Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."

[Flying Feijoa]

Trusova is being judged by the a different standard. However, claims of bribery are unnecessary and unlikely. It just comes down to federation politics. They are just supporting the coach that brings them results. Plushenko has both been hurt by, and benefitted from politics in the past. He should understand this, and figure out a better way to deal with it than claims of bribery.

Agree, unfair calling is a valid complaint but it's not wise to link its cause to bribery. There are many fans and judges who would readily display the same type of bias seen in Russian Nationals with no monetary incentive at all. Favouritism happens for many other reasons, including as you mentioned pushing skaters from a club with an established track record. Not that it's right, of course.

I think Plushenko has the influence to potentially improve things, but this level of confrontation might backfire. From an Asian perspective (my family background, maybe Russia is similar), causing the fed to lose face will compel them to target him even more. If I were him I'd instead call out other cases of unfair judging that do not involve his skaters or rivals (e.g. in pairs events) to add legitimacy and gain allies.

You completely missed my point. I have always liked Sasha and enjoyed her skating. She is feisty and fights for it. But to me she is not skating better and is that not the point of switching coaches? And I don't care who is saying this. Whoever makes such accusations, best come up with some facts.

At least from what I can see her upper body and shoulders are more stable especially during crossovers. Previously she had a lot of shoulder/neck/arm movement (shared by many of Tutberidze's students, from Lipnitskaya to Usacheva, and lest I be accused of being biased, Liza Tukt does this too). She also used to do a weird motion (like elbowing someone) when stepping from back inside to forward outside but doesn't anymore. Overall her head and arm positions are more deliberate and sustained. It was especially evident here at RusNats with watered-down tech content where she put back the transitions,
From a jump perspective, she's got about the same quad repertoire as the tail end of last season, but that looks better if you consider her growth spurt (and other puberty-related changes, as far as they manifest in her body type). We don't have a negative control to compare how she would have done at this age under Tutberidze. As for the 3A, so far this season it looks a lot closer than that lone attempt at GPF 2019 which was rather YOLO.
It seems to me like she has improved in both skating and jumps, but hasn't yet found the sweet spot to show both in the same competition. Let's wait till next season to judge the full effect of this coaching change - after all, both Raf and Orser have said it takes 1.5-2 years to adapt to new training regimens.

 

[skylark]

Judges are in the business of judging. That means they're going to make judgement calls. Inherently, that means that there will be differences of opinion. Just reading the 41 responses in this thread thus far makes this clear. As if anyone who reads this forum regularly needs any further clarification.

Plushenko seems to believe he's the one who's right. He seems to believe that his judgement and his opinion are always right. We all have the right to be passionate about our views. It's the resulting behavior that matters. Whatever you believe about the validity or non-validity of his complaints about 2010 short program, I think he benefitted from the scoring in the free skate. No matter; it's his behavior that was the real problem at that Olympics. He acted like the classic sore loser and a very poor sportsman. I wasn't surprised to see his behavior this week-end.

Having said that, I think Sasha's skating, form, maturity and possibly her confidence have improved since she's been studying with him. I think he sees what she needs, and he's guiding her in a good direction.

 

[charlotte14]

I think bronze for Trusova was correct. It was Kamila I think should have been the gold medalist. Plushenko has the rights to complain but I am afraid he does not know what is best for his skater.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Judges are in the business of judging. That means they're going to make judgement calls.

But they shouldn't have carte blanche to make judgements that are clearly wrong. Just because 10 years ago some judge gave Plushy a higher GOE on a jump does not mean it's fair that the GOE for Sasha's quad Lutz comb should be lower than Kamila's quad toe combo. Especially when Sasha did a 4Lz-3T and Kamila a 4T-2T

https://youtu.be/b4Wu2tQOnK8 - Here's Kamila's quad combo at .48 seconds she receives a whopping extra 4.18 points for it.

https://youtu.be/UXPe6S1Zho0 - Here's Sasha doing the MOST difficult combo at 0.46 for which she gets mere 3.61 extra points. Considering the difference in base value, the GOE difference is enormous.

Come on if it was the other way around, or basically any skater not coached by Plushy you'd call BS.

 

[readernick]

You completely missed my point. I have always liked Sasha and enjoyed her skating. She is feisty and fights for it. But to me she is not skating better and is that not the point of switching coaches? And I don't care who is saying this. Whoever makes such accusations, best come up with some facts.

I actually do think she is. It isn't a magical transformation but there have been improvements. As Flying Feijoa mentioned, her upper body is much more controlled now while doing crossovers and she does have a bit more flow. It isn't like she has gone from a 6 in SS to a 9.5, but the improvement is evident. Her jumps have also improved (she has always been a talented jumper) but she maintains much better posture into the jumps, between the jumps, and after the jumps now. They are also a bit higher. ( Anna's jumps have also gotten higher but she hasn't improved her posture in combination jumps). I would say that I didn't notice the same amount of commitment to choreography at this competition as I did in her previous SPs but she is injured so she was probably focused on being technically sound. The issue I see with the scoring is that she is the only one being called on her edges when in reality almost all of these girls deserve a ! or e on at least one jump. She also isn't getting the same crazy GOE overscoring as some other skaters are.... some of that is deserved (Valieva vs Sasha's spins are in a different category) but some of it is just rather obvious favoritism. Anyway, I think there are better ways for Plushenko to deal with this issue than by claiming bribery.

 

[charlotte14]

But they shouldn't have carte blanche to make judgements that are clearly wrong. Just because 10 years ago some judge gave Plushy a higher GOE on a jump does not mean it's fair that the GOE for Sasha's quad Lutz comb should be lower than Kamila's quad toe combo. Especially when Sasha did a 4Lz-3T and Kamila a 4T-2T

https://youtu.be/b4Wu2tQOnK8 - Here's Kamila's quad combo at .48 seconds she receives a whopping extra 4.18 points for it.

https://youtu.be/UXPe6S1Zho0 - Here's Sasha doing the MOST difficult combo at 0.46 for which she gets mere 3.61 extra points. Considering the difference in base value, the GOE difference is enormous.

Come on if it was the other way around, or basically any skater not coached by Plushy you'd call BS.

Sasha's 4Lz was UR obvious in slow motion. They overlooked it.
And yeah I agree the GOE they are giving the girls are ridiculous. But at the same time, it is not like Sasha was underscored compared to Kamila who is the best skater out of these 3.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Sasha's 4Lz was UR obvious in slow motion. They overlooked it.
And yeah I agree the GOE they are giving the girls are ridiculous. But at the same time, it is not like Sasha was underscored compared to Kamila who is the best skater out of these 3.

Oh so Sasha should have scored even lower?

Must be nice to be able to smash your competitors even with easier content.

Sometimes I wish a skater would call their bluff and put out a program with the most beautiful and perfect triples that hit all the bullet points.

Do you think they'd win? Maybe if their coached by the Grand Holy Eteri T.

The rest can just suck it. Why bother even trying?

 

[anonymoose_au]

Anyway, I think there are better ways for Plushenko to deal with this issue than by claiming bribery.

OK I want to know, how should Plushy deal with it? Judges have been pulling this crap since time immemorial, kicking up a fuss is the only way to fix things.

You know how the Salt Lake City scandal was uncovered? One of the officials basically cornered the suspect judge in public and accused them right out. No-one got anywhere by asking politely.

 

[anonymoose_au]

. No matter; it's his behavior that was the real problem at that Olympics.

I also object to this, the 2010 Olympics was Plushy's chance to make history, to become Olympic champion back to back.

Both he and Mishin realised the scoring of the SP was suspect, but they were not allowed to raise an objection, only the Russian Figure Skating Fed could do that.

And they in the grand wisdom didn't bother and the rest is history. I'd be pissed too.

Then to add insult to injury those two-faced jerks let him get suspended from competition like he was a lowly drug cheat or criminal as "punishment" for not winning gold.

Plushy owes them absolutely nothing, least of all being a "good little coach who doesn't rock the boat."

 

[Alex65]

I will add to the conversation. Plushenko does not complain that Sasha was underestimated, except for "!" for Sasha's flip. His discontent is caused by the overestimation of Sasha's rivals. We all saw in the SP that the obvious "e" lutz of Usacheva is ignored, that the broken rotation and the sequence of steps almost with a fall get the maximum level and large GOEs. When a shaky landing gets a GOE as a perfect jump. How do you like level 4 super twizzle rotation with GOE + 4 https://youtu.be/9bVsr8KP968?t=141
Or a step sequence with gross errors in two blocks, but also with level 4 and +4 GOE?

https://youtu.be/4MK6QiSoDMA?t=203

https://youtu.be/4MK6QiSoDMA?t=214

I will not talk at all about GOE for jumps and cascades, everyone has eyes, and the scores are in the protocols
Plushenko called it all absurd. I agree with him. And I will welcome the fight against overtly biased refereeing. By any means.
Because it destroys the very foundation of the sport.

 

[Mathman]

https://youtu.be/UXPe6S1Zho0 - Here's Sasha doing the MOST difficult combo at 0.46 for which she gets mere 3.61 extra points.

Still, doing the most difficult combo is reflected in base value, not necessarily in GOE.

Sometimes I wish a skater would call their bluff and put out a program with the most beautiful and perfect triples that hit all the bullet points.

Do you think they'd win?

I don't think they would win, but I could see a situation where they could get a lot of GOE. (Not as much GOE as Anna Shcherbakova got here, however,)

 

[anonymoose_au]

Still, doing the most difficult combo is reflected in base value, not necessarily in GOE

Well obviously just doing a super difficult combo by itself shouldn't get you loads of GOE, but Sasha's combo was amazing. It wasn't some slapdash effort. Why should Kamila get so much more GOE? I'm not even saying Kamila's GOE is wrong, only that Sasha's was underscored for no apparent reason I can see, at least in real time, which is apparently how judges are meant to judge.

 

[Alex65]

Well obviously just doing a super difficult combo by itself shouldn't get you loads of GOE, but Sasha's combo was amazing. It wasn't some slapdash effort. Why should Kamila get so much more GOE? I'm not even saying Kamila's GOE is wrong, only that Sasha's was underscored for no apparent reason I can see, at least in real time, which is apparently how judges are meant to judge.

It's really amazing. However, some judges gave 0 GOE for this.

 

[charlotte14]

Oh so Sasha should have scored even lower?

Must be nice to be able to smash your competitors even with easier content.

Sometimes I wish a skater would call their bluff and put out a program with the most beautiful and perfect triples that hit all the bullet points.

Do you think they'd win? Maybe if their coached by the Grand Holy Eteri T.

The rest can just suck it. Why bother even trying?

You do more difficult layout you get higher BV. If you execute well you get good GOE. It does not relate to which content is easier, does it?
I would say Kamila and Anna were massively overscored. But it was not like Sasha was robbed. She UR her 4lz and was overlooked. They did not call her quads UR. And that was easy enough, no matter how difficult her content was. Kamila is just the better skater that both Sasha and Anna. And on that FS day, she did skate the best of out the 3. Anna was judged generously due to her content but the quality of her jumps, spins, and skating of that day was weaker. If Kamila and Anna were overscored, then Sasha also benefits. She did improve, but that was the right placement for her in that day.

 

[flanker]

Yeah because Plushenko could never have been scored fairly, he's the worst "champion" ever seen. Everything was handed to him on a silver platter and he was never the best, never anything special.

If only skating has be judged fairly all along! Then we'd never had to have been subjected to this terrible, talentless hack.

I wonder how his parents ever managed to bribe the judges when they could barely feed themselves.

An unsolvable mystery I guess.

First: by saying "Plushenko could never have been scored fairly, he's the worst "champion" ever seen" you put nonsense into my words, I didn't say that. Not listening what people truly say and seeing enemy of your idol behind every corner hardly creates any reasonable discussion, just mess. But if you think there was never a judge who liked Plushy more than other skater, than I say you are simply dreaming. And that's not claiming it's only him, BTW, some definitely liked Yagudin, Lysacek or anyone else more. It's only ridiculout to think he never was a part of it as the others.

Second: Wrong, unfair, biased score can come from multiple reasons and I can easily claim that money are the last of the causes that came to my mind. The word "favouritism" itself indicates something different. Figure skating, as a subjectively judged sport, is filled with personal preferences by nature, some like this, some like that, some like hot, some like it cold. It's not discovering of America.

Third: As I say, if he is victimizing himself, like taking the position "there are only cases where we were hurt, never experienced the case where the judges helped us", he's being ridiculous. Also his verbal assaults towards Kamila's and Daria's age (that "doesn't deserve such score") at stage two make him simply a disrespectful bloke. He is transfering the competition from the ice to the public space.

 

[anonymoose_au]

First: by saying "Plushenko could never have been scored fairly, he's the worst "champion" ever seen" you put nonsense into my words, I didn't say that. Not listening what people truly say and seeing enemy of your idol behind every corner hardly creates any reasonable discussion, just mess. But if you think there was never a judge who liked Plushy more than other skater, than I say you are simply dreaming. And that's not claiming it's only him, BTW, some definitely liked Yagudin, Lysacek or anyone else more. It's only ridiculout to think he never was a part of it as the others.

Maybe you didn't, but I get tired of every single achievement of Plushenko's been dismissed, people are forever claiming he was just "lucky" to skate at the time he did, that anyone could have done what he'd done. That he had no artistry and the only thing he was ever good at was jumps - but oh wait suddenly he was crap at those too. Oh he could only do one type of quad, never mind he had almost a 100% success rate with it. Stephane Lambiel was better, Daisuke Takahashi was better, Patrick Chan was better, he was just lucky that's all. You have no idea, there are actually former Plushenko fans who hate his guts and do you know why? Because he skated in Eurovision I'm not even joking, the main Plushenko fan site on the net before his official one was turned into a hate site because he skated in Eurovision and they didn't like it. Can you imagine Yuzu Hanyu getting that sort of hate? Or Stephane? Or any of them?

Then you've got Eteri walking around calling him a fraud, Yagudin posting nasty little memes and half the internet wishing he'd just disappear.

So excuse me for being defensive. Apart from Adelina Sotnikova and maybe Zhenya Med the other Russian skaters don't have a clue what it's like to be truly hated.

 

[flanker]

Maybe you didn't, but I get tired of every single achievement of Plushenko's been dismissed, people are forever claiming he was just "lucky" to skate at the time he did, that anyone could have done what he'd done. That he had no artistry and the only thing he was ever good at was jumps - but oh wait suddenly he was crap at those too. Oh he could only do one type of quad, never mind he had almost a 100% success rate with it. Stephane Lambiel was better, Daisuke Takahashi was better, Patrick Chan was better, he was just lucky that's all. You have no idea, there are actually former Plushenko fans who hate his guts and do you know why? Because he skated in Eurovision I'm not even joking, the main Plushenko fan site on the net before his official one was turned into a hate site because he skated in Eurovision and they didn't like it. Can you imagine Yuzu Hanyu getting that sort of hate? Or Stephane? Or any of them?

Then you've got Eteri walking around calling him a fraud, Yagudin posting nasty little memes and half the internet wishing he'd just disappear.

So excuse me for being defensive. Apart from Adelina Sotnikova and maybe Zhenya Med the other Russian skaters don't have a clue what it's like to be truly hated.

maybe you shouldn't transfer your distaste from things from elsewhere completely unrelated to what I said on my words. Also, do not portrait him as a passive victim. It was him who started to blame Eteri for net treating her skaters well, for accpeting bribes etc., without being anyhow provoked /and I truly don't remember Eteri would ever use the word fraud). If all that is fine for you, if he is allowed to say whatever he wants because he can't be wrong and no one else is allowed to defend hkmself from his accusations, than I don't think there is any reason for a conversation.

 

[readernick]

You do more difficult layout you get higher BV. If you execute well you get good GOE. It does not relate to which content is easier, does it?
I would say Kamila and Anna were massively overscored. But it was not like Sasha was robbed. She UR her 4lz and was overlooked. They did not call her quads UR. And that was easy enough, no matter how difficult her content was. Kamila is just the better skater that both Sasha and Anna. And on that FS day, she did skate the best of out the 3. Anna was judged generously due to her content but the quality of her jumps, spins, and skating of that day was weaker. If Kamila and Anna were overscored, then Sasha also benefits. She did improve, but that was the right placement for her in that day.

Valieva is better than Anna and Sasha in terms of skating skills and spins. But, she isn't better than Sasha in terms of jumps, or Anna in terms of interpretation. The GOE both she and Ann got on their quads and other jumping passes was absurd. Which is fine because no one takes these scores seriously.. It's Nationals! But, Trusova should be judged in an equally absurd manner and she wasn't . I will agree that Valieva is the only skater who actually fully rotated their quads on the day. However, she was really overscored in the SP and her obviously UR 3A was ignored as was her complete lack of performance after the fall. Anyway, I don't think people think Trusova was underscored. She was overscored too, specially on that UR 4lz but she wasn't nearly as overscored as the favorites. The edge call was especially obvious because she was literally the only skater who got called despite lips and flutzes abounding.

However, I think Plushenko would be wise to talk with officials and judges privately and not have public displays. Also, he just needs to continue working with and improving Trusova's skating. If she continues to improve her consistency, jumps, and PCS the federation will get behind her. They aren't stupid and Valieva/ Anna might grow and have a difficult year next year. They need backups.

 

[Novalis]

and her obviously UR 3A was ignored

No it wasn't

 

[readernick]

No it wasn't

Really? They called it UR? Then how did she get 80 in that program? That's some crazy GOE on other elements then.