttle) - but so was Johnny this year. And in 2006 Evan was brilliant and clean! Oda wasn't better than Evan in 2006.

Can't argue with the National title though.

Johnny was better than Evan at Worlds in 2005.

Oda was also better than Evan in 2006. Evan messed up his Short Program again while Oda had the 2nd best of the event. Evan's LP was better but, no, it wasn't clean (his Quad/Triple combo was very messy) and shouldn't have been enough to pull him up to 3rd. Evan got the Bronze at that Championship because of a CoP scoring flaw - Oda did too many combinations and thus one of his jumping passes counted for nothing. Which is quite dumb, the rule needs to be changed so that only the extra jump which was executed is not counted. Johnny got HIS medal at Worlds this past year for that very same reason - Takahashi did an extra double toe on the end of his Triple Lutz and thus he unfairly lost around 7 points.

BTW, some people come straight to the forums without going through the home page, so posting links makes perfect sense, and if posters want to discuss them, why should that be a problem?

Maybe they shouldn't ignore the front page then? I just see a LOT of thread postings that get no replies or, like this one, contain material that is already being talked about in other threads. It clutters the board, pushing other threads down. Something to think about changing maybe. *shrug*

 

[Buttercup]

Well, I was worried the entire last season about him - and he proved me wrong with his brilliant skate at Worlds, that proved in my opinion that he is the most consistent skater right now. You going to TEB?

I wish I could, but no, it's too far away . I meant I hope to catch it on TV, or at least on Youtube. The article just made it seem as though mentally he wasn't totally prepared, and I hope he sorts all that out.

Which is quite dumb, the rule needs to be changed so that only the extra jump which was executed is not counted.

I agree it's dumb, but so long as it's the rule, skaters should take it into account and perform accordingly. BTW, Plushenko's only loss under CoP happened under similar circumastances, didn't it? (Joubert beat him at 2004 Euros but that was an expanded-panel 6.0)

 

[museksk8r]

Ponsero won the Coupe de Nice a few hours ago, I really have a good feeling about him this season. He had three competitions so far and really kept it together in the long in those competitions, always including an excellent Quad.

YEEEAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! I Yannick, my absolute favorite of the Frenchmen! I'd be totally thrilled for him to have a breakthrough season!! Please, consistency be Ponsero's friend! *hopes*

 

[Blades of Passion]

I agree it's dumb, but so long as it's the rule, skaters should take it into account and perform accordingly. BTW, Plushenko's only loss under CoP happened under similar circumastances, didn't it? (Joubert beat him at 2004 Euros but that was an expanded-panel 6.0)

It was Sandhu that Plushenko lost to, at a Grand Prix event. And, yes, it was because of a scoring error.

Some "rules" are incorrectly written and therefore misinterpret the point of what the rule is actually supposed to mean. Or they may be too vague. When grading competitions, I am objective. A skater accidentally tacking an extra double toeloop onto a jump is not something that is cause for massive penalty. If Oda or Takahashi had fallen on the triple jumps in question instead of adding the extra double toeloop on the end, those jump passes would have been worth MORE...clearly something is not right. I would rather use my head than follow a "rule" blindly.

If there was a rule that said a skater shall lose a point every time they blink, I wouldn't pay any attention to it either.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well Evan should have 0 and Johnny should have 1. Not to mention Johnny should have 4 National titles and Evan 1. But, who's counting.

I presume the 'should haves' are opinions and nothing factual

I realize that fandom doesn't change that much over the years. Everyone likes Johnny Weir, but facts remain facts forever. There is a new season approaching now, and new facts will emerge. Predictions are useless now, imo, and should be placed in the Worlds folder in Competitions and Events section.

 

[efreedman]

Maybe it was harsh. But it really bugged me. The title of this thread was

I thought that includes all the men. Not just the two with stars and stripes on them. This article also talked about lots of other men.

It relatively often happens that it's all about the Americans, including Canadians. Lot's of ice-dance threads get hijacked by a few people who think that the entire world is against the poor US-underdogs. There is this thread about the TV-broadcasts of the 2009 Worlds - and suddenly people start whining all over again about the fact that the US only have two spots for Worlds (Ladies).

But I guess this is a US-board and all of you are entitled to your patriotic opinions and ramblings. It would just really be nice to discuss all the skaters, their abilities, their pre-season so far...

The lady doth protest too much methinks.

 

[Hsuhs]

Right. Because that's all we care about, that the American men have a legitimate chance for a medal. Would serve you right if it's 1-2-3 Japan at the next Worlds on your home soil - Takahashi, Oda, Kozuka. And the ladies Asada, Kim, Ando/Nakano/Suzuki.

As I see it, icenetwork has it's own 'World Figure Skater Rankings' which look nothing like 'World Standings' provided by ISU:
http://www.isufs.org/ws/wsmen.htm

And I guess there is no surprise in the fact that this board can be pretty americentric sometimes (up to the point that it stops being funny). But it works for me since I have little interest in ladies, try to stay away from ice-dance threads, and have always had a feeling of choice reg staying / leaving.

Also, there is an ignore option under the Settings & Options link. Hope it helps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I presume the 'should haves' are opinions and nothing factual

I realize that fandom doesn't change that much over the years. Everyone likes Johnny Weir, but facts remain facts forever. There is a new season approaching now, and new facts will emerge. Predictions are useless now, imo, and should be placed in the Worlds folder in Competitions and Events section.

Actually Johnny should have won this past Nationals based on the scores given to him by the judges at that event alone. Haven't we all read about how they incorrectly rounded the scores at Nationals, resulting in Johnny losing .01 of a point (incredibly ironic that he needed that .01 to win)?

Aside from that, he clearly won the LP and should have been way ahead in the first place. There are many things I could point out, some of which are indeed opinion, one of the most blatant being that Evan's "interpretation" program component was higher than Johnny's. That's incredibly laughable. Yeah, it's actually an opinion, but it's also an opinion that Ingmar Bergman is a better director than Uwe Boll. I'll take the more well-informed and intelligent opinion.

 

[mycelticblessing]

Even if Buttle and Lambiel did not go into retirement, I would not have expected either of them to retain their world title in 2009. I think the battle of gold is between Joubert and Takahashi, with the two American men and Verner in the mix for a podium finish.

 

[merrybari]

Even if Buttle and Lambiel did not go into retirement, I would not have expected either of them to retain their world title in 2009. I think the battle of gold is between Joubert and Takahashi, with the two American men and Verner in the mix for a podium finish.

I'm looking forward to seeing the impact the elimination of a spin in the FS will have to improve/change the PCS/interpretation of the programs. I thought the idea was to give the skaters more time to "finish" the elements they include or be more creative in what they present. Will be fun to see if that happens.

I think you might be right about Buttle and Lambiel, but am not too sure I agree about BJ and DT. Their consistency is suspect, as is Verner's and even Weir's for that matter, and greatly dependent, imo, upon their mental frame of mind at any given time. In fact, Joubert aludes to this very thing in his Icenetwork article.

For my money, Evan is the most consistent elite skater on the ice today. Couple that with his mental toughness - he never loses the rest of the program because of a failed element - no implosions like we've seen from some of the others - and the work he's done with Tarasova this summer, I think the skating world is in for a treat. I certainly agree that he, Johnny and Tomas are in the mix for a medal! I also think Evan has a real shot at standing on the top of the podium in LA. It's way too soon to count him out! Actually, too soon to predict or count any of them out.

It boils down this year, as it always has in years past, to who has the best skate on any given day. Opinions will vary on that until the end of time! All the skaters can do is their best - the rest is beyond their control.

In an imperfect world, that means in the hands of the judges working with a nearly indecipherable judging system with rules that change continually. I'm glad to be in the seats watching!! And for all that take on the challenge of figuring it out.

Let the season begin!!!

 

[Buttercup]

I think you might be right about Buttle and Lambiel, but am not too sure I agree about BJ and DT. Their consistency is suspect, as is Verner's and even Weir's for that matter, and greatly dependent, imo, upon their mental frame of mind at any given time. In fact, Joubert aludes to this very thing in his Icenetwork article.

For my money, Evan is the most consistent elite skater on the ice today. Couple that with his mental toughness - he never loses the rest of the program because of a failed element - no implosions like we've seen from some of the others - and the work he's done with Tarasova this summer, I think the skating world is in for a treat. I certainly agree that he, Johnny and Tomas are in the mix for a medal! I also think Evan has a real shot at standing on the top of the podium in LA.

I believe the most consistent skater starting with 2006 Worlds has been Brian Joubert: a silver at that year's Worlds, sweeping all his events in 2006-7, and medals at last year's Europeans and Worlds, despite beign ill for a long time (and he looked really sick at Euros). He's won French Nationals every year since 2003 and has never finished off the podium at Europeans.

Your point about the mental issues is a good one, though, and we've seen the pressure get to skaters in the past. I hope not to see any meltdowns this year, from any skater. Let the best skate win, not the least awful skate (as happened in Moscow).

It boils down this year, as it always has in years past, to who has the best skate on any given day. Opinions will vary on that until the end of time! All the skaters can do is their best - the rest is beyond their control.

In another post (possibly on this thread?) I wrote that I feel there are two or three skaters who control their own destiny, so to speak, and several who are in the mix but need others to make mistakes in order to finish at the top of the podium at major events. I feel Joubert and Takahashi are in the first group; Brian has been more consistent while Dai probably has more ambitious programs (well, LPs, at least). I'd put Evan, Johnny, Tomas Verner, Patrick Chan, and maybe Voronov and KvdP in the second group. I'm not sure where to place Oda, as I haven't seen him skate in ages. But anything can happen, as we saw this year...

 

[DragonPhoenix]

but facts remain facts forever.

IMO, some facts remain ERROR " facts " forever, as well.

 

[ae9177]

I feel Joubert and Takahashi are in the first group; Brian has been more consistent while Dai probably has more ambitious programs (well, LPs, at least). I'd put Evan, Johnny, Tomas Verner, Patrick Chan, and maybe Voronov and KvdP in the second group. I'm not sure where to place Oda, as I haven't seen him skate in ages. But anything can happen, as we saw this year...

That's exactly how I feel. In men's field, consistency = success. IIRC, Joubert has the best post-(06)Olympics record, he's the only man who's never off the podium in any competition that he participated. Takahashi is a close 2nd, the only time he didn't make the podium was 08 worlds, where he finished 4th, but he deserved bronze IMO. Between the 2, I would give Dai the edge since he's currently the best all-around skater. He's got everything, but he's still lack of the confidence to take total control on ice like Plushenko. With Lambiel and Buttle's retirement, these 2 are clearly the front runners so far.

But things can definitely change in the pre-Olympic season. Lysacek, Weir and Oda are all capable to challenge the podium and even the gold if these 2 make any mistakes. Chan has the best basic skills in the younger generation, but don't forget Brezina, Kozuka and bunch of American and Russian boys. This year, Chan needs to step up for Team Canada.

Then, there're the wild cards. Plushenko, will he be back? I doubt if he can dominate the field as he used to, but he's still a main force. And Verner, this guy is the hardest to predict. I really like his presentation in Tango, very well choreographed, this program has great potential, but he's yet to put everything together at this point. His mental toughness and lack of consistency are the biggest hurdles for him to become a champion.

The men's field is still deep, more exciting than women's, due to the varieties of styles, everybody has something unique to bring to the table. I'm eager to see who'll be the new leaders in season 2009.

 

[Buttercup]

Verner, this guy is the hardest to predict. I really like his presentation in Tango, very well choreographed, this program has great potential, but he's yet to put everything together at this point. His mental toughness and lack of consistency are the biggest hurdles for him to become a champion.

I would love to see Tomas Verner do well this year. I never took much notice of him until catching the 2006 Oberstdorf Gala on TV, when it seemed pretty obvious that he was ready to take it to the next level. He has a great presence and personality on the ice and when he's on it's wonderful to watch. Since his is the same team that helped Carolina Kostner bounce back from 9th at Olys and 12th at 2006 Worlds to two European championships and a silver at Worlds, I hope to see a positive trend in his case, too.

 

[mycelticblessing]

That's exactly how I feel. In men's field, consistency = success. IIRC, Joubert has the best post-(06)Olympics record, he's the only man who's never off the podium in any competition that he participated. Takahashi is a close 2nd, the only time he didn't make the podium was 08 worlds, where he finished 4th, but he deserved bronze IMO. Between the 2, I would give Dai the edge since he's currently the best all-around skater. He's got everything, but he's still lack of the confidence to take total control on ice like Plushenko. With Lambiel and Buttle's retirement, these 2 are clearly the front runners so far.

I agree about Takahashi. To me, amongst the elite men, he has the best combination of artistry with technical elements. I'm really hoping he'll be in the top form for the next two seasons!

 

[merrybari]

That's exactly how I feel. In men's field, consistency = success. IIRC, Joubert has the best post-(06)Olympics record, he's the only man who's never off the podium in any competition that he participated. Takahashi is a close 2nd, the only time he didn't make the podium was 08 worlds, where he finished 4th, but he deserved bronze IMO. Between the 2, I would give Dai the edge since he's currently the best all-around skater. He's got everything, but he's still lack of the confidence to take total control on ice like Plushenko. With Lambiel and Buttle's retirement, these 2 are clearly the front runners so far.

But things can definitely change in the pre-Olympic season. Lysacek, Weir and Oda are all capable to challenge the podium and even the gold if these 2 make any mistakes. Chan has the best basic skills in the younger generation, but don't forget Brezina, Kozuka and bunch of American and Russian boys. This year, Chan needs to step up for Team Canada.

Then, there're the wild cards. Plushenko, will he be back? I doubt if he can dominate the field as he used to, but he's still a main force. And Verner, this guy is the hardest to predict. I really like his presentation in Tango, very well choreographed, this program has great potential, but he's yet to put everything together at this point. His mental toughness and lack of consistency are the biggest hurdles for him to become a champion.

The men's field is still deep, more exciting than women's, due to the varieties of styles, everybody has something unique to bring to the table. I'm eager to see who'll be the new leaders in season 2009.

I use a somewhat different yardstick to measure consistency than results., tho' of course that is a factor too. I remember tho' that sometimes the results are achieved by who skates less poorly than anyone else in the competition on that day.

The yardstick I use is how consistent they are within their own results as well. Without going back to check stats from the last 3 or 4 seasons, for that reason I think Evan qualifies as one of the most consistent as his scores compared to his own are always within the same range - and, more importantly rising!

Add to that his determination to improve and his work with Tarasova this summer, I think we'll see his level go up yet another notch, which makes him a contender on his own strength and mental toughness, imo, and not dependent on other to make mistakes.

There's no question it's a very deep men's field with lots of question marks this season. Both Joubert and Takahashi have had mental issues and resultant lower scores, even tho' they have taken the top prize anyway. All have had health/injury issues, many of which I lay to the demands of the CoPs judging requirements.

As they've also got their sights set on Vancouver in 2010, many have made sweeping changes to get better. Will be fun to see how the season unfolds and which of the crop will be like the cream and rise to the top. Fans everywhere are in for a treat and a great ride.

Let the season begin!!


I'm really looking forward to watching the men this year. Should be a season of some really great skating.

 

[antmanb]

I agree it's dumb, but so long as it's the rule, skaters should take it into account and perform accordingly. BTW, Plushenko's only loss under CoP happened under similar circumastances, didn't it? (Joubert beat him at 2004 Euros but that was an expanded-panel 6.0)

I can't remember that one but i do remember the GPF that Sandhu won because of the extra combination that Plushenko did - was that the first year that COP came in?

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

I can't remember that one but i do remember the GPF that Sandhu won because of the extra combination that Plushenko did - was that the first year that COP came in?

Yes, I checked after posting, and that's when it happened. To make the same mistake with CoP in its fifth year is just a shame.