Missing a Required Element in the Short Program (spoilers)

[Joesitz (RIP)]

mabye spoiler​

How serious is it? I was always under the impression that one had to do all the requirements or face severe penalties. Maybe it's a skater can not do anything but the required elements.

One male skater fell on a required jump in the SP of the GPF yet was able to maintain scores with skaters who skated clean.The skater in question skated very well otherwise.

It is not just in the LP that when there is a fall, the jumps still gets credit if the correct rotations are made. Does that apply to the SP, too?

(I still see no purpose served for the Short Program. Except for the required elements all the LP Rules apply, I believe.)

Joe

 

[netnuts]

mabye spoiler​

How serious is it? I was always under the impression that one had to do all the requirements or face severe penalties. Maybe it's a skater can not do anything but the required elements.

One male skater fell on a required jump in the SP of the GPF yet was able to maintain scores with skaters who skated clean.The skater in question skated very well otherwise.

It is not just in the LP that when there is a fall, the jumps still gets credit if the correct rotations are made. Does that apply to the SP, too?

(I still see no purpose served for the Short Program. Except for the required elements all the LP Rules apply, I believe.)

Joe

This is why CoP is a complete joke. Remember Lu Chen, she popped a 3lutz and singled 2A. Because of this, she was ranked 25 and could not even advance to the free skate at 1997 worlds under 6.0

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wqiwm0GMwGc

 

[Mathman]

As far as I can tell (from ISU document 1445, starting on page 8

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf )

the penalty for mistakes in required elements are all in the GOEs.

For instance for combos, if you do only one jump, that is an automatic -3 GOE (taken off the base value for the first jump).

Also, if one or more jumps do not have the required number of revolutions, that is an automatic -3 GOE. For instance, if you do a 3Lz+1T, I think you get base value for the two jumps (6.0+0.4 - 3.00 GOE = 3.4 for the element).

If you leave out the "required" element altogether, I don't think there is any penalty except that you get 0 credit in that box.

(Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.)

 

[redhotcoach]

If a short program element, such as the mandatory triple solo jump - is executed as a double ie 2f instead of 3f - the jump is given a -1 in the GOE, not a -3. (The judges on the panel will give it a -3.00 however, mathematically the deduction works out to just -1)

If the triple combo jump is done as a solo jump with a fall, then the jump is worth 4.50 with a -3.00 GOE .

Triple sal / 1Toe is calculated as 4.90 with a -3.00 GOE in the short.

There is no penalty for not performing the maximum number of jumps or spins in a LONG program -- just foolish because you are giving away points.

I've never seen someone forget an element in a short program, and have searched through quite a few protocols looking for an example -- but can't find one. Perhaps someone else will know the answer for that.

GOE deductions are greater on triples than on doubles and singles.....-3.00 vs -1.00 vs -.50 .

 

[enlight78]

It sounds like to me. Making a mistake on a required element is equal to a fall. And not doing it gives you nothing at all....It not Mao fault they didn't capitolize on her mistakes.

 

[Mathman]

Please don't post scores and other details from the Grand Prix Final in this folder. The competition will be shown on TV in the US next week and some readers want to remain "unspoiled" so they can watch it as a fresh competition.

There is lots of discussion going on in the Events folder, however. Join in!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

All these rules about failing to do a completed element in the SP really has no more penalties than if it were in the LP. Is that correct what I am reading?

Joe

 

[bekalc]

All these rules about failing to do a completed element in the SP really has no more penalties than if it were in the LP. Is that correct what I am reading?

Joe

No, if you single a jump in the long, you don't get -GOE.

 

[waxel]

Missing an ENTIRE element? Sorry. It should receive grave consequences. Yes, I guess another example of how ludicrous CoP truly is.

 

[chuckm]

If you pop a jump, you didn't do the jump, and you get 0 for that jump.

If you completely rotate the solo triple then fall on it, you get the value of the jump -3.00 GOE and a 1.00 deduction.

So it's better to fall on a fully rotated 3Z than to pop it. At least you net 2 points instead of 0. If you underrotate a jump and fall in the SP, you wind up with next to nothing.

 

[hockeyfan228]

If a short program element, such as the mandatory triple solo jump - is executed as a double ie 2f instead of 3f - the jump is given a -1 in the GOE, not a -3. (The judges on the panel will give it a -3.00 however, mathematically the deduction works out to just -1)

However, that is -1 points (from -3GOE) off of a base score for the 2F of 1.7, which means a net of .7 for the effort. For a fall on a rotated 3F, the total pont received is 5.5-3 less -1 fall deduction, for a net of 1.5. For a fall on a 2F, the skater receives a net of -.3.

For the combo, the skater receives a lot more credit -- a few points instead of less than one or -GOE, on the first jump, usually a triple, if it's rotated.

The deduction under 6.0 for a missing element was .5 from the technical score, but since the technical score was an aggregate as well as a placeholder, it's hard to know when the full .5 was deducted, or if more was by any given judge. How many times did a favorite miss a required element in the SP and get a technical score of 5.4 or 5.5, when that skater normally hardly received a technical score higher than 5.8 (with the pre score usually making the difference)?

 

[Tonichelle]

too. many. number.

*toni's brain implodes*

 

[waxel]

Are the protocols up? I don't see them on the ISU website. I'm just wondering what's up? All of Kimmie's jumps downgraded? And did I miss something? Didn't Mao totally omit the jump combination? Shouldn't that be a serious infraction- and yet she still has higher TES than Kimmie?

 

[feraina]

I think what it boils down to is this: because everything in CoP is quantified in terms of points gained, you can't penalize a skater more than the original worth of a botched/missed element, even when it is a supposedly "required" element in the SP. Plus you can easily make up lost points with other elements and also PCS. In the old 6.0 system, the required elements were really required, and there was a ceiling score (6.0, duh), so the penalty for missed/botched "required" elements were severe, and subtracted directly from the 6.0 -- and there was no way to compensate for those deductions under the technical elements score. The presentation score was ceilinged at 6.0, so they also couldn't help make up for the penalties very much.

Besides really penalizing mistakes on required elements, the old 6.0 system also increased the significance of the SP in terms of placements. If you were in the top 3 in the SP, then winning the LP automatically wins you the championship (and placing outside meant it would be really hard to do better than silver). But now, you can place last, but if all the scores were bunched together, you can easily come from behind and take first place anyway. *shrug* A waste of time to put on this show then, isn't it?

I think they should do away with the SP altogether if they don't significantly change other aspects of the CoP. I don't see what special purpose it serves. The original idea of the SP was that skaters have to demonstrate basic competence in some core areas/elements of figure skating -- you couldn't just fill the SP with things you are strong in and omit things you're less good in. But now with CoP, that's no longer true, so SP serves no more purpose. It's like an appetizer to a main course, but one that is very expensive and completely unfilling -- they put up this whole show and pretend that this SP somehow serves its own special purpose. But in reality, as we saw in the singles' event today, the cost of missing/botching required elements boiled down to insignificance -- the LP tomorrow will probably determine everything.

 

[waxel]

feraina, you'd seem to be right... what's the point in the SP? Perhaps there should be a penalty for omitting an element ... as there is for falling on a jump.

Ah, one more failing of CoP.

But how much of a future does our sport have anyway? Did you see the "crowd" in Torino??? I've seen poetry readings with greater turn out.

 

[bekalc]

Fereina, I disagree with you. I like the idea of a short program and a long program, I think that it will makes it better to see how a skater does in two programs.

Frankly, I think the best thing about COP is the fact that skaters can be 1.bunched together or 2. Develop a huge lead in the short.

I think the ability to build a huge lead in the short, is one of the reasons why people are willing to go for more risk in the short program. For example, Brian Joubert was totally rewarded for going for a 4/3 in his short program at last year's worlds.. All of the other men, either had a 3/3 downgraded, ro they fell, in reality Joubert was the only one to execute all of his elements cleanly and he had the most difficult elements! So, I liked the fact that Joubert earned a well deserved lead for it.

In other cases, what happens if several people skate around the same level in the short program. For example what if five people skate really well, shouldn't five people than have the opportunity to win. I think the strongest part of COP is this fact. If you skate lots better than everyone else, you can get a nice lead, if you don't skate lots better you won't get a nice lead.

 

[Bennett]

II think they should do away with the SP altogether if they don't significantly change other aspects of the CoP. I don't see what special purpose it serves. The original idea of the SP was that skaters have to demonstrate basic competence in some core areas/elements of figure skating -- you couldn't just fill the SP with things you are strong in and omit things you're less good in. But now with CoP, that's no longer true, so SP serves no more purpose. It's like an appetizer to a main course, but one that is very expensive and completely unfilling -- they put up this whole show and pretend that this SP somehow serves its own special purpose. But in reality, as we saw in the singles' event today, the cost of missing/botching required elements boiled down to insignificance -- the LP tomorrow will probably determine everything.

I do not want them to do away with the SP altogether because it's simply more exciting to see two than just one

But I agree that the purpose of having SP is getting a bit unclear especially because LP is no longer a free program at all.

 

[feraina]

I guess the SP especially annoys me at this competition because ESPN360 is carrying all the SP's, but only part of the LP's, and none of the ladies' LP. Or, rather... it's still not shown on espn.com's TV listing for espn360. But on espn360's player itself, it now says it will carry ISU Grand Prix Final at 1:50 PM, although there are several other items also scheduled for 2PM. Hurrah! I'm so happy I'll get to see this LIVE tomorrow.

 

[gsrossano]

I've never seen someone forget an element in a short program, and have searched through quite a few protocols looking for an example -- but can't find one. Perhaps someone else will know the answer for that.

There is no penalty for leaving out a permitted element, in any program under IJS. The skater simply gives up the scoring opportunity for that element and gets 0 for it.

Last weekend I was working on updating my database of IJS results and came across a pairs SP where the team left out the death spiral. Not a death spiral, no level, but 7 elements and no death spiral listed at all. This is the first time I recall seeing a short program with an element missing.

 

[feraina]

Sarah Meier received no level (and no credit) for her "required" flying sit spin in the SP of TEB.