One Judge's View

[dorispulaski]

Okay, all minus one or two.

:chorus:

 

[blue dog]

I agree with Doris, Jim. We all appreciate what you've done--not just for the skaters, but for figure skating. We wish more judges would post and tell us what goes on from the judges' perspective, because sometimes all we really need is an explanation. We're human, too--and like the fact that we're able to get it from your point of view. Please do not lurk...participate!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just my butting in regarding the rights of judges and the rights of observant fans. It is impossible for a fan to take away the rights of the judges. Their word is gospel. However, I can not agree that the rights of the fans of former competitions (not necessarily well known) should be considered inferior, and if they wish to express their views in an open forum then so be it.

Figure Skating like all other Judged Sports (Equestrian Dressage, Diving, Gymnatstics etc.) all have subjectivity embeded in the them. The judges of those sports know well their duties in arriving at a personal decision for the good of the Championship not for their personal favorites, not or their country, not for a bribe.

I have seen a vast improvement in honest judging since the institition of the CoP. Not perfect, of course, but so much better than in the 6.0. The possible dishonesty can only be effective with competitors who are very close in being scored and the means to 'cheat' would be the GoEs and PCS, but I have had little problem disagreeing with them so far. World Championships and Olympics are another closer look.

One more improvement needed is the infallible call of the Tech Panel all of whom sit with the same view. There have been many times, I questioned their decisions to downgrade and not issue a wrong edge takeoff. My suggestion would be to have the three members sit and view in different areas of the arena to make certain of any skater's mishaps.

I also feel that there is a Rush To Judgement but that matter should be discussed by the judges.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Thabks for the interesting thread, Jim R.

I have to admit that I am becoming more and more disillusioned by the current ISU judging system. To me, it is not merely that we need to tweak this and that.

IMO the ordinal system contained a truth about the nature of figure skating that the CoP tries its best to obscure: figure skating is a judged sport. 2.38 points for this and 5.91 points for that -- to me, all this does is make figure skating more like other sports.

 

[Tonichelle]

I guess it's all where you want to view it... what's the point of sport if you're not getting rewarded for being athletic. this isn't a dance recital

 

[Mathman]

I guess it's all where you want to view it... what's the point of sport if you're not getting rewarded for being athletic. this isn't a dance recital

Well, that's where the first mark came in -- to reward athletic accomplishment. I think the judges are competent to judge both athleticism and artistry.

 

[Tonichelle]

the 6.0 wasn't fair to the guy who had to go first or second... they weren't ever rewarded becuase they had to be held down just incase someone skated better... and sometimes in big competitions they were forgotten and so they were way low for no other reason than their skatig order... how is that right?

 

[gkelly]

Well, the skater who went first or second didn't have to be held down in placement, only in absolute scores. The judges could leave room to score plenty of skaters higher and then not give any subsequent skaters those higher scores if none skated better than the first guy.

But it is true that in big competitions the earlier skaters could accidentally be forgotten.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thabks for the interesting thread, Jim R.

I have to admit that I am becoming more and more disillusioned by the current ISU judging system. To me, it is not merely that we need to tweak this and that.

IMO the ordinal system contained a truth about the nature of figure skating that the CoP tries its best to obscure: figure skating is a judged sport. 2.38 points for this and 5.91 points for that -- to me, all this does is make figure skating more like other sports.

Other sports do not use a form of dance to music. That's the big difference between the various sports and figure skating. As I see it, most skaters are not all that musical despite their taking a ballet class twice a month. Rarely do I see a skater that keeps with the variety of the tempos in the music he/she uses. Better he/she use movie background music and jump to the swells. It gets a roar from the crowds enjoying the high technical. The transitions leading up to the big jump are so petty and often not with the music. And it seems the same transitions are used by all skaters. However their are a few skaters who can move their feet with the basics musically. FEW.

Best examples of skating to music are found in Skate Dance.

Joe

 

[passion]

Other sports do not use a form of dance to music. That's the big difference between the various sports and figure skating. As I see it, most skaters are not all that musical despite their taking a ballet class twice a month. Rarely do I see a skater that keeps with the variety of the tempos in the music he/she uses. Better he/she use movie background music and jump to the swells. It gets a roar from the crowds enjoying the high technical. The transitions leading up to the big jump are so petty and often not with the music. And it seems the same transitions are used by all skaters. However their are a few skaters who can move their feet with the basics musically. FEW.

Best examples of skating to music are found in Skate Dance.

Joe

Well, it is possible to take ballet and not be musical because I think a person is born with it whether or not they take ballet.

 

[silver.blades]

Bllet can teach a person musicallity, but the older you are when you start classes the less likely you are to learn musicallity if you weren't born with that talent. Even then, god given talent is a factor in how musical you can become. I don't know any ballet dancers who arn't musical personally, but some are more musical than others.

 

[kyla2]

Inappropriate

Sorry, but I think a judge posting here complaining about comments on a skating forum is inappropriate and unporfessional. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

[Mathman]

Well, judges have a right to express their opinions on line just like everyone else.

 

[kyla2]

Oh yes.....

Oh yes, he can state his opinion. Likewise, I am free to tell him that I think he is unprofessional and inappropriate.

 

[jimreuter]

Jim, Please don't be discouraged. We all appreciate your courage to post here as a judge, and of course, we all have questions and opinions.

Besides, I would still like to know whether the judges have any ability or at least a process to correct an obvious mistake by the caller. (Say calling a lutz an axel by hitting a wrong key or symbol by accident). Do the judges have any ability to do this, or does the mistake just stand?

BTW, thank you for your work to advance figure skating by being a judge.

Theoretically, at least, the judges can challenge what they feel is an incorrect element called. My interpretation of this is a loop called where a Salchow was executed, or a double Axel called where a triple Axel was executed. Although this theoretically could happen, given the experience level required of everyone on the Technical Panel and the extensive review process they go through, I simply cannot imagine this actually occurring. As to the levels assigned to elements and the decision to downgrade a jump or not, the decision is the Technical Panel's to make. The judges need to worry about Grade of Execution and the Program Component Scores. They do not (and should not, in my opinion) be worrying about someone else's job - otherwise, they are not paying enough attention to their own very challenging job.

This division of duties is a big change from 6.0, where the judges had to do it all. Whether it is an improvement or not is certainly open to (endless) discussion.

 

[Tonichelle]

given the experience level required of everyone on the Technical Panel and the extensive review process they go through,

Even Dick Button gets confused and calls the wrong jump... and he has a lot of experience in that area. mistakes happen

 

[jimreuter]

Even Dick Button gets confused and calls the wrong jump... and he has a lot of experience in that area. mistakes happen

The Technical Specialist makes the initial call. The other two members of the Technical Panel can (and do) call for a review anytime they think there is a question about the call - in fact, the Technical Specialist himself/herself often calls a review. All 3 of the people on the Technical Panel are very experienced, the Specialists as coaches and/or competitors, the Controller as a very experienced judge (often also an experienced competitor).

Anything called for review is discussed by the panel, usually reviewed on video replay. The majority opionion rules - nobody is making a call on their own.

Seems like this has been posted here before at least once, perhaps more than once - not by me, but by others. I guess it is such a departure from the previous practice that it is hard to grasp, unless you have been involved and heard the discussions on the headsets, and perhaps know the people making the calls personally. So I don't think there is any way to convince those who think there is a problem. Myself, I think there are problems with the IJS, but I don't think that blown calls by the Technical Panel is one of them.

 

[Tonichelle]

Jim I'm actually one of the few outspoken FOR the IJS... I think it still needs a bit of tweaking, but it's by far better than the 6.0 system.