Michelle Should Have Won Bronze!!

[millie]

The most successful figure skater of all time was Sonja Henie. That sport began in earnest in about 1900 and was discontinued in the early 1990s. In the sport of figure skating, you won championships and medals by tracing more accurate figures in the ice than anyone else.

The next phase I suppose could be called "performance skating." Over the last dozen years or so, you won by skating more beautifully than anyone else. Of course "beautiful skating" included beautiful technique on jumps, spins and moves in the field, as well as artistry, musicality and the ability to draw in the audience. Michelle Kwan was the outstanding athlete of this era.

At first I did not expect that the new judging system would have much effect on the sport. But these discussions have made me wonder if we really are entering a new era. Under CoP scoring, you win by amassing more points than anyone else. This absolutely is a paradigm shift.

People will do whatever they are rewarded for. Accruing points by itself does not preclude beautiful skating. For that matter, the CoP does not prevent you from going out there and tracing figures. But you won't win that way, as you did in the past.

So I am left with a lot of questions about the direction the sport is about to take. Will it go the way of gymnastics? Will the new judging system help or hurt skating's popularity? Will it provide incentive and opportunity for a resurgence of pro and show skating as an alternative?

Mathman

Figure skating has changed over the years, from the way Sonja Henie skated to the way Michelle Kwan skated. The sport of figure has changed from doings figures to beautiful skating and now to codes of points. The figure skaters adapted over the years to changes. and changes are inevitable. Sonja Henie skated the best he could do at the time. Times have changed and now skaters have to adapt to changes. Do we want figure skating to go back to the way they were in the beginning or keep advancing? Skaters have the option to do the same old, same old or get with the new program. Probably fans felt the same way when figures changed to beautiful skating to biggger jumps, better spins and so. Probably in the future they will change this system to something better, but in the mean time we are going to have to live with the new system. Figure skating will live as long as skaters want to skate and skaters will skate as long as they can keep up with the times.

 

[gkelly]

People will do whatever they are rewarded for. Accruing points by itself does not preclude beautiful skating. For that matter, the CoP does not prevent you from going out there and tracing figures. But you won't win that way, as you did in the past.Mathman

Heh, I added a new abbreviation to my note taking this season, for "paragraph loop," since a couple of the guys at Skate America, Evan Lysacek among them, were doing them in their programs, although not really finishing the second circle. And then you had Jenny Kirk's "special figure" tracing a heart, but with her other toe in the ice.

These would just count as transitions. I wouldn't mind if it were an option to include something of the sort as another element and get points for it, although they would slow down the flow of the program.

 

[tannisming]

Yes Millie. I thank God figure skating is changing. I couldn't take much more of the way things were. It was so awful for so many years A real snooze factory, complete with crooked judging.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think the main purpose of Figure Skating is that it is a SPORT, and how a skater presents himself in that SPORT is what he does to the best of his ability. The contestant wants to win or the contestant should not be there. Unfortunately, it is a judging sport and that will lead to many disagreements among its fans (and judges).

Michelle Kwan, imo, will be a much talked about skater for years to come whether she wins medals or not. Also, imo, skaters who have won medals over her will be remembered for just that - not because of their contribution to artistic skating.

As for 2005 Worlds, I watched her skate a beautiful routine but one which was faulty. IMO, she placed off the podium correctly.

As for artistic endeavour in figure skating, I am one who prefers other sources of the fine arts.

Joe



Joe

 

[Kwanford Wife]

So I am left with a lot of questions about the direction the sport is about to take. Will it go the way of gymnastics? Will the new judging system help or hurt skating's popularity? Will it provide incentive and opportunity for a resurgence of pro and show skating as an alternative?

Mathman

As a fan, I could comment on the judging change in figure skating in terms of my fandom, but since I am a self-admitted uber ~ my opinion on that is redundant... MK will be fine & Yay for her...

But to contribute a different perspective to the conversation, I will give it from a PR professional who specializes in sports marketing and the business side concerning the future of LADIES figure skating... (most non-fans & casual fans think that men should stick to hockey if they want to ice skate.)

This isn't about quality of skating, but money. Period. Don't ever get the two confused when talking about the future of skating. People will always skate but without good coverage in the US, skating will never attract more fans in this country...

When I'm in promo meetings & we talk about who to approach for this campaign or that supplier, the only skater, both pro & amature, is MK... Tara was popular for a while, but she's not exactly camera friendly. Sarah could never get her management together & its impossible to get that group to focus on the financial aspect of skating. Sasha doesn't come up because she hasn't won a major title & having been around for so long without that elusive title, she's not exactly awe inspiring nor does she have the name recognition. Not to mention a Nancy Kerrigan image. But she's cute so if she wins, she'd probably get more endorsements...

We won't know how the general, Olympic watching public will react to the new judging system until the 2006 games. Why? Hard core fans understood why Sarah Hughes won. But we would've also understood if Irina or Michelle won. The general public would not. Just like with the drama about the pairs. They want to see the best (i.e. prettiest, cleanest) skater to win because they understand that. Just like in gymnastics. If someone skates a beautiful, clean program of level 1 elements but someone goes out & does a technically difficult program with falls or sloppy movements & wins ~ skating will be screwed. I don't care who it is. Period.

The idea of who is best on that night & who actually wins will determine the future of skating. Because figure skating is based on olympic results. Michelle Kwan is anmolity in terms of her name recognition & reputation. Kinda like Tiger Woods (another exception to the rule) in that even when she loses, the general public assumes she won.

To illustrate this point about being an exception here is a view of skating, based on extensive market research with a non-skating fans is the following:

1. The judging is rigged & the sport political & dirty. (not knowing who the judges are doesn't add to the intergirty.)

2. Its not a real sport because it is viewed as an elitist activity & boring. (which I think applies more to golf but whatever...)

3. Exposure & tv coverage in the US is spotty & not done in a serious manner by the sports media.

4. Men don't get it & view it as a chick sport with the only "real" athlete being MK (again, name recognition)

5. The athletes don't differentiate themselves from each other to establish their own personality. They all are interchangable, thus less marketable. (Irina should move to the US, she'd make a killing)

Here's another view... The US female skaters average, non-skating fans could name where: MK, Sarah, Tara, Tonya & Nancy, Kristi, Hamell & Peggy.

(When we did this study, 78% thought that MK won the '94 & '98 olympic medal. 36% thought she also won in '02 because the news media covered her losing twice as much as Sarah winning.)

I post this because consumers don't buy what they can't understand. Do I mean that MK should be given gold just because we marketers can sell her? Absolutely not. But for the point of this discussion about the future of skating, I think we need to at least be aware of the business side of figure skating as well as the "sport" side. Fans want to see a 3/3 but business wants to see good tv ratings, consumer tie-ins and the dollars... Anonomous judging & new, complicated systems don't help this... Its complicated and doesn't invite tabloid coverage.

This is why gymnastics suffers because there isn't a lot of outside money to be made. Seen Carly or the Hamm brothers lately?

So I guess my point is this: enjoy the sport and all the drama but don't expect it to ever reach its '94 - '02 popularity. Tonya Harding was the best thing & the worse thing to happen to skating.The money era is over and I doubt that we will ever experience that again ~ and the CoP won't help.

Kwanford Wife

 

[Mathman]

Very well said, Millie. Times change and figure skating, like anything else, has to grow or stagnate. Despite a certain amount of small-spirited gloating on this thread, I think everyone is in agreement about that.

Gkelly, I once saw Victor Petrenko do a show program where he stopped in the middle and did an iron cross. It was a good thing that Dick Button was commentating, because we were all saying, what in the world is he doing out there?

Mathman

 

[emma]

But you know what? I do understand what the anti-whores are talking about. It wasn't only Michelle who complained at the beginning of the season that the CoP was forcing her to compromise the artistic integrity of her programs.

Lori Nichol, speaking particularly about Fumie, says, "I am a fan of some aspects of the [new judging] system, but right now there is less freedom and it is limiting;...it's not choreography anymore, it's become a skill of arrangement and it's like painting by numbers in a straitjacket."

Audry Weisiger, speaking about Yoshie Onda, says, "[W]e've been working on the value of the performance versus just doing the tricks."

To me, that was the biggest disappointment of this Worlds. I did not see many performances that had artistic value. (Thank goodness for Jeff Buttle!) Figure skating is not skiing downhill against a stopwatch.

Maybe Michelle and like-minded performers will decide to "go pro" after all. I can see that happening. Take the three cheesefests as the basis of a pro-am circuit, and see what form of the sport is more popular.

Mathman

I realize that there are like two pages on this thread I haven't gotten to yet...so if I'm repeating what someone else said, i'm sorry. But...here goes. I think that I agree with DG and hikaru, and thus am slightly disagreeing with MM. I understand what you just said from the Nichols and other quotes, but I can't help but wonder if, as long term experts in 6.0 system, they are just struggling, as is only natural, to have the new system feel to them as natural/intuitive as the old...that is, I suspect with experience they may not only internalize the new system and work well with it, but come to appreciate some of its possibilities (and I stresss possibilities, cuz so much is what we make of the structures given to us or even forced upon us). Said another way, maybe they just have to think in ways ...explicit ways...that they haven't had to for years and years; that is a struggle, but I don't (yet, at least) feel that the result is necessarily less artistry as the excellent examples of Weir and Buttle show us.

I also don't think that the new system inherently makes for better artistry as the comments about point whoring attest (and this despite a lot of talk about how this brings out the total package)...but for me at least, it makes the sport exciting (in the moving up and down the standings), and in a way, despite my own struggles in understanding the new system, I almost feel like I could really understand scores now in a way i think i never did before (it was hard to get the placements, for me at least, particularly when you didn't see everyone in all of the flights).

Now, I'm also not sure that the apparent lack of artistry at this worlds was unique to this worlds and thus a result of the new scoring system. I really would have to review old competitions, but seems to me that some were jumping contests, others were heart renching emotional contests, others were combinations of those...etc. I'm wondering if part of the let down some of else felt this year was that there was a lot of NOT clean skating, a bunch of commentary distractions, and a lot of let down with the injuries/withdrawls.

Lastly...I would simply LOVE, love, Love, LOVE, to know what Kwan had planned on paper (or verbally) for this competition and why (and that is just my uber Kwan fan desire to have inside knowledge), and it would be interesting to know that of others too and then compare what happened. NOW i get that that WON"T happen cuz surely part of strategy is to not reveal...but here's to fantasy!

 

[Mathman]

Kwanfordwife, thank you so much for that perspective. That is what I was trying to hint at before. The small little knot of figure skating fans seems to have no idea of what's really going on. I didn't want to come right out and say it, but in this world championship, thanks to the CoP, the boys were prettier than the girls. I have to wonder about the marketing consequences of this state of affairs.

But what do you think about this? Michelle says, OK, all good things must come to an end, I'm out of here. Then she takes over the three made for TV competitions (The Marshall's, Cambell's soup, etc., shows) and turns them into a semi-serious pro-am grand slam series, with some kind of final showdown at the end. These events already offer the biggest purses, they are already the only events besides U.S. Nationals that are shown on major network TV, and unlike the grand prix series, they are able to attract the biggest names. From a marketing perspective, do you think that would fly?

The further advantage is that this would give Michelle something to do that she could really sink her teeth into, instead of just hanging around to see if maybe someone will give her another medal. Medals are very important to youngsters, but Michelle is 24 now.

I just so wish that there were an alternative to the ISU way of doing business.

Mathman

 

[show 42]

Excellent, Kwanford...........42

 

[emma]

Kwanfordwife, thank you so much for that perspective. That is what I was trying to hint at before. The small little knot of figure skating fans seems to have no idea of what's really going on. I didn't want to come right out and say it, but in this world championship, thanks to the CoP, the boys were prettier than the girls. I have to wonder about the marketing consequences of this state of affairs.

See, MM, i'm not disagreeing with you to be beligerant. I've lurked here for a long time before first posting and really, really like and learn from your posts. But, from my perspective, the "pretty" boys were doing 'pretty' skating before COP (weir, buttle, even Sandu, etc.); they got good placements only partly because of being pretty; we have to remember that Plushy withdrew (and broke my heart, i feel for him)! We have to remember that Joubert, the manly skater, imploded (god, i still feel bad for him); Li, whose scores I was confused about, did have errors (that I picked up on later)....Lambiel...among the pretty cuz he spins good, did some kick butt quads (so he gets some manly points too). I hear your concern about marketing and loved that post that explained that issue well, but I still am not ready to blame COP for this.

Now...i know nothing about marketing...and clearly if we want to view more skating, and have skating financially supported that is important in the economic contexts we live in; again, I'm just not convinced CoP is the problem because i'm not convinced its making men seem girly (again, plenty of manly men skaters who just didn't do well or didn't do period this time).

On another note: Soogar, I take issue (respectfully) with the idea that men embraced the CoP because they are stronger...sorry, i just don't buy that as an explanation, partly cuz not all or even many did this; and some of the women clearly did do it (like seguri and shiz) but made mistakes. And...i'm not linking in my head MM's comments and Soogars...just responding to both.

And just generally, i don't agree that CoP will be the end of beautiful level one moves....they can as someone noted get points via GOE, and they can also impact the score for transitions and interpretation if used appropriately.

Finally...i promise...the thread, about Michelle...ok, I agree with all of those that said no she shouldn't have been bronze....I get that, and given her falls and how close she was to bronze, I guess here i see some of MM concern again about perception of skating and marketing...all i can say again here is I really don't know anything about marketing (but understand now MM that I should be concerned about it if i'm concerned about skating).

 

[Mathman]

Hi Emma, don't mind my grouchy old rambling. I agree with you that the CoP is not to blame for anything. I hope it works out, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't. I do think that we will continue to see performances that will raise our spirits and touch our hearts, like Shen and Zhou's Turandot and Michelle's East of Eden.

For that matter, Irina's LP performance at Moscow was just as thrilling in its own way.

MM

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Kwanfordwife, thank you so much for that perspective. That is what I was trying to hint at before. The small little knot of figure skating fans seems to have no idea of what's really going on. I didn't want to come right out and say it, but in this world championship, thanks to the CoP, the boys were prettier than the girls. I have to wonder about the marketing consequences of this state of affairs.

But what do you think about this? Michelle says, OK, all good things must come to an end, I'm out of here. Then she takes over the three made for TV competitions (The Marshall's, Cambell's soup, etc., shows) and turns them into a semi-serious pro-am grand slam series, with some kind of final showdown at the end. These events already offer the biggest purses, they are already the only events besides U.S. Nationals that are shown on major network TV, and unlike the grand prix series, they are able to attract the biggest names. From a marketing perspective, do you think that would fly?

The further advantage is that this would give Michelle something to do that she could really sink her teeth into, instead of just hanging around to see if maybe someone will give her another medal. Medals are very important to youngsters, but Michelle is 24 now.

I just so wish that there were an alternative to the ISU way of doing business.

Mathman

Mathman, you are one smart cookie... That is awesome...
Hmmm... this is a good idea... She's a good business woman and even more important, she's ambitious. She's already got the ice rink that her dad owns. Name recognition. The complete collection. A fan base that will totally lose interest in this sport because they aren't necessarily skating fans, but Michelle Kwan fans. She's got the crediablity to do a show & do cheorgraphy/coach little people. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if she's already been tapped as the next Peggie Fleming.

A pro-am tour with Michelle vs. the youngins? That would be hot!!! Can you imagine if she implimented the CoP scoring system to a Pro-Am??? (The pros would wipe these jumpers on the floor with footwork alone...)

As for the men... What can I say? Men's figure skating is hard to define. But I can tell you that in this country ~ Brian Botiano & Scott Hamilton are probably the most well known men but that's based on their personality, or rather in-spite of their skating instead of because of their skating. Timmy is like that because of his jumps. Would you say that about Johnny Weir? He still needs to develop a specific personality.

Its funny in a way, because I wonder what figure skating will look like in 5 years. That's the problem with the CoP... it made a relaxing, favorite sport of mine into something complicated. If the hardcore fans can't understand it, what makes the ISU think that the general public is going to understand it? And it shouldn't be that hard.

Back to the original topic regarding Michelle Kwan not winning the broze medal, I will say this: I don't think its the system, but the skate.

I, too thank God for the CoP system because with that qualifying round at worlds, she would've finished lower under the 6.0. It was a bad skate. In ten years, she's had what? Three really bad skates in '97, '02 and '05? We should cut her some slack & get on with! I just don't get it. Are we only supposed to be happy when she wins? Is she not allowed to lose? People are harsh.

The ironic thing is that if skating fans really wanted this sport to get popular again, with a lot of positive media attention, we would all be rooting for her to win in 2006 to Bolero. There would be so much money, opportunity and positive spin for figure skating. This country loves an Olympic Moment and what could be more Olympic than Michelle Kwan finally wining that elusive gold medal... and then she retires & the coffers are full & the young girls can begin their olympic cycle... Good legacy for all...

Kwanford Wife

 

[mzheng]

Kwanford Wife. Just want to say love, love your two posts.

 

[LegalGirl82]

Its funny in a way, because I wonder what figure skating will look like in 5 years. That's the problem with the CoP... it made a relaxing, favorite sport of mine into something complicated. If the hardcore fans can't understand it, what makes the ISU think that the general public is going to understand it? And it shouldn't be that hard.

Back to the original topic regarding Michelle Kwan not winning the broze medal, I will say this: I don't think its the system, but the skate.

I, too thank God for the CoP system because with that qualifying round at worlds, she would've finished lower under the 6.0. It was a bad skate. In ten years, she's had what? Three really bad skates in '97, '02 and '05? We should cut her some slack & get on with! I just don't get it. Are we only supposed to be happy when she wins? Is she not allowed to lose? People are harsh.

Kwanford Wife

Kwanford Wife, ITA. Also, she just missed the podium. It was a squeaker that just didn't go in her favor.

 

[Kuchana]

Yes Millie. I thank God figure skating is changing. I couldn't take much more of the way things were. It was so awful for so many years A real snooze factory, complete with crooked judging.

No offence but I don't think that has changed either in reference to the crooked judging. It's too subjective and don't forget anonymous to boot.

 

[Kuchana]

I was told right after the National that the Worlds is not that important to her now that she won the #9 US title. It was very important to her (not only in the sense of record tieing, there is other reason you might see at coming May in disscussion board). Now the worlds result shows. But I don't expect an off podium finish, IMO, neither team Kwan. Now she should know where she stands under the CoP.

I can understand why she would want to tie Vinson's record but why did she not focus on Worlds afterwards? Wait. What is the other reason why she would want to win her 9th U.S. title? And this discussion will come up in May on the board??? Do you know something that we don't?

It seems to me that she didn't take this year seriously after Nationals despite how she and Rafael told the press that she was taking careful note of the COP system. Compared to how she performed at Dortmund where she messed up in her qual and came back strong in both short and long, her competitive drive was lacking at Moscow. I'm concerned because she's not taken the quals seriously 2 years as a row and has suffered the consequences each time.

 

[Doggygirl]

Very interesting market research data, Kwanford wife...

Sad news, but I have to admit I'm not surprised. And now that ABC is no longer covering many (any?) events, it gets even worse.

Since this is your field, I'd love your feedback on this question.

It seems there is very extensive figure skating TV coverage in Europe via Eurosport and Raisport and others. What do you see as different in that market? Is figure skating that much more popular there, or is there something different about the business side, how the $$ add up, etc. to make it worth while for more coverage with similar popularity to the US?

Inquiring minds (well, at least this one LOL) want to know!!

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can not go for that tieing Vinson as more important than the preOlympic Worlds. If the Worlds was not important, she could have at least tried a 3x3 and see how it ups the score.

The problem with MK and the Worlds is that she didn't skate sub-par, she lacked the new standard of winning Worlds. The big question now is what is her strategy?

Joe

 

[lavender]

Mathman, you are one smart cookie... That is awesome...
Hmmm... this is a good idea... She's a good business woman and even more important, she's ambitious. She's already got the ice rink that her dad owns. Name recognition. The complete collection. A fan base that will totally lose interest in this sport because they aren't necessarily skating fans, but Michelle Kwan fans. She's got the crediablity to do a show & do cheorgraphy/coach little people. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if she's already been tapped as the next Peggie Fleming.

A pro-am tour with Michelle vs. the youngins? That would be hot!!! Can you imagine if she implimented the CoP scoring system to a Pro-Am??? (The pros would wipe these jumpers on the floor with footwork alone...)

As for the men... What can I say? Men's figure skating is hard to define. But I can tell you that in this country ~ Brian Botiano & Scott Hamilton are probably the most well known men but that's based on their personality, or rather in-spite of their skating instead of because of their skating. Timmy is like that because of his jumps. Would you say that about Johnny Weir? He still needs to develop a specific personality.

Its funny in a way, because I wonder what figure skating will look like in 5 years. That's the problem with the CoP... it made a relaxing, favorite sport of mine into something complicated. If the hardcore fans can't understand it, what makes the ISU think that the general public is going to understand it? And it shouldn't be that hard.

Back to the original topic regarding Michelle Kwan not winning the broze medal, I will say this: I don't think its the system, but the skate.

I, too thank God for the CoP system because with that qualifying round at worlds, she would've finished lower under the 6.0. It was a bad skate. In ten years, she's had what? Three really bad skates in '97, '02 and '05? We should cut her some slack & get on with! I just don't get it. Are we only supposed to be happy when she wins? Is she not allowed to lose? People are harsh.

The ironic thing is that if skating fans really wanted this sport to get popular again, with a lot of positive media attention, we would all be rooting for her to win in 2006 to Bolero. There would be so much money, opportunity and positive spin for figure skating. This country loves an Olympic Moment and what could be more Olympic than Michelle Kwan finally wining that elusive gold medal... and then she retires & the coffers are full & the young girls can begin their olympic cycle... Good legacy for all...

Kwanford Wife

Good post.

 

[mzheng]

It seems to me that she didn't take this year seriously after Nationals despite how she and Rafael told the press that she was taking careful note of the COP system. Compared to how she performed at Dortmund where she messed up in her qual and came back strong in both short and long, her competitive drive was lacking at Moscow. I'm concerned because she's not taken the quals seriously 2 years as a row and has suffered the consequences each time.

You can't say she and Rafael did not take the note of the CoP. She did upgrade the level of several spins, spirals, and add one more comb like 3/2/2, and changed program dramatically at least with the jump lay out. All in two monthes.

Nop, there was big difference between two qual rounds. She diddn't take too seriously in Dortmund. But in Mosco she was all too serious, I GUESS the sudden realize that she was first time standing in front of the CoP judges might unraved her a little mentally, but there was another reason (I weren't elebrate it here in case sounds like make excuse for her, that's the last thing she needed at here) I heard shortly after the Qual, which she has no control with....What's done is done. She'll move on ....