My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

[elingrace4eva]

My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

For some reason, I have never enjoyed watching either Michelle or Sarah. (And no, it's not just because I'm a Sasha fan). This doesn't mean that I've ever disputed their gold medals for any competition, because they've always deserved to win, I just never found them particularly enjoyable to watch. People ask me why all the time, and I can never give a conclusive answer. I've figured it out.

With both of them, it comes down to the jumps. When Michelle Kwan lands a jump, it always looks like she is tentitive. It's the reason Tara Lipinski beat her in 1998. When Tara lands a jump, and when Sasha (sorry, I had to put that in) or Irina lands a jump, it's crisp, it's clean, and there's no question that it was a perfect, beautiful jump. With Michelle, she lands her jumps cleanly, and she skates with grace, but it always seems tentitive, and her landings lack attack. I don't like watching skaters when I'm afraid she might fall, even after the jump is landed.

As for Sarah, I have a problem with the way she takes off. She takes such a long time to set up each jump, and makes them look as if each one is the most difficult thing she ever had to do. I want jumps to look easy, not as if they are a laborous task, and Sarah doesn't make her jumps look easy.

It's not as if I think that either of these women are bad skaters, quite the contrary, I think that they are both extremely talented, and, obviously, two of the best in the world. But I just wondered if anyone else sees what I do, because sometimes I'm almost sick with worry when these two are skating.

Just my opinion,
Kat

 

[freshandclean]

re

I'm not disputing your opinion. However, IMO, it seems the reverse. It's strange to me that you fear that Michelle will fall when she is probably one of the most consistent skaters in the world. I also find it strange that you don't apply that to Sasha instead because it is she who is more inconsistent (as has been discussed extensively on all boards).

Michelle has, IMO, one of the strongest, cleanest jumping techniques. She has the same speed going in as going out. Her outflow is phenomenal. Sasha, on the other hand, doesn't land very well most of the time. It's been said that she lands on the wrong edge many times. Plus, what I don't like about her jumps is that her landings look "rough" many times. It always seems like she's fighting to keep her balance. Not to mention her flutz. But that's my opinion.

 

[elingrace4eva]

Re: re

I am nervous for Sasha because of her inconsistancy, but not because of the way she lands. I feel the exact opposite about her and Michelle, that Michelle looks rough in her landings, and that when Sasha DOES land her jumps (though I know that she is more inconsistant) she does so cleanly, and it doesn't look tentative.

Michelle is a better all around skater than Sasha because of her consistancy, but I think Sasha's technique is more refined. I skated for 9 years, and though I couldn't land triples, obviously, my landings looked more like Michelle's, where as Sasha's (and Tara's) take a lot more control and command.

Kat

 

[kwansong999]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

This is all IMO so im not trying to bash you or anything you wrote on purpose:

1. Actually I feel quite the opposite as you do. Michelle has great flow and a steady, secure, run-out edge out of all her jumps, especially this season. Her jumps are smaller than Irina's but they are definately bigger than sasha's and cover more ice.

2. Michelle never underrotes her jumps. She doesnt flutz. She doesnt telegraph.

3. I can see Irina landing clean jumps, but not Sasha. Already the girl is out because of the Flutz. She also has her consistency problem which is having people say: Ok, whats she going to screw up this time? I dont get a relaxed feeling with Sasha every time she launches herself in the air. Sasha also wobbles on her run-out edges when she lands. With Michelle i dont worry alot about her spins and her edge moves, unlike sasha.

4. Both Irina and Sasha LOVE to put their hardest jumps in the beginning. Sasha gets most if not all of her jumps in before the 2minute mark this season. Mk has a lutz planned after the 3min mark.

5. Sarah is left-handed so she rotates her jumps in the opposite direction so they look a little funny. At first it was distracting to me as well. Although Sarah does flutz and many of her jumps are underroted. For me, the issues with sarah lie in carriage and posture.

6. If you want a natural jumper, watch Volchkova.

There is no problem with you liking Sasha, but saying that the girl is a natural jumper... Usually that means standing up for a jump after completing it. Its your choice not to like these skaters, certainly im not here to convince you to like them.

LOl, im probably going to regret replying to this thread!!! :rollin: :rollin: Oh the price i pay for using the internet during my college classes! :rollin: :rollin:

 

[kwansong999]

Re: re

Also, if you watch Tara jump now after she had matured, the jumps looked totally different.

Same goes for Sasha. Next season MIGHT be even rougher on her. She will have to adjust to a changing body and that takes time.

Just look what this season did to Sarah!! The extra inch in height and extra pounds got her right after the OLY and she isnt CURRENTLY the same jumper she was last season.

 

[Show 42]

Re: re

Kwansong.........I was just about to mention Tara's jumps (I haven't seen her skate lately), but when she was an eligible skater, she held her arms out stifly (like the letter "T") when she landed a jump, sort of like a tightrope walker would do to keep balance. I always thought that was unattractive looking myself. Michelle's and Sasha's arms are flowing and natural looking when they land their jumps. Just an observation....42

 

[Joesitz]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

elingrace - While I disagree about your rationale of Michelle and Sarah, I applaud your steadfast belief in your favorite! that, to me, is what a fan is all about: a favorite, not a medal.

Joe

 

[dizzydi7]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

elingrace4eva,

Your post "spoke to me" because I understand what you are saying. First off, I love Michelle Kwan's skating. I don't get the same concern about Michelle falling on jumps but I've felt there is something, for lack of a better description, incomplete about her jumps. What I think bothers me is her lack of height. Michelle just doesn't seem to jump high enough so always looks like she won't complete the jump. Personally, my opinion, this makes her jumps less attractive than some of the other dynamic jumpers like Victoria.

Sarah Hughes does delay many of her jumps and I find this distracts from her program. But Sarah isn't the only skater to do this. Irina does it also except for her turn, turn, turn jump, which makes me think it possible for her to eliminate that long entrance to her other jumps. Must be a bad habit.

Also, I agree totally with your comment regarding the beautiful landings of Sasha Cohen. Yes, she falls too often but when she completes a jump, I find it a beautiful thing.

Dizzy

 

[mathman444]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

I love the title of this thread: "My Problem.":rollin:

Mathman

 

[Russian Fan]

Telegraphing

Michelle doesn't telegraph jumps? That's funny.
Didn't you see her free skate at the Worlds?

 

[mathman444]

Re: Telegraphing

Your problem. Michelle's only problem is where to store all her medals.

Mathman

 

[VeryColdWater]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I think bothers me is her lack of height. Michelle just doesn't seem to jump high enough so always looks like she won't complete the jump.[/quote]

Actually Michelle has better height in her jumps then Cohen and Vika has freakishly large jumps. Also Michelle gets height and distance on her jumps something that Sasha does not have. Her jumps also have the best landing edges in the business while Cohen has not shown herself capable of landing her jumps consistently at all let alone on the correct edges which she almost never does. Keep in mind that the edge you use to take off on is deductable but the edge you land on is also deductable. Very few people can come anywhere near Michelle's landing technique and Cohen is not one of them. Go back and look at the landing on the 2nd lutz on both Michelle's long from Nationals or Worlds. Cohen has never landed a jump with that much control. Sarah has come close but not recently. Irina lands them like that when she is on but then again she has better technique then either Sasha or Sarah just not as asthetically pleasing to the eye. Yall think if it's pretty it must be harder, that is not the case.

BTW, Michelle has more 6 and 7 triple programs then any other female skater in history. Cohen only landed her first 6 and 7 triple programs this year and they still were not clean. Watching Cohen skate makes me nervous because I know she is going to screw something simple up. That is her MO. It's rather sad.

 

[eltamina]

Spring sale

<span style="color:green;font-size:large;">Spring Sale, 2 for the price of one</span>

I love Sarah Hughes. She is a favorite whipping boy when it comes to jumps. No one takes the time to give her the credit e.g. her double axel is one of the best in the world. She nicely steps up to it without much drama and fanfare, gives us breath taking ice coverage, then she lands and exits the jump on a nice back outside edge, (there is no landing on the inside edge and rocking to the outside, and they call that attacking the landing LOL) Sarah's back outside landing /exit edge flow is tremendous and she turns it into a back spiral.

I love Sarah because she is honest in her skating. She has musicality, that touches the heart in a subtle, humble, self effacing way. She does not hit you over the head with loud presentations. I agree with Tenorguy that Sarah submits to the music of Daphne and Cloe. She is able to do that in the ripe young mature age of 16.

Now onto the off ice stuff, Sarah is self effacing in victory, gracious in defeat, worthy of taking on the responsibility of a reigining olympic champ.

I appreciate skaters/ artists/ soloists/ musicians who know how to be self effacing in the service of their art/ skating. Kreisler, Menuhin, Oistrakh, Heifetz all learnt at different stages of thier lives. I applaud Sarah for learning that in such a young age

OTOH, I hate to be hit on my head with loud presentation. When I hear a soloist who is trying to give me empty pyrotechnic jaw dropping technique without thorough understanding of the piece of music, I . No artist/ athlete is larger than the art / sport.

<span style="color:red;font-size:large;">Congrats Michelle, Elena and Fumie</span>

<span style="colorurple;font-size:xx-large;">Go Michelle, Go Sarah </span>

 

[elingrace4eva]

Re: Spring sale

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>her double axel is one of the best in the world.[/quote]

I don't mean any disrespect, and you are definitley entititled to your opinion, but are you kidding? I think that Sarah's double axel is far too big, not tight enough, and it takes her five seconds to when she begins setting up to when she actually takes off in the jump (I timed it in both the short and long at the worlds.) She does have a gorgeous landing, and the back spiral is eye-catching, but her technique inside the jump could use some work. Michelle, Vika, Sasha, Irina, Fumie, and Elena all have more impressive double axels.

And I, for one, LOVE "loud" presentation. I think it makes a program more exciting. When a program is big, and loud, and full of attack (which, I have to say, Michelle Kwan definitely achieves), I completely enjoy watching it.

Also, Sarah's off-ice personality has absolutley nothing to do with her skating. My best friend is a sweet person, and gracious, but her takeoff edge on her triple lutz isn't exactly up to par, and she can't rotate three times in the air. I mean, it's nice that she's a role model, but that doesn't make her worthy of a world championship gold medal. Skating and personality are two different things.

 

[kareliz]

Re: Spring sale

It's fun to discuss what we see, when most of us are seeing the same competitions on TV, yet what we SEE ends up being different.

I have long felt that there was something decidedly "off" about Sasha's landings. The edges are insecure, scratchy, it's a struggle. Michele's landing edges are the best and the most consistent.

What Sasha has when she jumps well is fast rotation in the air which adds excitement to her programs. But there is something funky in those landings. She also doesn't get the distance Michele gets.

Irina has both heights and distance, but often does not have good flow and speed coming out of the jump. I don't like the way her famous 3/3's almost came to a dead stop. I like that nice running edge flow out of jumps, which Irina certainly gets sometimes but not always. She also really telegraphs, a habits that drives me nuts. Michele is so great about just preparing for the jump and doing it within the flow of the music and choreography.

To me, Michele's jumps could only be improved by more spring and height. I think this is a biomehcnaical thing. She has a long torso and short lower legs, and somehow isn't quite built to get up into the air. I think this lack of height is the only thing holding her back from consistent 3/3's. That said, I'd love it if she could find some training that would help. I would say that jump height showed improvement this season. Does anyone know what her off ice training has been? (Sorry if off topic.)

But for amazing height, look at Volchkova and also YeBin Mok. Wow.

Sasha needs better edges, more ice coverage in the jump and a new mental game. Good luck to her.

 

[VeryColdWater]

Re: Spring sale

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> think that Sarah's double axel is far too big, not tight enough, and it takes her five seconds to when she begins setting up to when she actually takes off in the jump (I timed it in both the short and long at the worlds.)[/quote]

Wow what a silly comment. Her double axel is giant and airy. She does not need tight rotation because its huge and covers a MASSIVE amount of ice as well has having huge air. Irina does not rotate particulary fast in the air either, she just gets good air and goes with it. Neither Michelle or Sasah come within a decade of Sarah's double axel. It is by far and away Sarah's best jump and considered by many to be one of the best in the world.. I respect your right to your opinions but they don't make for realistic good skating. In other words if skaters followed your asthetic they would lose. Not opinion but fact.

 

[thvudragon]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

elingrace4eva, Sasha doesn't have pretty jumps IMHO. She always has rough landing in her program. Just look at her 3flip. It is entered hesitantly and doesn't have a very stable landing. Now compare that to MK's 3flip from, lets say, 03 Worlds SP. She had almost 0 telegraphing and had a beautiful outflowing edge.

As someone else stated, look at the 2nd 3 lutz in MK's Aranjuez. It has a perfect outflowing edge! I find your reasoning to make sense and I question whether you actually considered this at all. Even look at Sasha's 2axel, She always has a shakey landing leg. MK's 2axel is very stable and smooth. Take a look at Sasha's 3toe, it is her most inconsistant jump and, when landed, is always wonkey. MK's 3toe is usually perfect with the exception of a few comps.

Another ex. is MK's worst jump, the 3loop. Now, Sasha's 3loop is very mechanical in visage. She has stiff arms going in and out and doesn't look as smooth as MK's.

It's your to like any skater you want, but don't try to say you like someone and you don't based on reasons in which you can't back up.

TV

 

[Mathman3]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

What I like about Sasha's jumps is how fast she spins in the air. That's very pretty.

Mathman

 

[SHINE2002]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

I like Sasha's jumps until she lands them. She has good spring, tight rotations, and perfect backspin air position. But her landing makes me cringe all the time. She bends so far down into her knee that it almost seems painful, and not to mention her landings which are 90% of the time on the inside edge. She almost always has to twist around to correct the edge. It's like she's not even expecting the landing before she comes down. So no, I don't understand how you can be so comfortable with Sasha's jumps. IMO she has one of the most insecure jump landing of all time.

On the other hand, I like everything about Michelle's jumps ESPECIALLY her landing, except for her posistion in the air sometimes. Her legs are not crossed tight enough and because of that, she sometimes doesn't get the fast rotations and comes close to cheating the jump. But when she's on with her jumps, they are breathtaking. Her salchow, especially, is a thing of beauty. Everything is done in one breath and you don't even realize when she has just landed it.

Sasha's jumps can be amazing if she's to correct her landing technique.

I won't go into Sarah's jumps much because everything about them just look wrong. I can't stand the high free-leg before her toe jump take offs. And her prerotation as well as underrotation are just plain annoying. I do think her double axel is one of the best in the business but the way she sticks her head out everytime before taking off is very distracting and not pretty at all.

Anyway, just my $ .02.

 

[sk8cynic]

Re: My Problem with Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes

I love Sasha's skating style. I'm a big fan of that. I like Michelle's style, but I'm not enthralled with her.

That having been said, I cracked up about Sasha's landings. To say that Sasha has more sound, secure landings, etc., than Michelle, even I have to say .

She has, IMO, tighter, quicker rotation than Michelle, but there is no way her landings are more secure. She had so many wonky landings on jumps this season I lost count. Every time I watch her compete, I get that tight little knot in my stomach of, "Oh god, is she going to land it?" that I never get with Michelle. I agree in that, for me, there is something aesthetic about MK's jumps that doesn't do it for me, but I have yet to figure out exactly what it is. Unfortunately, I only have a couple of MK's programs on tape, and it's hard to analyze from just one or two skates.

About Sarah's 2a, it's one of the best jumps in her arsenal. It's flowing, gentle, and usually has a nice running edge coming out.

I'm not even going to speculate on the flutz/lip issues, except to say that it seems in recent years that this is becoming much more of a problem, not just for Sasha and Sarah, but for a whole generation of new skaters.