Nathan Chen

[1111bm]

Well in terms of GOE and PCS Nathan stands no chance against Yuzu, that's for sure, so he has to rely on a really clean skate with several more (or more difficult) quads than Yuzu, and then Yuzu also needs to make several mistakes, for Nathan to be able to beat him...

So if we were to pit them against each other with clean skates, Nathan would definitely lose in the SP... as for the FS... even with 5 clean quads in the FS, Nathan would most likely lose... I haven't really looked at the numbers to estimate if 6 quads could tip the scales, though...

I also think that he received some veeery generous judging in his olympic FS, probably due to the "dramatic" circumstances of his FS which gave him a certain emotional momentum...
(and then there's also the blatant favouritism displayed by the american judge... god, when I see those numbers, I just can't... how does she get away with this??)

 

[chopinskate]

You forgot Nathan's SP beat Hanyu's at Rostelecom Cup and won overall? It's just too bad Nathan was injured and thus didn't have a reliable quad lutz+triple toe, his opening money jump combination, and yes, the heavy expectations especially from himself unraveled him. But Nathan's FS score higher than Hanyu's by 9 points proves Nathan is worthy of all the hype which I don't understand why you think was horribly dishonest.

I know Nathan at 18 still has a lot to improve and I am looking forward to it.

Simple, because Nathan's six quad PB FS was still 8 points below Yuzu's 4 quad WC17 WR/PB FS. And that's with Olympic inflation.

Yuzu almost always peaks towards the end of the season. He may mess up the first GP assignment, but then he wins GPF and at least podiums at the Worlds.

A clean Nathan, right now, can't beat a clean Yuzu. Unless the PCS + quads give it to him.

In the future, he can work towards it, for sure.

 

[chopinskate]

Isn’t this a Nathan thread? Perhaps a new thread of Yuzu vs. Nathan should be created with all the Yuzu posts in here. I honestly don’t see the point of so many veiled and not-so-veiled posts of Yuzu’s supposed superiority in a thread dedicated to Nathan Chen.

It's supposed to be discussing what Nathan's sports-based merits are and how he can be the best in the world, right? The discussion came up for Nathan vs Yuzu, and Yuzu is very much the best in the world...

The discussion was also based on whether or not Nathan's hype machine by the media was completely honest in weighing his chances in the Olys. While I won't deny that he certainly had a chance, if the claim was based on his beating Yuzuru in Rostelecom, as has been suggested here, then that's false, and worth being pointed out.

So anyway, Nathan needs work on his SS and TR, and IMO he should drop two quads if they're interfering with his PCS skating. He could win with 6 quads, but his PB isn't the same as Yuzu's PB. So instead, he should now focus on PCS, IMO. Good SS+TR will put him on the podium with 4 quads. All that with one extra quad will land him gold. The reason he needs 6 quads is because his PCS doesn't measure up with the best (and the second and third best) in the world, and his consistency doesn't measure up with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best.

 

[hhh]

Perhaps Skating
skills and transitions right now, but Hanyu's "artistry" is overrated. Had Nathan skated and performed the SP the way he could, he wouldn't have looked like he lagged behind Hanyu in that area.

Agree his SP is by far the best of this season among the top contenders, if Nathan had skated a clean program (without the extras or super quads), he had no problem standing on He podium. I think Hanyu’s rest is another key - to have a well rested body aside from having one OG experience under his belt. I think he receives some generous points from the judges - just my view. Hanyu fans and everyone can share different views about Nathan and this is quite fine, this is why I became an avid fan of this place. Anyways, hope Nathan is fully recovered.

 

[shine]

Well in terms of GOE and PCS Nathan stands no chance against Yuzu, that's for sure, so he has to rely on a really clean skate with several more (or more difficult) quads than Yuzu, and then Yuzu also needs to make several mistakes, for Nathan to be able to beat him...

So if we were to pit them against each other with clean skates, Nathan would definitely lose in the SP... as for the FS... even with 5 clean quads in the FS, Nathan would most likely lose... I haven't really looked at the numbers to estimate if 6 quads could tip the scales, though...

I also think that he received some veeery generous judging in his olympic FS, probably due to the "dramatic" circumstances of his FS which gave him a certain emotional momentum...
(and then there's also the blatant favouritism displayed by the american judge... god, when I see those numbers, I just can't... how does she get away with this??)

It’s not like Hanyu doesn’t receive over the top GOEs and PCS, even when he breaks WR. How was the judging on Nathan generous? I think it was just about right. His PCS was just over 87 which is about what he’s been receiving all season with less clean skates. IF he had skated in the final group with that skate, you could be seeing even higher scores.

Also, Nathan never skated a completely clean SP this season and I think his performance could be so much better. But even then he scored about 104. I think with better jumps and performance level he could come close to Hanyu’s 111.

Nathan's relatively poor SS and TR (as compared to Yuzu) make him less fluid and look like he's doing things with more effort than Yuzu. If both were to go clean, Yuzu would still look better. Nathan has time to get better though. :agree:

I’m not disputing Nathan needs to work on TR and SS. But what I objected to is the word artistry. To me Nathan has far more artistic ability than Hanyu. My dream is for him to skate his FS the way he skated it at the senior B combined with maybe up to 4 quads.

 

[lappo]

It's supposed to be discussing what Nathan's sports-based merits are and how he can be the best in the world, right? The discussion came up for Nathan vs Yuzu, and Yuzu is very much the best in the world...

The discussion was also based on whether or not Nathan's hype machine by the media was completely honest in weighing his chances in the Olys. While I won't deny that he certainly had a chance, if the claim was based on his beating Yuzuru in Rostelecom, as has been suggested here, then that's false, and worth being pointed out.

So anyway, Nathan needs work on his SS and TR, and IMO he should drop two quads if they're interfering with his PCS skating. He could win with 6 quads, but his PB isn't the same as Yuzu's PB. So instead, he should now focus on PCS, IMO. Good SS+TR will put him on the podium with 4 quads. All that with one extra quad will land him gold. The reason he needs 6 quads is because his PCS doesn't measure up with the best (and the second and third best) in the world, and his consistency doesn't measure up with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best.

While I definitely agree with you, I also always try to put things in context and evaluate each athlete not only "against the best" but also in terms of personal growth. I remember the time when Yuzuru was 18 and everybody and their dogs said that his SS were nowhere near Patrick's (at the time, true) and his LP were painful to watch because you always worried whether he would finish with a tank of oxygen instead of a medal. Yuzuru and his team obviously worked on this and in the span of five years produced the 2 time OGM (the same can be applied, IMO, whenever people expect an out of junior skater to be on the level of Sochi Yuna/Caro/Mao...I think we sometimes are a bit too exigent and unrealistic in this regard and we forget that this abilities are the result of a LONG path).
Nathan has barely two season out of juniors and he obviously focused on the TES part in search of the elusive gold medal in 2018. I think that if he wanted to battle for this Olympic he did not have the luxury to gradually integrate his quads the way Yuzuru (rightly) advocates, he simply did not have time to do that in the short span before the Olympic and therefore he followed the TES route. However, I think that his SP in particular showed sign of improvements and was a great vehicle for him and his style.
Now, provided that he really wants to commit to it, he has 4 years to concentrate on cleaning everything (3a, landings, TR and SS) and to become a more rounded skater. I hope that he brings someone like Tom Dickson in his team to work on SS and to further and I wouldn't mind another Shae collaboration. But I think we are a bit too exigent to expect everything at once (I'm in an academic field and I shrug everytime I read what I wrote like five years old, when I obviously knew less and I probably will shrug 5 years from now for what I'm currently writing...it's just a path of growth that doesn't happen overnight).

 

[yyyskate]

Just so you know, Nathan has said in multiple occasions, that Hanyu is one of his figure skating idols. That is exactly how figure skating has developed to its current level. Younger generations learn from older generations, stand on former greats' shoulders and reach for even higher level.

 

[yyyskate]

also, We Nathan's true fans here do not shun away the discussion/comparison/mentioning of Yuzuru on Nathan's fan thread at all. But that is when it is relevant and necessary and all with great intention.

 

[Kelly]

I didn't dare to watch Nathan's SP performance live at Olympics and never watched it since.

But I just bumped into this video of Nathan's SP morning practice on the men's SP competition day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-SPObxMB8

The practice was just fine and he landed quad flip, 3 axel and even quad luz + triple toe.

 

[Arriba627]

As a former foreign language teacher, I found Nathan's FANS' posts regarding him speaking Mandarin to be fascinating. I had no idea that he even had a level of fluency in speaking. I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that he probably understood when his mom spoke to him but that he probably answered in English. Kudos to him for having any degree of proficiency that he has! With a second language, you can't sit around waiting until everything you say is perfect. You have to just go for it! So he can add that to his many talents.

I hope he is getting a good combination of resting, recuperating, and practicing before Worlds. I am going to be there and really look forward to seeing him.

 

[yyyskate]

I didn't dare to watch Nathan's SP performance live at Olympics and never watched it since.

But I just bumped into this video of Nathan's SP morning practice on the men's SP competition day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-SPObxMB8

The practice was just fine and he landed quad flip, 3 axel and even quad luz + triple toe.

Thanks for this fancam. it is kinda funny that, Nathan's innate music wanted him to skate his choroe/steps outside his run-thru according to other skaters' music that was playing.

 

[chopinskate]

While I definitely agree with you, I also always try to put things in context and evaluate each athlete not only "against the best" but also in terms of personal growth. I remember the time when Yuzuru was 18 and everybody and their dogs said that his SS were nowhere near Patrick's (at the time, true) and his LP were painful to watch because you always worried whether he would finish with a tank of oxygen instead of a medal. Yuzuru and his team obviously worked on this and in the span of five years produced the 2 time OGM (the same can be applied, IMO, whenever people expect an out of junior skater to be on the level of Sochi Yuna/Caro/Mao...I think we sometimes are a bit too exigent and unrealistic in this regard and we forget that this abilities are the result of a LONG path).
Nathan has barely two season out of juniors and he obviously focused on the TES part in search of the elusive gold medal in 2018. I think that if he wanted to battle for this Olympic he did not have the luxury to gradually integrate his quads the way Yuzuru (rightly) advocates, he simply did not have time to do that in the short span before the Olympic and therefore he followed the TES route. However, I think that his SP in particular showed sign of improvements and was a great vehicle for him and his style.
Now, provided that he really wants to commit to it, he has 4 years to concentrate on cleaning everything (3a, landings, TR and SS) and to become a more rounded skater. I hope that he brings someone like Tom Dickson in his team to work on SS and to further and I wouldn't mind another Shae collaboration. But I think we are a bit too exigent to expect everything at once (I'm in an academic field and I shrug everytime I read what I wrote like five years old, when I obviously knew less and I probably will shrug 5 years from now for what I'm currently writing...it's just a path of growth that doesn't happen overnight).

Oh, no, no. No. No, I definitely agree with you. As I said, Nathan can definitely strive to be the best, and I agree he has four years. I'm not saying "Nathan should only be compared against the best", and I recognize he has made great strides (have been following him since US17). My post was about what he might want to do now, seeing that even with six quads he might not be able to reach where he can if his PCS isn't too high. The field is too deep right now to just do TES anymore, and he does have four years to get that PCS in.


(Taking the academic parallel a little further, if one of your papers doesn't get published with just good writing skills, you'd focus more on having state-of-the-art experiments next time).

 

[shine]

I didn't dare to watch Nathan's SP performance live at Olympics and never watched it since.

But I just bumped into this video of Nathan's SP morning practice on the men's SP competition day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-SPObxMB8

The practice was just fine and he landed quad flip, 3 axel and even quad luz + triple toe.

This reminds me of something I noticed during these Olympics but forgot to mention amidst all the ups and downs. Watching his various practice videos his 3A technique has really changed and improved since we last saw him. There’s a much better kick takeoff and hang time, and he no longer looks like he’s just rotating in one spot. It looks very promising!

 

[besti loop]

I didn't dare to watch Nathan's SP performance live at Olympics and never watched it since.

But I just bumped into this video of Nathan's SP morning practice on the men's SP competition day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-SPObxMB8

The practice was just fine and he landed quad flip, 3 axel and even quad luz + triple toe.

Yes. God, if only that happened at the Main Event :'( anyways...

In this run-through, he omits plenty of footwork BUT instead he does his choreo moves. It's cool we can actually see these bare choreo accents of his program!
Tell me, isn't that enough to get PCs like top-5? He needs what, more hands waving?

 

[chopinskate]

I’m not disputing Nathan needs to work on TR and SS. But what I objected to is the word artistry. To me Nathan has far more artistic ability than Hanyu. My dream is for him to skate his FS the way he skated it at the senior B combined with maybe up to 4 quads.

I guess I'm of the opinion that less developed skills don't allow him to express himself perfectly yet.

 

[chopinskate]

Oh, no, no. No. No, I definitely agree with you. As I said, Nathan can definitely strive to be the best, and I agree he has four years. I'm not saying "Nathan should only be compared against the best", and I recognize he has made great strides (have been following him since US17). My post was about what he might want to do now, seeing that even with six quads he might not be able to reach where he can if his PCS isn't too high. The field is too deep right now to just do TES anymore, and he does have four years to get that PCS in.


(Taking the academic parallel a little further, if one of your papers doesn't get published with just good writing skills, you'd focus more on having state-of-the-art experiments next time).

And also, 6 quads are just begging for injury, again. That's not good, obviously.

 

[1111bm]

It’s not like Hanyu doesn’t receive over the top GOEs and PCS, even when he breaks WR. How was the judging on Nathan generous? I think it was just about right. His PCS was just over 87 which is about what he’s been receiving all season with less clean skates. IF he had skated in the final group with that skate, you could be seeing even higher scores.

Also, Nathan never skated a completely clean SP this season and I think his performance could be so much better. But even then he scored about 104. I think with better jumps and performance level he could come close to Hanyu’s 111.

I was mainly thinking of Nathan's FS during the olympics, not the SP (which is obviously such a gorgeous program and the most perfect fit for his skating style!).

I just felt that most of his jump landings looked pretty tight and scratchy (more so than usual). Add to that the lack of steps leading into the jumps, then I think that, to be fair, the GOE on his jumps should have been somewhat lower.

As for his PCS, he obviously left out many transitional steps (and there weren't that many to begin with in his FS)...

And I just felt that he looked way too focused on the jumps and as a result the in-between skating looked a bit tight and restrained.

He also didn't follow through on certain choreographic details, some arm movements looked more like an afterthought to me...

He's executed this program better in earlier competitions, and even then I thought he could commit more to the movements, you know, indulge in it some more in terms of musical phrasing... (which I know he can do so beautifully, he's just not showing his full abilities at the moment)

I still enjoyed the program, because it felt intense and in the end, after having completed all jumping passes, he practically threw himself into the choreo sequence and it was very passionate.

Ha, and yes, I agree that Yuzu is frequently overscored too (I mention some of the reasons why I believe that below).

Nathan's relatively poor SS and TR (as compared to Yuzu) make him less fluid and look like he's doing things with more effort than Yuzu.

I’m not disputing Nathan needs to work on TR and SS. But what I objected to is the word artistry. To me Nathan has far more artistic ability than Hanyu.

I have to admit that, in terms of skating skills and transitions, I find it hard to distinguish between… how should I put this… a good execution from a technical standpoint and on the other hand one that I find aesthetic, if that makes sense…?

I can see that Nathan doesn’t have as much glide across the ice as say, someone like Patrick Chan (who always has to serve as THE prime example of skating skills, of course ) and his edges are maybe not as deep…

But the way Nathan moves his body and extremities looks very fluid and graceful to me, almost feline (at least that’s what I’m always reminded of).

So to me Nathan’s skating is still more aesthetically pleasing than Yuzu’s for instance, because I feel that he has better lines and positions, and his movements look more refined, pointing his toes, tension in his upper body and arms, his overall carriage… (even though he may not have a "classical" regal posture as in "straight back and shoulders" the way Patrick Chan has).

Yuzu’s skating looks very fluid too, but the way he uses his arms and legs always looks somewhat sloppy and unfinished to me, and he slouches a lot, which I think can be a refreshing contrast to most other skaters who are way too stiff and upright, but ultimately there’s just too many slack movements for my taste (I literally once watched a performance where he looked so listless, that I thought he just couldn’t be bothered to make an effort… but of course he then was showered with points by the judges…)


(Ok, I hope I did not offend anyone because I dared talking about Yuzu and Patrick for the sake of comparison and to illustrate what I mean…)

 

[chopinskate]

I was mainly thinking of Nathan's FS during the olympics, not the SP (which is obviously such a gorgeous program and the most perfect fit for his skating style!).

I just felt that most of his jump landings looked pretty tight and scratchy (more so than usual). Add to that the lack of steps leading into the jumps, then I think that, to be fair, the GOE on his jumps should have been somewhat lower.

As for his PCS, he obviously left out many transitional steps (and there weren't that many to begin with in his FS)...

And I just felt that he looked way too focused on the jumps and as a result the in-between skating looked a bit tight and restrained.

He also didn't follow through on certain choreographic details, some arm movements looked more like an afterthought to me...

He's executed this program better in earlier competitions, and even then I thought he could commit more to the movements, you know, indulge in it some more in terms of musical phrasing... (which I know he can do so beautifully, he's just not showing his full abilities at the moment)

I still enjoyed the program, because it felt intense and in the end, after having completed all jumping passes, he practically threw himself into the choreo sequence and it was very passionate.

I agree with this. He took out a lot of the things that have increased his PCS this season, and yet he still got practically the same PCS. Which is why I felt he was overscored in the Olys, both in the SP and the FS.

I have to admit that, in terms of skating skills and transitions, I find it hard to distinguish between… how should I put this… a good execution from a technical standpoint and on the other hand one that I find aesthetic, if that makes sense…?

I can see that Nathan doesn’t have as much glide across the ice as say, someone like Patrick Chan (who always has to serve as THE prime example of skating skills, of course ) and his edges are maybe not as deep…

But the way Nathan moves his body and extremities looks very fluid and graceful to me, almost feline (at least that’s what I’m always reminded of).

So to me Nathan’s skating is still more aesthetically pleasing than Yuzu’s for instance, because I feel that he has better lines and positions, and his movements look more refined, pointing his toes, tension in his upper body and arms, his overall carriage… (even though he may not have a "classical" regal posture as in "straight back and shoulders" the way Patrick Chan has).

Yuzu’s skating looks very fluid too, but the way he uses his arms and legs always looks somewhat sloppy and unfinished to me, and he slouches a lot, which I think can be a refreshing contrast to most other skaters who are way too stiff and upright, but ultimately there’s just too many slack movements for my taste (I literally once watched a performance where he looked so listless, that I thought he just couldn’t be bothered to make an effort… but of course he then was showered with points by the judges…)

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/165539440729/i-have-heard-people-say-that-yuzurus-and
I guess the posture and aesthetics would be more of what would affect the IN score.

(Ok, I hope I did not offend anyone because I dared talking about Yuzu and Patrick for the sake of comparison and to illustrate what I mean…)

You shouldn't have to apologise.

 

[yyyskate]

@1111bm

mention other skaters or compare other skaters’ skating to Nathan’s to make valuable point is totally fine, Nathan’s fans on this thread have been doing that always. Yet it is different from certain recent activities on this fan thread. Hope people can differentiate.

Back to Nathan's component issue. I think people should understand and realize how difficult and extraordinary a feat to do a 6 quad long program. No human being on this planet either have the stamina or the skills (at least master 4 different type of quad) to do it except for Nathan. I really think that Nathan's effort/ability in his 6 quad FS is under-appreciated by people for the sake of artistry.

On the other hand, I think Nathan absolutely have the ability to add in more transitions and polish his skating skills (as long as he is doing less quads). He is a transition maniac during his all-triple-program days. His blade work is actually really good, compare to Patrick, he just need a bit more knee bending and a little deeper edge. but I think Nathan has a gift in balancing on his blade at all crazy positions.
As for lines and posture, Nathan is gifted in his lines(no doubt about that). He does need to improve his posture though, his shoulder blades are kinda close together, I think it will become better when he grow/mature more also with more deliberate attention and awareness to his posture.

So my point is that, Nathan is already doing something no other people can do, I believe he can improve his components side with a little trade off of quads, and he owns the ability to become the best of both sides, it is achievable, not so much the other way around.

 

[Metis]

You forgot Nathan's SP beat Hanyu's at Rostelecom Cup and won overall? It's just too bad Nathan was injured and thus didn't have a reliable quad lutz+triple toe, his opening money jump combination, and yes, the heavy expectations especially from himself unraveled him. But Nathan's FS score higher than Hanyu's by 9 points proves Nathan is worthy of all the hype which I don't understand why you think was horribly dishonest.

I know Nathan at 18 still has a lot to improve and I am looking forward to it.

You’re reading a lot into what I wrote that isn’t there. I actually love Nemesis — it’s one of my favorite short programs, period. My broader point was about the risk/reward game of swapping layouts at the Olympics, and how much more risk was involved in that specific moment, with that specific skating order.

I’ve said about all I really want to about the competitive mindset and Olympians in another thread, but as someone who was basically a coach for the top competitors (the rare few people who were capable of holding their own internationally), what I meant by referencing Hanyu’s injury is admittedly unclear. So let me unpack that: the more you compete against the strongest in the field, win or lose, the better for your own development. No one wants to win against a weaker field, frankly, but more to the point, while everyone is ultimately competing against their own best and to win individually, the deeper the competition, the more each individual improves. I don’t think Nathan needs to xcopy Hanyu or anything, just that when you don’t have to compete against one of the major threats for the OGM for most of the season (and Hanyu played the information game extremely well — such is the competitive metagame), it deprives everyone of a stronger competition. That applies to Boyang, Chan, Uno, and all the rest.

As for the coverage being dishonest: speaking as an American, outside of Slate (which has surprisingly good figure skating coverage), the rest of the men’s field was largely ignored prior to the short and Nathan was literally called “unbeatable,” with scoresheets. After the short, the press flipped too far in the other direction but did finally wake up to the idea of GOEs and the idea that Hanyu was going to get +3 when he lands a 3A, whereas Nathan would get +0 if he did. None of that is Nathan’s fault, and I suspect it had something to do with what went wrong at the Olympics; regardless, I found it to be irresponsible journalism. There was plenty to laud Nathan for without putting him in a situation in which anything less than a gold would be considered a “loss,” and as someone who legitimately likes Nathan’s skating and would like to see him continue to develop (if he wants to continue skating), I felt like the coverage was not only not helpful to those that only tune in every four years, but also risking leaving Nathan open to backlash from the exact people who took those “Chen can’t lose the gold” articles in good faith.

Which isn’t Nathan’s fault! And it was just frustrating and sad to see happen. That was criticism of the hype machine, not Nathan — there was a good amount of coverage in the run-up to the short that was priming a backlash if Nathan was less than perfect, and the night of the short, I watched the headlines come in and was disgusted, as they were vicious, even cruel. And from the same institutions that 24-48 hours ago couldn’t have named Hanyu, Uno, Boyang, Fernández, etc., and were calling Nathan a lock.

For what it’s worth, my initial impression of Hanyu wasn’t exactly positive, and I didn’t become a fan of his skating until around 2016, but I also really like Nathan and am certainly not rooting against him. And when they’re both at the top of their game, Hanyu and Chen’s current shorts are in a dead heat for me in terms of “best of the cycle.” I was just making a point on risk/reward at the Olympics, and why I saw the layout change as more risk than reward for a variety of reasons.