Originality

[viennaskater]

Ilya Klimkin
Viktor Pfeifer's trademark 'dislocated shoulder' spin
Nearly all Gilles/Poirier's FPs
Kevin Aymoz choreography
Castelli/Tran death spiral entry in this year's LP

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Delobel & Schoenfelder's creative presentations of CDs,. The steps were all required, the music was prescribed, and yet they managed to have an original take on them.

Sheriff and bar girl Yankee Polka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHfEiTRPSI

and a Pirate Paso Doble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LVkJfh1m1Y

Pechalat & Bourzat had some clever changes of costume which was a real innovation at the time. (check the ending)
Craziness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnXNZOFzocU

They were the only couple to effectively use an OD prop the year there were allowed: flamenco/fan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZPRencOHCw

Yeah, i consider both French teams highly original in terms that they always did something different from the rest when it comes to costuming and concepts. For example D/S using of gloves as carnival masks in 2006 programme and P/B Cats programme in cats costumes (which i cant find anymore). And they had that unique balance lift and did one of my favorite EX of all time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnzjgbIWkqw

 

[dorispulaski]

For their originality, I dearly love both D&S France and P&B France

In fact I love them better than Papadakis & Cizeron, and a lot of other teams that are usually regarded higher, just because of their creativity and their ability to create surprising, original, and memorable programs.

 

[lappo]

The chair in this gala program is brilliantly used!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlxwcbedkR0

:agree: Each time a see a chair in an EX I can't help but remember a brilliant comment (I don't remember who said that) about how Shaelynn managed to effectively replace Viktor with a chair (poor Viktor!). The program in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCL63U3Omck

 

[karne]

Also there's a junior skater from New Zealand called Harrison Bain - unfortunately he hasn't got the jumps, but he has the most amazing spins! Like seriously! My jaw was on the floor. Stephane would applaud!

Harrison's spins are amazing!

 

[WeakAnkles]

Toller Cranston.

It's interesting that you have two performers skating the same generation: John Curry, who is THE epitome of classic male balletic skating. And then you have Toller, who is THE epitome of classics? what classics? I'm skating MY vision.

Skating will always come back to the Currys of the world. And there is something to be said for the classic done to peak perfection. But it's the Cranston's who move the sport forward in interesting directions.

I don't think it's a case of either/of. Gimme both.

 

[peepsquick]

It's interesting that you have two performers skating the same generation: John Curry, who is THE epitome of classic male balletic skating. And then you have Toller, who is THE epitome of classics? what classics? I'm skating MY vision.

Skating will always come back to the Currys of the world. And there is something to be said for the classic done to peak perfection. But it's the Cranston's who move the sport forward in interesting directions.

I don't think it's a case of either/of. Gimme both.

Totally agree with you: both exceptional skaters but to me both had their vision and both made the sport move forward. Contrary to what a lot of skater fans want these days, especially when it comes to ice dance: staying true to yourself, your art, your sport makes it move forward. We have quite an array of talented singes, pairs and dancers these days, enough for an exciting variety. We should, IMO as spectators, stop pressuring skaters to conform to a certain vision with have of the sport.

Moving back to my awe for one particular performance I discovered a couple of years back: Anissina/Peizerat's Romeo and Juliet. Conventional theme but tackled backwards time wise. Each time I watch it, I am blown away!

 

[rikaquegira]

There are 4 Yuna Kim SPs that are original to me, I can't explain why exactly... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept of originality, but I'm thinking about programs that are "a breath of fresh air", that don't seem generic or similar to a dozen other programs. If a program seems fresh and unique, is it original??
Of course then I'm thinking about the program as a whole, not about original spins or moves. But I guess every unique program has original concept or construction or mood or something that makes it different from the rest. And I guess at this point I'm using "unique" as a synonym for "original". Not sure that's correct.
Anyway, the programs that came to my mind were the following: Bond Medley, Danse Macabre, Send in the Clowns, and Kiss of the Vampire.


PS.: I attempted to explain why(wrote the longest comment), but I think I'll just post it on Yuna Kim fan fest because it kinda was too complimentary and I don't want people saying things like "this is not a fanfest". Lol
It is a thing that happens when I speak of Yuna, I suddenly find myself speaking too highly of her. Can't help it. Sorry!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

The chair in this gala program is brilliantly used!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlxwcbedkR0

Christopher Dean genius at work.

 

[el henry]

Toller Cranston.

See, I waited for someone else to post it.

But yes, originality, as in, overall, just an original. Nobody but:agree:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

For their originality, I dearly love both D&S France and P&B France

In fact I love them better than Papadakis & Cizeron, and a lot of other teams that are usually regarded higher, just because of their creativity and their ability to create surprising, original, and memorable programs.

Well, it depends how you look at it. I think P/C were original when they first time introduced their current concept and style of FD (it was quite different style from the rest of the field). Now when they are repeating it and lot of other couples are using it commonly its not original anymore. Also, a lot of people rememeber them as original while they were Juniors, skated under Zazoui choreo. Knowing that she also choreographed some of D/S and P/B programmes we were talking about, i guess a big part of originality we can address to Zazoui and choreographers work in general.

 

[gkelly]

If a program seems fresh and unique, is it original??

Maybe, maybe not.

Of course then I'm thinking about the program as a whole, not about original spins or moves. But I guess every unique program has original concept or construction or mood or something that makes it different from the rest. And I guess at this point I'm using "unique" as a synonym for "original". Not sure that's correct.

Well, if it's unique because no one else has ever done it before, it would have to be original.

If it's unique now because it used to be common and then most people stop doing it, that wouldn't really be original. But a decision to bring back something old fashioned or "classic" skating trends could be creative in its own way.

I was thinking of "original" meaning "innovative" -- bringing something new to the sport that hadn't been done before.

But that could happen in a variety of different ways. Choosing music or a program theme or developing a style of body movement or program construction or other aspects of choreography that had not previously been common or used at all in figure skating competition.

Or creative with the technical skills in one way or another.

(I tend to think more in terms of competitive skating. And of course it's a lot easier to be creative/innovative, etc., in show programs than in competitive programs because there are no rules and it's not important to maximize the overall difficulty.

Maybe "creative" would be a better word.

One area for innovation or creativity that is of special interest to me is creative ways of combining moves. New entries into elements or exits out of them. New ways of linking two elements together. Unusual jump combinations.

Within IJS rules, or short program rules in general, creative ways of fulfilling the requirements and earning points.

For that reason I would say that extreme backloading was original the first time it was done a couple years ago. Now that the same few skaters who were doing it then are still doing it and more are following suit, it's not so original any more, though still on the rare side.

 

[dorispulaski]

It is a fact that it is hard to separate the innovations of a skater or team from the creations of their choreographer(s). Or from that of their acrobatics coach. Sometimes you know, especially when skaters are known for doing their own choreography. Torvill & Dean and Toller Cranston, Gary Beacom, Rohene Ward, and Stephanie Rosenthal for example.

Sometimes especially in an Olympic year, the skaters will be asked about a move, and then we learn how the move was created.

Otherwise not.

 

[rikaquegira]

Maybe, maybe not.



Well, if it's unique because no one else has ever done it before, it would have to be original.

If it's unique now because it used to be common and then most people stop doing it, that wouldn't really be original. But a decision to bring back something old fashioned or "classic" skating trends could be creative in its own way.

I was thinking of "original" meaning "innovative" -- bringing something new to the sport that hadn't been done before.

But that could happen in a variety of different ways. Choosing music or a program theme or developing a style of body movement or program construction or other aspects of choreography that had not previously been common or used at all in figure skating competition.

Or creative with the technical skills in one way or another.

(I tend to think more in terms of competitive skating. And of course it's a lot easier to be creative/innovative, etc., in show programs than in competitive programs because there are no rules and it's not important to maximize the overall difficulty.

Maybe "creative" would be a better word.

One area for innovation or creativity that is of special interest to me is creative ways of combining moves. New entries into elements or exits out of them. New ways of linking two elements together. Unusual jump combinations.

Within IJS rules, or short program rules in general, creative ways of fulfilling the requirements and earning points.

For that reason I would say that extreme backloading was original the first time it was done a couple years ago. Now that the same few skaters who were doing it then are still doing it and more are following suit, it's not so original any more, though still on the rare side.

Well, @gkelly, thanks for the explanation!
I do agree backloading is somewhat news. It's getting more common nowadays as others try to keep up with the Russians(and because of the high number of Russian girls).
But I guess I'd say Eteri basically created a new style in ladies FS. It is very recognizable. Backloading, loads of transitions, tanos, rippons. You do all that and you have this original program style that hasn't been done before. Don't you agree?

I have certainly never seen a program as busy as Alina's Red Ballerina. Whether you like it or not(and I mostly don't), they found a new way of building a program.
As for the arm over the head, that's other thing that I'd consider original since it wasn't used as consistently before. They basically do it for every single jump, in every single program. But it started as an original strategy, which now has been used extensively.

Now, I'd also say the first Medvedeva's senior programs were pretty original. Along with the backloading, transitions and arm over the head tatics, the program concepts and choreography were also pretty unusual. At this point I'd say Med has stablished her particular style. The use of very contemporary music(instead of the more classical or pop), that sound very cinematic, like a movie score theme, accompanied by the miming thing and the tragic/peculiar stories meant to be told through it. The whole thing was very different from the rest. And I think that is one of the reasons why it was such a big success and many people fell in love with her style. Again, it might not be a novelty anymore since she has been around for a while now basically repeating the formula. But anyway, I think it is an example of originality.

 

[Ares]

What about the final position in Kexin Zhang spin? I find it very original, not sure whether I've seen other skaters using it - donut spin is popular but the way it unfolds is unique, the position she hits is impressive & attractive to watch. I also find the skater & the program itself much better than I've remembered back then. She was only 16 in that time, I think her potential went unfulfilled but I remember reading that she was not not truly enjoying figure skating and that's why she quit so early.

https://youtu.be/MVP2QXe3g84?t=1m29s

 

[rikaquegira]

What about the final position in Kexin Zhang spin? I find it very original, not sure whether I've seen other skaters using it - donut spin is popular but the way it unfolds is unique, the position she hits is impressive & attractive to watch. I also find the skater & the program itself much better than I've remembered back then. She was only 16 in that time, I think her potential went unfulfilled but I remember reading that she was not not truly enjoying figure skating and that's why she quit so early.

https://youtu.be/MVP2QXe3g84?t=1m29s

Well, that reminded me of other Zhang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JaMJUdvoZI
I forgot how amazing that spin is!!!!

 

[Ares]

Well, that reminded me of other Zhang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JaMJUdvoZI
I forgot how amazing that spin is!!!!

Caroline Zhang used to have mind-boggling flexibility esp. in her spins. Her back was like that of a rubberwoman. I think though that this repetitive strain unfortunately contributed to all these injuries that affected her.

 

[OS]

Originality is too general term unless you examine them in context

- to the figure skating history
- to the field compete with
- to skater's personal history
- to other competitors
- to music history
- to choreography history

- break down to elements, movements, choreography, ways you did vs previous etc..

It is also complicated one. For example, to be original for originality's sake is hardly anything original.
Being true to who you are, taking risks, boldly experimental with unfamiliarity imho is also part of originality.

Art is really self-discovery. One shouldn't have to care about what others are doing, but focus on what themselves, what why how they are doing it, are they true and meaningful to their personal journey, environment, education, culture, believes, philosophy, edification, what they are trying to express with the knowledge gained, researched, and explored and hopefully developed a genuine, authentic original take that is true to who they are. Focus on things they can control and what they should care about. Then it is up to the educated observer/ judges to comprehend it and develop their own opinion.

 

[TontoK]

What an interesting thread.

See, I viewed "original or creative" as being a figure skating move. Which is why I cited Bradie's death drop into a sit-spin variation I had not seen before.

I guess I don't view choreography in the same vein, because we expect original choreography for every program - and not he same program skated to background music.

Likewise, I don't necessarily view skaters as original, because of course they're all unique individuals.

If I had to pick a single skater that was "original or creative" it would be Toller Cranston. I'd never seen anything like him in my life, and I'm old enough that I saw him when he skated competitively.

If I had to pick a single program that was "original or creative" it would be Torvill and Dean, 1982, to Mack and Mabel. Everybody knows Bolero, but the stage was set with Mack and Mabel, which was completely out of the box, and the next year with Barnum. Bolero, spectacular I grant you, was really just a continuation of the work they had done pushing artistic boundaries in the two previous years.

 

[ribbit]

If I had to pick a single program that was "original or creative" it would be Torvill and Dean, 1982, to Mack and Mabel. Everybody knows Bolero, but the stage was set with Mack and Mabel, which was completely out of the box, and the next year with Barnum. Bolero, spectacular I grant you, was really just a continuation of the work they had done pushing artistic boundaries in the two previous years.

It's mind-boggling to watch the totally traditional program (four disconnected pieces of music, each with a different dance rhythm) with which Torvill and Dean won Worlds in 1981 and then watch Mack and Mabel. They revolutionized ice dance in the space of a summer. It's hard to know what to compare that leap to--The Beatles going from Beatles for Sale to Rubber Soul in less than a year?

And agreed: great topic, gkelly!