- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
Hmm, if the argument is that an outside edge is harder than an inside edge, there's really no case against people who LIP.
~Z
~Z
New ISU rule changes: "Flutzing" addressed
- Thread starter Mathman
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Welcome to the forum, Prince Princess. Thanks for joining us.
The new rule includes flips and Lutzes together and has the same penalty for both.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think it's a question of what's harder or easier. I think the argument is more along the lines of, whatever jump you call yourself doing, do it right.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Joe, I think I am starting to understand what you are saying about "lean." So for Lutz you are leaning to the outside (going pretty much straight backward?), while for a flutz you suddenly lean back the other way as you switch to the inside edge, making the jump a flip pure and simple (that is, a flip with a very short entry edge.) Is that right?
I also thought of something else. Suppose they change the rule to, "OK, party's over, from now on a Lutz is a Lutz and a flip is a flip, period."
So then a skater (man) might go something like
4T = 9.0
3A+2T = 8.8
3Flutz+3Lo = 11.0 or 10.5 depending on whether the tech specialist called it a Lutz or a flip
3A = 7.5
3Flutz = 6.0 or 5.5
3S = 4.5
3T = 4.0
2A = 3.5
The tech specialist could call two Lutzes or two filps or one of each -- but however he calls it, there is no penalty at all.
I also thought of something else. Suppose they change the rule to, "OK, party's over, from now on a Lutz is a Lutz and a flip is a flip, period."
So then a skater (man) might go something like
4T = 9.0
3A+2T = 8.8
3Flutz+3Lo = 11.0 or 10.5 depending on whether the tech specialist called it a Lutz or a flip
3A = 7.5
3Flutz = 6.0 or 5.5
3S = 4.5
3T = 4.0
2A = 3.5
The tech specialist could call two Lutzes or two filps or one of each -- but however he calls it, there is no penalty at all.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
There are two reasons that flutzes get more p.r. than lips.
1. Flutz! It's so fun to say and write! Flutz, flutz, flutz, an inherently funny word. Lip just isn't so much fun.
2. The faster and shorter set up for flips means that a lot of the time lips are harder to see clearly in real time (or even slo mo). The prolonged entrance to the f/lutz makes those a lot easier to spot (especially when there are secondary flutz indicators like high kicking legs for some skaters).
Reason number one rules the day.
Nope, Yuna Kim is not a lip jumper, and some folks are getting desperate. I have seen Yuna's videos over and over through and through.
I haven't watched and followed figure skating for some time, but I am about to come back because of Yuna. I certainly think I contributed to the declining viewership of figure skating.
How refreshing it is to see a skater like Yuna. That sort of talent doesn't grow on trees and doesn't come often. Yuna just exudes incredible talent and beauty on the ice. I commend Yuna's Korean coaches for getting on her early to teach sound technical skills that she possesses.
Definitely I am coming back to figure skating again for God's sake. Thank you Yuna for your wonderful skating.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman, I've given up on considering a flutz is a flip by definition. I now accept it as Flutz. And I am all for legitimitizing it with a base value of 2. If that doesn't get skaters to work on a proper lutz then they deserve to lose the competition. :banging:
As to the lean, the back outside edge lean is quite in conformity with doing a proper lutz. A skater is leaning into the direction of the jump's air turns. The back outside edge is the easiest edge of all 8 edges, imo. However, not so without a toe off. That toeless lutz separates the very few from the throngs.
the back inside edge is a killer for beginners. Try skating around the rink with just back inside edges. It's enough to get you back to basketball.
Joe
As to the lean, the back outside edge lean is quite in conformity with doing a proper lutz. A skater is leaning into the direction of the jump's air turns. The back outside edge is the easiest edge of all 8 edges, imo. However, not so without a toe off. That toeless lutz separates the very few from the throngs.
the back inside edge is a killer for beginners. Try skating around the rink with just back inside edges. It's enough to get you back to basketball.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think the key here will turn out to be the consistency of the judging. Previous to the rules revision, it was up to the individual judges to decide whether a skater was flutzing or not, how bad a flutz it was, and what to do about it if anything.
As Joe says, if it continues to be business as usual, then the rule change won't amount to anything.
But if the technical specialists really do clamp down in a consistent way, and also enforce the rule that compels the judges to acknowledge the call in the GOE, then it could have an effect.
If a skater that has a moderately bad flutz and finds herself getting only 4 points for it (after a -2 GOE) every time out, she might say, why am I knocking myself out trying a triple Lutz/triple toe combination that I can't really do, when I could get the same amount of points with a 3T/3T.
As Joe says, if it continues to be business as usual, then the rule change won't amount to anything.
But if the technical specialists really do clamp down in a consistent way, and also enforce the rule that compels the judges to acknowledge the call in the GOE, then it could have an effect.
If a skater that has a moderately bad flutz and finds herself getting only 4 points for it (after a -2 GOE) every time out, she might say, why am I knocking myself out trying a triple Lutz/triple toe combination that I can't really do, when I could get the same amount of points with a 3T/3T.
hi, i was just browsing in youtube and trying to learn how to recognize jumps and i came upon this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkD_o52mmUc.
Yuna's triple flip, triple toe combo was used as an example for triple lutz/triple toe. For all the experts here, do you agree that Yuna's jump here was a Triple Lip/Triple Toe?
Y
ykcami
Guest
Yu-Na has a true flip jump.
A maker of that Youtube clip seems to make a mistake because of a camera angle or another reason.
Also I think a few people is doing with their misunderstanding because Yu-Na uses a inside edge of nearly a right angle when she take off.
You can see Yu-Na's true flip jump in Yu-Na's worlds SP & LP surely.
Thanks for the clarification. I also thought Yu-Na's flip jump looks a lot like Shizuka's and I know Shiza does not lip.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
Shizuka definitely lips. So does Miki Ando. Not a big deal to me.
I don't think Yu-Na has a lip. If she does, it's minor. It looks to me like she is flat on the blade when she does the Flip.
~Z
Sorry for the late reply. As I said, I have not noticed any lip jumps in Yuna's Flip jumps. The definition of lip, If I may call it a definition, is an improperly executed Flip jumps where the inside take-off edge is mistakenly changed to an outside edge, making it a somewhat lutz jump.
I have seen many of Yuna's videos including SP and LP in Worlds, and if anything, it is slightly oriented toward inside from flat position when she takes off. Thus Yuna does not lip, and she is one of the best Flip jumpers in business. I hope it helps.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
Yeah, seriously, she has an amazing Flip. Easily the best out of all the women and on par with the very best Flips that you see from men.
She is very good at Toe jumps in general.
~Z
I have unterstood that if skater is on the flat of the blade, she is not doing flip, but a some sort of lip. Lutz from the flat is not lutz either...
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Way back, when I was in the Neanderthal League of Figure Skating, we called a flutz jump which took off on the flat of the blade. If it was on the back inside edge it was a Flip.
For whatever reasons when Lipinsky started showing off her 'lutz'(?) the jump became a flutz which meant it rocked over to the back inside edge. I actually give her credit for changing the way fans look at a flutz.
There should be a thread on The Flat. It is an interesting 'no edge' and so many elements either start or end on it and some spin on it.:yes:
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
As long as they are starting on the correct edge I don't care. Taking off from the flat should only been seen as bad, imo, if they started on the inside edge for the Lutz (or the outside for the Flip).
~Z
