Pairs' PCS and size difference?

[chopinskate]

Pairs' PCS and size difference

Mathman said this in another thread:

I have always wondered if the judges have a dislike for "gorilla and flea" pairs teams and, perhaps subconsciously, give lower PCSs. Here is what Wikipedia says about the team of Marina Cherkasova and Sergei Shakhral, 1980 world champions.

Cherkasova was 12 when the pair captured the bronze at their first European Championship in 1977. Their height difference [she was 138 cm (4 feet 6 inches), he was 173 cm (5 feet 8 in) facilitated innovation in twist and lift elements; they became the first pair to perform the split quadruple twist in 1978. Later, the judging standards were changed to value physical harmony between the partners, which handicapped Cherkasova and her partner.

They won the European title in 1979. By 1980 Cherkasova had grown 20 cm. The change affected their technical elements, however, the pair managed to win silver at 1980 Europeans, silver at the 1980 Olympics, and gold at Worlds. ...

Shakhrai's problems lifting his now 45 kg partner eventually resulted in them splitting up. By 1981, Cherkasova had grown so tall that Shakhrai could no longer effectively lift her. ...

Has anyone noticed such a trend? I do feel there's a bias amongst viewers a little, because I've seen posts calling Zhang Hao "lumbering", for instance, and Yu and Savchenko being called solo pairs. Maybe it's for some other reason, though.

 

[draqq]

I think it's mainly psychological and somewhat of a self-sustaining feedback loop. There are many studies examining couples and the height differences between the man and the woman, and generally speaking the men are about one head length taller and the women are about one head length shorter. And there are many surveys which reveal that women who find taller men more attractive and men who find shorter women more attractive on average. Maybe it's DNA or humans looking at couples and wanting the same thing or "heightism" as some call it or a combination of the three (and more).

So when there is a huge difference in height between the woman and the man in pairs or ice dance, there's a visceral feeling that they don't belong with one another, a sudden jolt to that "physical harmony". (And then there's the sometimes uncomfortable posture if the man has to bend down awkwardly with the lady in a hold.) The same thing goes for couples that are of even height though that's mainly because of body mechanics more than anything else since lifts have greater range of movement when the man isn't taller than the woman.

 

[GarthAqua]

Maybe one of the pair with less height difference is Sui/Han. Han is a small guy and he is lucky to have a small partner. They look more like a dance team.
Duhaml/Radford is with much height difference but Meagan stated that they also have trouble with twists because Radford need to do extra work to get her up.

 

[ladyjane]

When I started watching pairs, it always struck me as incongruous to have a really big (and tall) man combined with a teeny weeny slight lady (or as Mathman said: gorilla and flea), and only when I got into the discipline a bit more did I change my stance. But at the time I tended to like couples with less of a 'mismatch' in body size and height (I think the judges aren't really biased towards a big height difference but mostly towards differences in overall body size), like Marina Eltsova and Andrej Bushkov or Natalia Mishkutionok and Artur Dmitriev. True, the lady is always somewhat shorter, but more in what most would consider 'the normal range', app. 25-30 cm. Furthermore, I think Zhang Hao is rather burly (and just plain big), just like Stanislav Morosov and that may amplify the dislike among the judges. Not sure there is a trend going on, because with Sui/Han commentators always mention that Han is so small himself with relatively short arms making it difficult to get some distance between his head and Sui's body while doing the lifts. I myself changed my stance towards all this when I realised pair girls (or ladies) have to be really strong as they may not have to lift they still have to have strong muscles in the arms, still have to jump, etc. It was when I got to understand throw jumps that it all fell away, as they're not really throws but assisted jumps going really far and high (the throw part works as a kind of accelerator) making it a heavy burden for the landing leg and foot. Imagine being teeny weeny and slight, and having to land on one foot from an immense distance and height, and you'll get what I mean. So, I think height difference and too much body size difference can be both a hindrance and an advantage, considering what element is being executed. I should think the judges know this too. And less aesthetically pleasing? I don't think so anymore, and I'm just a watcher. Not an experienced judge who has seen uncountable numbers of couples passing by.

Calling Savchenko and Yu solo pairs skaters may indeed have something to do with other things. When Savchenko and Massot started out, it may have been because Savchenko was already good, and Massot had to catch up somewhat. But calling her a solo skater since the 16/17 season (when they skated the beautiful 'lighthouse' programme) would be really unfair to Bruno who surely wasn't a giant just executing good lifts. He did those, no question, but there was a lot more to his skating than that. Think of the elegance, the unison, etc. I found and find them really beautiful together. And, let's be honest, while Yu is a beautiful elegant skater, one can scarcely call Zhang Hao a master of elegance. I have the feeling the negativism towards him and the simultaneously uplifting of Yu has more to do with the partner swap some seasons ago than with a discrepancy in size. Although such a discrepancy exists, it shouldn't really be an issue. Furthermore Yu isn't that tiny, but she is rather slight.

 

[karne]

Has anyone noticed such a trend? I do feel there's a bias amongst viewers a little, because I've seen posts calling Zhang Hao "lumbering", for instance

That's not a gorilla-and-flea issue. That's an issue with a genuinely lumbering skater who is clearly too old to be continuing to do this and yet is somehow considered a pairs god by the PTB in China to the point of splitting up a promising pair just so he could get the girl.

The only time I find gorilla-and-flea pairs weird is when it's in Juniors and it's obvious that the guy is like 20 and the girl is 13-14. Especially when the choreographer then gives them a romantic program. That's creepy.

Otherwise, Katia and Harley are a gorilla-and-flea pair, and I don't think it harms them. The flag next to their name does more harm to their PCS than their height difference.

 

[Mathman]

Here is the podium at the 1994 Olympics.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rijew-jekaterinagordejewa-picture-id545694177

As for esthetics, I always regarded Belousova (5’3”) and Protopopov (5’7”) asa beautifully matched pair.

The only thing that doesn’t look right is when the lady is so small and young that it gives the visual impression of a grown man skating with a child.

 

[ladyjane]

Here is the podium at the 1994 Olympics.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rijew-jekaterinagordejewa-picture-id545694177

As for esthetics, I always regarded Belousova (5’3”) and Protopopov (5’7”) as beautifully matched pair.

The only thing that doesn’t look right is when the lady is so small and young that it gives the visual impression of a grown man skating with a child.

I did not even get into age differences...but yes, absolutely!

 

[maggieanne]

The only time I find gorilla-and-flea pairs weird is when it's in Juniors and it's obvious that the guy is like 20 and the girl is 13-14. Especially when the choreographer then gives them a romantic program. That's creepy.

https://instagram.com/p/BUm21RhAGrA/

I don’t think these two have any romantic programs, but when it comes to juniors with crazy height and age differences, this photo is the first thing I think of.

 

[ladyjane]

https://instagram.com/p/BUm21RhAGrA/

I don’t think these two have any romantic programs, but when it comes to juniors with crazy height and age differences, this photo is the first thing I think of.

Hahaha. Yeah, good point. I must admit these two are still incongruous to me despite my change in stance towards big men and little girls.

 

[lesnar001]

Here is the podium at the 1994 Olympics.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rijew-jekaterinagordejewa-picture-id545694177

As for esthetics, I always regarded Belousova (5’3”) and Protopopov (5’7”) asa beautifully matched pair.

The only thing that doesn’t look right is when the lady is so small and young that it gives the visual impression of a grown man skating with a child.

Nice picture.
That was one helluva competition.

 

[Rissa]

Here is the podium at the 1994 Olympics.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...rijew-jekaterinagordejewa-picture-id545694177

As for esthetics, I always regarded Belousova (5’3”) and Protopopov (5’7”) asa beautifully matched pair.

The only thing that doesn’t look right is when the lady is so small and young that it gives the visual impression of a grown man skating with a child.

My mom commented on Peng/Zhang in 2014/15 "it looks like pedophilia, I hate it". She had absolutely no problem with Duhamel/Radford.

 

[ladyjane]

There are of course moments when it's perfectly okay when a grown man skates with a young child (I recall seeing a wonderful picture of John Zimmerman lifting his little daughter, but that was at a special show event, celebrating Figure Skaters and their children), but in competition....

 

[ladyjane]

It seems I can't stop posting this evening...this whole thread reminds me of a lovely moment when Bruno and Vladimir lifted Cong Han to make him reach their heights for the photo. Very funny, and also really a nice initiative of the numbers 2. and 3. honouring the number 1.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I think it depends. Kostiukovich/Ialin have a huge height difference (as well as age) but it doesn't feel as weird as, say, Poluianova/Sopot, whose age difference just feels larger even though it's not. So, I think external factors are at play too.

 

[VenusHalley]

https://instagram.com/p/BUm21RhAGrA/

I don’t think these two have any romantic programs, but when it comes to juniors with crazy height and age differences, this photo is the first thing I think of.

Oh my. I would get uncomfortable watching these two... on some elements it would feel he is just throwing her around.

(and.... how do they even do twists? it seems he'd have to crouch to pick her up....)

 

[GarthAqua]

It seems I can't stop posting this evening...this whole thread reminds me of a lovely moment when Bruno and Vladimir lifted Cong Han to make him reach their heights for the photo. Very funny, and also really a nice initiative of the numbers 2. and 3. honouring the number 1.

LOL and some pair guys did the same thing in Chinese Nationals. Han is almost the same height with Yu.

 

[solani]

That's not a gorilla-and-flea issue. That's an issue with a genuinely lumbering skater who is clearly too old to be continuing to do this and yet is somehow considered a pairs god by the PTB in China to the point of splitting up a promising pair just so he could get the girl.

The only time I find gorilla-and-flea pairs weird is when it's in Juniors and it's obvious that the guy is like 20 and the girl is 13-14. Especially when the choreographer then gives them a romantic program. That's creepy.

Otherwise, Katia and Harley are a gorilla-and-flea pair, and I don't think it harms them. The flag next to their name does more harm to their PCS than their height difference.

I agree. I also think that the age difference is creepy sometimes. Especially because there's at least one country who has a history of adjusting birth dates when necessary throughout many different sports. The image of a huge grown man throwing around a little girl is not may favourite aesthetic.
I don't mind if the lady is small, if she looks mature. So Aljona and Bruno, Meagan and Eric and even Yu/Zhang (also because of the well chosen programs) look fine to me.

 

[icetug]

I don’t think these two have any romantic programs, but when it comes to juniors with crazy height and age differences, this photo is the first thing I think of.

I would never think of "crazy differences" about them, because of their programs . He's like her older brother, both protective and challenging. And their height difference is average, 32 cm. Dmitrii is rather short for a pair skater (175 cm) so it's quite possible that in two years time she will be too tall to continue together. Hopefully not...

 

[Giver]

Honestly, I like this kind of pairs because they don't give me "pedophilic impression". Rather, as icetug said above, "big brother - little sister" impression, and I'm fine with it.

 

[gkelly]

On the other hand, if I were the parent of a 12- to 15-year-old female pair skater who was ready to start learning triple twists and triple throws and lasso lifts, I'd rather have her learn them with a young man who is more physically and emotionally mature than with a boy close to her own age.