Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin

[Meoima]

My proposal is that judges limiting the +GOE they give out, and punish more because poor execute elements happen more often than beautiful executed elements. By making the negativity more of a compulsory, scores can be significantly lower.

Same as 6.0 time, during figure, no one ever got maximum figure points because the rules were to deduce, not to reward.

For example: Your BV is 90, but in real competition you have some mistakes, your TES has become lower, like 85 or 80... So only when you perform all the element well and clean, you can get that full 90 points.

As for the transitions before jumps, count them in the TR and CH in PCS, not in GOE.

 

[Sandpiper]

I don't see what's the problem. From what I'm seeing...

1) If the top skaters (Yuzuru, Patrick, Javier, Denis) skate anywhere close to clean, Boyang will lose against them
2) If the top skaters make quite a few mistakes, and Boyang skates clean/near clean, he could/would/should-under-the-current-rules win
3) If the top skaters splat and Boyang also splats, he still loses (basically what happened at CoC)

Seems fair enough to me.

From what I understand, Mishin is posing the question, what if 2) happens? Do we hand the medal to Boyang, or do we change the rules to make sure that a more "well-rounded" skater wins no matter what? Well, I'm personally fine handing the medal to Boyang. If the so-called well-rounded skaters can't deliver on the night, that's too bad. If your jumps are missing, you didn't exactly display your "well-rounded-ness" on the competition ice.

Not to mention, as Mrs. P pointed out, Boyang's strategy is quite risky. I know he seems fine right now, but last season, his quads were a bit "Yeah, it's coming. Trust me, this time it'll hit!" (though I was quite impressed when they actually did hit during Jr. Worlds). It would take a perfect storm for him to skate well while multiple top skaters falter--and if it happens, so be it. Is Boyang so offensive to some that they'd prefer someone else's meltdown to his best? And on the extremely unlikely possibility that Boyang maintains high tech and consistency... then hurray for him and hurray for the sport, I say.

Personally, I hope Boyang will develop more of a personal identity on the ice. Not necessarily "artistry"--just programs that suit him, seem unique to him, or showcase some of his personality. And speed, speed, speed. I think these things (and care taken to avoid injury, of course) would really help him go from "midpack skater with amazing jumps" to top contender.

 

[Mrs. P]

Yes, using the Jason/Boyang scenario from 2012, yes Boyang won due to his TES (3A in the SP, two 3As and a quad in the FS, including one in the FS), but he still only won by about 9 points which is sort of crazy considering that Jason, who didn't even have a 3A to begin with (let alone a quad, obviously), basically biffed his spins in the SP (which we all know is not a common occurance), got called on every one of his flutzes and had three under rotations in the FS.

The system, as it stands, does want a well balanced skater. I don't think there is a gloom and doom situation for well-balanced skaters here. Wasn't it yesterday (as in two weeks ago) that some were grumbling that Patrick won Skate Canada with only 1 quad and 1 3A while Yuzuru had 2 quads and two 3As and a bunch of hard combos in the second half?

I think that's a sign that the system isn't weighted one way or another.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The system is unbalanced.

Image it, you can never reach 100 PCS. But you can reach 120 TES. then in that case it really looks unbalance because PCS you have maxed it out but TES you can go further. There is no higher 100 for PCS, but there is higher for TES. So the system need to be adjusted.

Either you lower the GOE in general, to lower the TES, or you adjust so PCS will become 1:1 more with the TES.

Jin's technical ability is crazy and something we have never seen before. I don't think the system should be adjusted to his potential when it might be decades before skaters are routinely doing three different quads.

 

[Meoima]

Jin's technical ability is crazy and something we have never seen before. I don't think the system should be adjusted to his potential when it might be decades before skaters are routinely doing three different quads.

You don't understand the problem. The problem is not Boyang himself. The problem is the loophole he and his coaches have been using. Will there be more skaters like him in the near future? Wll there be skaters who just go out and jump and call it a day?

Mishin and even the Italian Eurosport commentators are saying the same thing, do you think the balance between TES and PCS will soon be in danger because of the loophole that you can exploit the BV as much as you can, regardless of the quality of the elements you execute? Or is it because the way judges have been giving out PCS is the issue?

Which cause the unbalance if the unbalance situation happens?

 

[Sandpiper]

You don't understand the problem. The problem is not Boyang himself. The problem is the loophole he and his coaches have been using. Mishin and even the Italian Eurosport commentators are saying the same thing, do you think the balance between TES and PCS will soon be in danger because of the loophole that you can exploit the BV as much as you can. Or is it because the way judges are giving out PCS is the issue?
Which cause the unbalance if the unbalance situation happens?

Boyang is one person. One person who hasn't even unseated a shaky Javi yet. (And as much as I dislike his LP, had he skated it perfectly, I'd have no problems with him beating Javi that night).

I'm not seeing unbalance here--if anything, I thought Chan's 190 at SC was more unbalanced. *dodges pitchforks*

 

[UnChosen]

The system is unbalanced.

Image it, you can never reach 100 PCS. But you can reach 120 TES. then in that case it really looks unbalance because PCS you have maxed it out but TES you can go further. There is no higher 100 for PCS, but there is higher for TES. So the system need to be adjusted.

Either you lower the GOE in general, to lower the TES, or you adjust so PCS will become 1:1 more with the TES.

Getting near 100 PCS is easier and far more consistent than getting 100+ TES, especially though BV and not GOE. You earn it once and you practically always get near that score no matter how poorly you perform.

Why should something guaranteed be worth the same as extremely risky elements?

If anything the system is unbalanced toward PCS, trying to earn points through BV already get skaters triple punished though higher fall risk, lower chance of high GOE, and maybe lower PCS scores.

Just look at how Hanyu burned himself out at SC and started making mistakes and end up losing the FS to Chan's one quad one 3A program.

 

[alia jackson]

.....Patrick won Skate Canada with only 1 quad and 1 3A while Yuzuru had 2 quads and two 3As and a bunch of hard combos in the second half?

It was actually 3 quads and two 3As.

 

[qwertyskates]

You don't understand the problem. The problem is not Boyang himself. The problem is the loophole he and his coaches have been using. Will there be more skaters like him in the near future? Wll there be skaters who just go out and jump and call it a day?

Mishin and even the Italian Eurosport commentators are saying the same thing, do you think the balance between TES and PCS will soon be in danger because of the loophole that you can exploit the BV as much as you can, regardless of the quality of the elements you execute? Or is it because the way judges have been giving out PCS is the issue?

Which cause the unbalance if the unbalance situation happens?

This is not a "loophole", these are the rules of CoP, Jin didn't cheat, he happened to be exceptional in TES. You can say the same about Jason, he is exceptionally strong in PCS, however, he is among the weakest in the top tier with his TES, especially the jumps. No one is accusing Jason and his coach of taking advantage of a "loophole" in catapulting himself ahead of other better TES-PCS balanced skaters with his unusually high PCS which is lopsided compared to his TES.

Say if Jason starts winning the top tier skaters, with super high PCS, do we start talking about lowering PCS and upping TES for him? We accept that he plays by the rules, he manages exceptional PCS even with weak jumps, we let him continue to train and to try, we don't start talking about changing the goalpost so that he will never get close enough to win gold.

Tbh, no one else except Yuzuru can match Jin's jumps, so I wouldn't say it is a devastating trend. You will always find athletes at both extremes, it is difficult for either Jason or Jin to win Gold at World's or the Olympics, unless both catch up on their weaknesses, and if they do to the point that they are excellent at both TES and PCS, then both deserve equally to win over the current top tier, who are exceptionally strong in both TES and PCS.

If you simply don't like a particular skater's style, it might be tempting to be agitated that he might win over your favourites, but no matter, the playing field must always be fair, or a lot of fans and athletes will be completely turned off.

If the Chinese media hear of this, and if they shine a light on this talking of "fixing" the system because of the "possibility" of Jin winning, I'm afraid it will send a negative message to the Chinese skaters and their fans.

 

[Meoima]

Getting near 100 PCS is easier and far more consistent than getting 100+ TES, especially though BV and not GOE. You earn it once and you practically always get near that score no matter how poorly you perform.

Why should something guaranteed be worth the same as extremely risky elements?

If anything the system is unbalanced toward PCS, trying to earn points through BV already get skaters triple punished though higher fall risk, lower chance of high GOE, and maybe lower PCS scores.

Just look at how Hanyu burned himself out at SC and started making mistakes and end up losing the FS to Chan's one quad one 3A program.

and

This is not a "loophole", these are the rules of CoP, Jin didn't cheat, he happened to be exceptional in TES. You can say the same about Jason, he is exceptionally strong in PCS, however, he is among the weakest in the top tier with his TES, especially the jumps. No one is accusing Jason and his coach of taking advantage of a "loophole" in catapulting himself ahead of other better TES-PCS balanced skaters with his unusually high PCS which is lopsided compared to his TES.

Say if Jason starts winning the top tier skaters, with super high PCS, do we start talking about lowering PCS and upping TES for him? We accept that he plays by the rules, he manages exceptional PCS even with weak jumps, we let him continue to train and to try, we don't start talking about changing the goalpost so that he will never get close enough to win gold

Tbh, no one else except Yuzuru can match Jin's jumps, so I wouldn't say it is a devastating trend. You will always find athletes at both extremes, it is difficult for either Jason or Jin to win Gold at World's or the Olympics, unless both catch up on their weaknesses, and if they do to the point that they are excellent at both TES and PCS, then both deserve equally to win over the current top tier, who are exceptionally strong in both TES and PCS.

When I say TES and PCS are unbalance does not mean I think PCS should be higher. But there should be adjust in both TES and PCS. I have said there are 2 ways, either you adjust PCS, or you adjust the TES.

The issue is when unbalance happens, some skater can always neglect PCS part, and use TES as the main vehicle, there goes SS and Spin, posture, choreography...etc

And contrary, when PCS is taken for granted (which has always happened), skaters can always stay the same from season to season and never care to upgrade their layout, in this case they're resting on their GOE and PCS.

If judge correctly, getting near 100 PCS is not easy at all (if judges don't abuse favoritism too much).

If judges are less generous, then getting 85 PCS is hard, let alone 90.

So my proposal is to limiting the TES by only giving out deductions, by so PCS will be lower as well (TES is down mean PCS will be down too). If you look at it, scores are inflated when judges are allowed to reward (too much).

 

[qwertyskates]

and



When I say TES and PCS are unbalance does not mean I think PCS should be higher. But there should be adjust in both TES and PCS. I have said there are 2 ways, either you adjust PCS, or you adjust the TES.

The issue is when unbalance happens, some skater can always neglect PCS part, and use TES as the main vehicle, there goes SS and Spin, posture, choreography...etc

And contrary, when PCS is taken for granted (which has always happened), skaters can always stay the same from season to season and never care to upgrade their layout, in this case they're resting on their GOE and PCS.

If judge correctly, getting near 100 PCS is not easy at all (if judges don't abuse favoritism too much).

If judges are less generous, then getting 85 PCS is hard, let alone 90.

So my proposal is to limiting the TES by only giving out deductions, by so PCS will be lower as well (TES is down mean PCS will be down too). If you look at it, scores are inflated when judges are allowed to reward (too much).

How do you mean by "unbalance"?

What about if people start talking about how unbalance it is that a skater can win with no 3A or quads?

At the moment, Jin is disadvantaged by his low PCS, even with his great jumps, he is still a long way with catching up with skaters like Jason and Shoma. His SP shows great StepSequence, so he is not without significant skills. He has also been on the podium at JGPF, he is simply no slouch. However, he can beat Jason and Shoma by improving his PCS, and if he does, doesn't he deserve to win? Jason and Shoma can continue to improve in either TES and PCS to stay ahead of Jin. Isn't this what a competition is about? Each athlete brings their best game to the table. Jason knows his TES must get to a certain level to have a shot at beating Chan, Yuzuru and Javier too. Imagine people start talking about lowering PCS so he has to work even harder at PCS to nullify his PCS advantage, not merely working on his TES. This is just unfair to any athlete.

No matter, judges must judge fairly, if Jin jumped like his FS, his GOEs suffer, deservedly. But if his skating becomes consistently good like his SP and getting better, (I personally think it will be *very difficult* for Jin (or any skater) to manage in FS to skate well, not run out of steam like he did at CoC and with 4 clean quads) I think yes, he deserves to win in a couple of years, not unlike how Yuzuru shot to the top.

 

[Meoima]

BLA BLA BLA

I talk about the whole system in general, that I feel there is something unbalanced in the scoring for both TES and PCS.

And you keep taking about Boyang Jin. Do you need to recheck my post, or my English is too bad you don't understand what I am talking about?

 

[andromache]

Right now the system seems to be working, so I don't have much to say. But when the day comes when the men are routinely breaking 100, it means the system has become unbalanced. PCS has a ceiling, and the PCS ceiling should be the same as the theoretical TES ceiling from discipline to discipline. It doesn't matter to me whether one "breaks the TES ceiling" through quantity, quality, or a combination of both.

When the men start to regularly break 100 in TES, all the ISU has to do is change the factoring of PCS to reflect whatever new threshold number is established for TES. So hypothetical: top TES men regularly receive TES scores slightly over 100. Assume the new TES ceiling is 110. Make the new PCS ceiling 110. This means that the more "artistic" skaters attributes are not being undervalued relative to TES.

ETA: These discussions make me miss 6.0 . There's no "perfect balance" between TES and PCS when the numbers are counted in totally different ways. I don't believe there's any realistic to "count" PCS the way we do with BV and GOE for elements, there's no way to evaluate TES the way we do PCS without going back to what will basically amount to a 6.0-esque system, and I ultimately believe IJS is more fair than 6.0 in the way we score elements so I don't want to go back to that. But if PCS assumes a perfect score (which it does) then TES needs to implicitly assume one too, so that some sort of balance is maintained.

 

[qwertyskates]

I talk about the whole system in general, that I feel there is something not right in the scoring for both TES and PCS.

And you keep taking about Boyang Jin. Do you need to recheck my post, or my English is too bad you don't understand what I am talking about?

I never hear you talk like this about "unbalanced" TES-PCS until Jin came on and you have made it clear that you *do not like* his skating, in a very rude manner, words like "not an ounce of grace", "unpleasant to the eye", etc. a bit extreme, considering that he gets levels 4 for many components in the SP, not just his jumps.

 

[Meoima]

I never hear you talk like this about "unbalanced" TES-PCS until Jin came on and you have made it clear that you *do not like* his skating, in a very rude manner.

So, I do not like his skating does not mean all of my posts are attacking him. Boyang is just the first case who leads us to the idea that "system might be changed someday".

And Mishin, and the Europsort guys are talking about this possibility. And this possibility of adjusting TES and PCS to make it more effective is the idea I am talking about.

And you keep talking "You don't like Boyang" and ignore my proposal about a different way to give out scores while in fact in can benefit your favorite Boyang more than the current one.

 

[qwertyskates]

So, I do not like his skating does not mean all of my posts are attacking him. At this point maybe some English comprehension test can help you.

Boyang is just the first case who leads us to the idea that "system might be changed someday". And Mishin, and the Europsort guys are talking about this possibility. And this possibility of adjusting TES and PCS to make it more effective is the idea I am talking about.

And you keep talking about Boyang and ignore my proposal about a different way to give out scores while in fact in can benefit your favorite Boyang more than the current one.

"Benefit *my* favourite"? Do you even know who are *my favourits*? I don't even pretend to know yours.

You mean, by keeping things as they are, it is somehow "benefiting" Jin, "my favourite"? Good to see you finally admitting that you don't like Jin scoring high points, you feel like things being as they are will only "benefit" him.

Actually, I'm the one saying it is not right to shift the goalpost, that ALL skaters should be playing on a level field. It is unfair to any athlete that his strength causes people to talk about changing the goalposts.

You are saying let's change things because someone like Jin came along and is scoring too highly for your liking. I'm saying that is blatantly unfair to Jin. seeing something someone being unfairly treated = "benefiting my favourite", I think that in itself speaks volume about the mindset.

 

[Meoima]

"Benefit *my* favourite"? Do you even know who are *my favourits*? I don't even pretend to know yours.

You mean, by keeping things as they are, it is somehow "benefiting" Jin, "my favourite"? Good to see you finally admitting that you don't like Jin scoring high points, you feel like things being as they are will only "benefit" him.

Actually, I'm the one saying it is not right to shift the goalpost, that ALL skaters should be playing on a level field. It is unfair to any athlete that his strength causes people to talk about changing the goalposts.

Does this or this or this sound like bashing any skater to you?

At this point maybe some English comprehension tests can help you.

If you actually read my post, in fact my proposal is benefiting skaters like Jin more than skaters like Chan and Jason.

 

[qwertyskates]

Does this or this or this sound like bashing any skater to you?

At this point maybe some English comprehension tests can help you.

I don't have a problem understanding your English, I have a problem with understanding your logic, e.g., me [pointing out how shifting the goalpost because Jin appeared on the scene is unfair = "I want to benefit my favourite skater".

 

[qwertyskates]

Tbh, I really don't know if the Chinese sports media has picked up on this story, any idea from anyone?

 

[Meoima]

I don't have a problem understanding your English, I have a problem with understanding your logic, e.g., me [pointing out how shifting the goalpost because Jin appeared on the scene is unfair = "I want to benefit my favourite skater".

When you keep talking about Boyang while in fact the matter is not just about him, one can wonder maybe you only want to talk about him.

So you want to see only quantity or only quality or both? Do you want to look at the quantity alone and ignore the quality is good for the sport? Or ignore the quantity and keep the same low BV for years is better for the sport?

Both are unbalanced.

Right now the system seems to be working, so I don't have much to say. But when the day comes when the men are routinely breaking 100, it means the system has become unbalanced. PCS has a ceiling, and the PCS ceiling should be the same as the theoretical TES ceiling from discipline to discipline. It doesn't matter to me whether one "breaks the TES ceiling" through quantity, quality, or a combination of both.

Exactly what I am trying to say. PCS has a limit, but TES does not. So is there anyway to set limit for both which does not hinder the advance of the sport?

When the men start to regularly break 100 in TES, all the ISU has to do is change the factoring of PCS to reflect whatever new threshold number is established for TES. So hypothetical: top TES men regularly receive TES scores slightly over 100. Assume the new TES ceiling is 110. Make the new PCS ceiling 110. This means that the more "artistic" skaters attributes are not being undervalued relative to TES.

My proposal is simple, adjusting the TES so there will be no positive GOE. Top skaters with low BV but good quality can not (and should not) depend on their GOE and PCS for too long. They should choose to upgrade their BV or to skate as clean as possible and wait for skaters with higher BV to make mistake. And skater who have high BV but poor quality will spend more time on polishing their skills to get full BV of their layout, if they do not execute their layout with ease and flow, they can't take high BV for granted because poor execution will lead to more deductions.

if PCS assumes a perfect score (which it does) then TES needs to implicitly assume one too, so that some sort of balance is maintained.

:thumbsup: