New ISU rules for the upcoming season

[kolyadafan2002]

Oh absolutely, when I was trying out different approaches to a Salchow take-off, I noticed exactly what you said, that scraping the ice with my free foot is a nice way to stabilise and center myself. But there was no temptation to use it to somehow push myself off two legs. Out of curiosity, I should try it sometime, though. Oh well, once we're allowed back on the ice, I guess...

I personally take off the salchow one foot mainly as that is how I was taught. You dont see many people doing 4S one footed. Micheal Brezina and Nathan chen I believe do from 1 foot if memory serves me.

I think it's fair to say Javier fernandez had one of the most stable quad salchows. I'm pretty sure he has performed it from one foot and from two feet, but may be wrong. Either way jump of beauty for him.

 

[karne]

Test skates are very important to see who goes to internationals.

Anyways I digress. Lets take A different skater e.g Jason Brown.
If everybody was a jason brown fan they would want ISU to value quads much lower. It would be bad for ISU just to listen to them.

That's an interesting comment, as most Jason fans that I know are perfectly fine with the value of the quad, since he's found other ways to score big, and we know he'll eventually land one anyway.

 

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[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I find the 4Lo BV increase fair, it's notorious in its difficulty and there aren't many who jump that jump in the first place let alone consistently. With the flips and the lutzes... Well, even more arguing about edge calls is going to arise

Well at least certain people will stop their whining about the 4L being lower BV than the 4F and 4Z.

And certain people might whine (slightly) less that the ISU is rigging the system to favour certain skaters, and blame the BVs for results a bit less. #wishfulthinking

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I wonder how much the change of edge in combinations is going to be enforced - I notice several skaters in their 3T combos do a slight inside-outside change of edge before going up into the toe.

 

[SteamedEggplant]

Maybe instead of focusing on the imagined power of the ‘whiners’ or how annoying they are, we should be highlighting the entities with actual power? The ones making new and ever more mystifying rules and guidelines?

For example, the head of the ISU technical committee, stating that the flip and lutz has the same technique and preparation. These rule changes are going to fix nothing.

http://www.isu.org/figure-skating/news/news-fsk/13176-isu-updates-scale-of-values-and-judging-guidelines?templateParam=15

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe instead of focusing on the imagined power of the ‘whiners’ or how annoying they are, we should be highlighting the entities with actual power? The ones making new and ever more mystifying rules and guidelines?

For example, the head of the ISU technical committee, stating that the flip and lutz has the same technique and preparation. These rule changes are going to fix nothing.

http://www.isu.org/figure-skating/news/news-fsk/13176-isu-updates-scale-of-values-and-judging-guidelines?templateParam=15

I wonder what these statistics are? Frequency? Success rate? Should a 4Z be less than a 4S because more women have landed 4Z so that must mean it’s easier? Mao struggled with her salchow but had no problem with triple loops, flips and even axels.

Why is a 3L worth less than a 3F and 3Z but a 4L worth the same as a 4F and 4Z. Have they provided any data or reports as to why that is?

I suppose making them all equal is intended to placate a certain crowd who keeps going off about the base values - especially that of the 4L.

Although I doubt that will actually placate people either. Next thing you know certain people will take Bianchetti’s “the quad loop is likely the hardest” to heart and stage rink protests until the BV is bumped above a 4F and a 4Z.

Also it is completely erroneous to say a flip and lutz have the same technique and preparation. Why even distinguish the two elements then? Why not make it like the pairs triple Flip/lutz throw?

I mean it’s not even really a big deal since not a ton of placements come down to 1-2 points and so BV minutiae might end up being negligible. But calling a 4L the same as a 4F as the same as a 4Z is a bit lazy, and just intended to be diplomatic.

 

[century2009]

These rules will keep the top guys (Nathan and Hanyu) even more separated from the rest. But to be honest that seems fair given they do have solid and strong technique from the beginning and they do work hard to make sure it is textbook correct.

Before Shoma, Boyang, and maybe Vincent in top form has a chance but they now are more likely to be penalized and with their problematic techniques, it feels like they will suffer the most.

So 1 and 2 are taken, with everyone else fighting for the other spots depending on who has a good day.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Who are certain people? Who are certain skaters?

We are not calling out fans here on GS, are we?

Not calling out anyone in particular, as per Forum Rules.

 

[el henry]

Not calling out anyone in particular, as per Forum Rules. ��

And I actually deleted my post, but that doesn’t stop me from answering

It’s just that we have enough to argue about here on GS and with each other, that pointing to folks “out there” and all those nasty fans “elsewhere” seems to me to serve little purpose. And I try to quote folks if I disagree with them (not that I’m perfect) because they deserve to see my brilliance close up and for themselves

 

[SkatingIsLife]

I wonder what these statistics are? Frequency? Success rate? Should a 4Z be less than a 4S because more women have landed 4Z so that must mean it’s easier? Mao struggled with her salchow but had no problem with triple loops, flips and even axels.

Why is a 3L worth less than a 3F and 3Z but a 4L worth the same as a 4F and 4Z. Have they provided any data or reports as to why that is?
c.

I dont think they have any data study on this... and I just like to repeat my earlier post here:

4Lz (BV 11.00) 4Lz<< = BV 5.30 (3Lz) skaters loses 5.70 points of the BV
4F (BV 11.00) 4F<< = BV 5.30 (3F) skaters loses 5.70 points of the BV
4Lo (BV 11.00) 4Lo<< = BV 4.90 (3Lo) skaters loses 6.10 points of the BV

On the one hand ISU is telling us that the 3 quad jumps are all of the same difficulty and they give them the same BV.



Where is the logic here??? Why a skater for the same mistake gets a bigger reduction in his score than other skater for the same mistake???

What is the research Mr. Bianchetti and his committee has done to come up with this, making a same call on a mistake giving the one skater more points than the other one???

Why Mr. Bianchetti says "that the single or double Lutz are still considered to be slightly more difficult than a single or double flip because of a different technique." and according to him for 3Lz and 3F "The technique of the two jumps is the same as well as the preparation" (https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...alues-and-judging-guidelines?templateParam=15)

 

[sailormoon]

ISU keeps changing rules more frequently and drastically after Pyeongchang as if they are trying to get results they want. I'm losing interests especially in singles. Numbers for base values and GOE are 100% arbitrary with no scientific basis. Same competitions could give completely different results depending on scoring settings.

I guess the ISU is trying to create a level playing field for disadvantaged skaters. Hanyu was hampered by the first rule change after Pyeongchang and Shcherbakova is the second victim. She scored over 160 in free skate with two quad Lutz jumps (14.79 points for a quadruple Lutz; 18.66 points a quad Lutz-triple toe loop combination).

 

[kolyadafan2002]

These rules will keep the top guys (Nathan and Hanyu) even more separated from the rest. But to be honest that seems fair given they do have solid and strong technique from the beginning and they do work hard to make sure it is textbook correct.

Before Shoma, Boyang, and maybe Vincent in top form has a chance but they now are more likely to be penalized and with their problematic techniques, it feels like they will suffer the most.

So 1 and 2 are taken, with everyone else fighting for the other spots depending on who has a good day.

What technique does "Boyang" have that is problematic.
He has a slight edge on his flip, however he has generally good and solid technique.


Unrelated to this:
How if a 4F 4Lz and 4Lo are the same then why is a 4T or 4S so much less, and why aren't they the same.
Many people find salchow easier than toe, and many the other way round - some are salchow jumps and some are toe jumpers.
Why not make salchow and toe the same base value?
For those who have bad loop flip and lutz technique they find them easier than the proper technique jumped in salchow and toe (Mentioning no Italian skater specifically).

Maybe just make all the quads and all the triples the same base value to avoid this conflict - I'm quite delighted to be seeing the exciting short programs where everybody does toes and salchows - what a wide variety of elements.
Or we could just keep the previous base value system :?

What I don't understand is an underrotated triple flip is still worth more in terms of base value than a clean 3T. sure it will get -'ve GOE, but lets say the toe had a wobble on the landing and got -1's, then why does an underrotated triple get the same as a clean triple.

Lets now look at quad. underrotated quad loop is 8.8 - then maybe we have -1's and make that 7.92
Why is somebody doing an underrotated quad and getting more than a clean triple axel?
should that really be happening?
are we encouraging underrotated quads and triples? If somebody can land 3T, 3S and 3Lo clean consistently should we encourage them to do a 3F or 3Lz when 70% of the time it is 3F< or 3Lz< and get the same as a clean 3T, when there's a chance it will be clean and get them more points. They are getting reward with no risk for performing an element which they are not good at.

 

[Elspeth]

I dont think they have any data study on this... and I just like to repeat my earlier post here:

4Lz (BV 11.00) 4Lz<< = BV 5.30 (3Lz) skaters loses 5.70 points of the BV
4F (BV 11.00) 4F<< = BV 5.30 (3F) skaters loses 5.70 points of the BV
4Lo (BV 11.00) 4Lo<< = BV 4.90 (3Lo) skaters loses 6.10 points of the BV

On the one hand ISU is telling us that the 3 quad jumps are all of the same difficulty and they give them the same BV.



Where is the logic here??? Why a skater for the same mistake gets a bigger reduction in his score than other skater for the same mistake???

What is the research Mr. Bianchetti and his committee has done to come up with this, making a same call on a mistake giving the one skater more points than the other one???

Why Mr. Bianchetti says "that the single or double Lutz are still considered to be slightly more difficult than a single or double flip because of a different technique." and according to him for 3Lz and 3F "The technique of the two jumps is the same as well as the preparation" (https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...alues-and-judging-guidelines?templateParam=15)

I'm so at this it's insane (not your post obviously). I mean, how long has the CoP been in place and determined a Lutz to be harder than a Flip, 15 years? And now, suddenly, after one season of 'research' the ISU is saying nah mate, Flip and Lutz are the same...

Honestly. It doesn't even matter if there is a point to the argument or not. You can't just make a statement like that and not back it up by something. At least show us this 'research'. Because right now it just comes off as completely arbitrary and baseless.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I'm so �� at this it's insane (not your post obviously). I mean, how long has the CoP been in place and determined a Lutz to be harder than a Flip, 15 years? And now, suddenly, after one season of 'research' the ISU is saying nah mate, Flip and Lutz are the same...

Honestly. It doesn't even matter if there is a point to the argument or not. You can't just make a statement like that and not back it up by something. At least show us this 'research'. Because right now it just comes off as completely arbitrary and baseless.

The only thing two jumps that are even close to being the same difficulty are salchow and toe: Half the world teach salchow before toe and the other half toe before salchow.

Everybody I've ever met teaches flip before lutz.

 

[1111bm]

These rules will keep the top guys (Nathan and Hanyu) even more separated from the rest. But to be honest that seems fair given they do have solid and strong technique from the beginning and they do work hard to make sure it is textbook correct.

Before Shoma, Boyang, and maybe Vincent in top form has a chance but they now are more likely to be penalized and with their problematic techniques, it feels like they will suffer the most.

What's wrong with Boyang's jumps? His Lutz take-off is obviously perfect. Does he have a lip? (I can't recall what his Flip looks like)
His Loop seems alright too? Speaking of, hasn't he also tried a quad Loop in the beginning of this past season? I don't think his name has been mentioned yet.

I am very curious however, to see if Shoma and Vincent will get somewhat lower GOEs on their jumps... Shoma especially, since the flaws in Vincent's Lutz and Flip take-off aren't as blatant/easily detectable ('flaws' if we assume that there's a textbook picking technique) .

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What's wrong with Boyang's jumps? His Lutz take-off is obviously perfect. Does he have a lip? (I can't recall what his Flip looks like)
His Loop seems alright too? Speaking of, hasn't he also tried a quad Loop in the beginning of this past season? I don't think his name has been mentioned yet.

I am very curious however, to see if Shoma and Vincent will get somewhat lower GOEs on their jumps... Shoma especially, since the flaws in Vincent's Lutz and Flip take-off aren't as blatant/easily detectable ('flaws' if we assume that there's a textbook picking technique) .

I don't believe he has ever tried quad loop (happy for anybody to prove me wrong). The 3 quads he does (Salchow toe and lutz) are excellent, and he was first to land 3 types of quad in program. He also does 1 foot salchow sometimes I believe. This season he lost a lot of consistency (some say he trains 4A and that messes with jump timing), however previous seasons he has shown to be a very consistent quad jumper, and was early quad pioneer. His 3Lo has perfect technique but he hasn't done 4Lo yet, his 3F was a lip but its okay to have a weak jump.

Shoma should get negative GOE for his flip - aside from the takeoff which is blatant he also has lean in the air, lean on the landing and landing leg issues. Ignoring the actual jump mechanics there is no way he should get high GOE for the jump even if he had textbook takeoff. Nathan chen got neg GOE for stronger quad flips for the entire jump ignoring the superior takeoff.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The only thing two jumps that are even close to being the same difficulty are salchow and toe: Half the world teach salchow before toe and the other half toe before salchow.

Everybody I've ever met teaches flip before lutz.

Agreed. A lutz is regarded as harder because of the counter rotation. I don’t get how that suddenly becomes negligible in a 4Z vs a 2Z. Maintaining an outside edge on a lutz is way harder as evidenced by a much greater prevalence of flutzers than lippers.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I guess the ISU is trying to create a level playing field for disadvantaged skaters. Hanyu was hampered by the first rule change after Pyeongchang and Shcherbakova is the second victim. She scored over 160 in free skate with two quad Lutz jumps (14.79 points for a quadruple Lutz; 18.66 points a quad Lutz-triple toe loop combination).

Shcherbakova has two quad lutzes. She just got a point docked from her BV. How do these rules benefit her?

This benefits skaters who do 4L. And hurts skaters who do 4Z.

 

[eaglehelang]

I don't believe he has ever tried quad loop (happy for anybody to prove me wrong). The 3 quads he does (Salchow toe and lutz) are excellent, and he was first to land 3 types of quad in program. He also does 1 foot salchow sometimes I believe. This season he lost a lot of consistency (some say he trains 4A and that messes with jump timing), however previous seasons he has shown to be a very consistent quad jumper, and was early quad pioneer. His 3Lo has perfect technique but he hasn't done 4Lo yet, his 3F was a lip but its okay to have a weak jump.

Boyang Jin was reported to have tried 4L either in official practice or at domestic competition in China.
There was a video on it somewhere in weibo but I cant recall which event. China/Boyang fans might remember.