Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."

[anonymoose_au]

No, the lesson is, don’t get bitter — get better.

I don't see how Sasha could have possibly done that 4Lz-3T better, it was glorious.

Yet one of the judges gave a 0, I know I'm harping on about it, but it truly is ridiculous. In that particular judge's point of view it must be utterly impossible to get any more than a +1.

Except it wasn't that same judge showered +4 and +5 on Anna and Kamila.

I'm not questioning whether those two deserved those GOE, I'm questioning why Sasha didn't.

To make it extra confusing that judge gave her a 4 later on, so...was the 0 a mistaken entry? If so it should be fixed, it's the principle of the thing.

I don't think we should just throw up our hands and be like "Whatever" when this stuff happens. Not being able to question results is not in the interest of any sport.

Of course sport is unfair even when you do question these things. For example in 2019 the referee made a mistake at the final minutes of a rugby league final here and as a result one of the teams didn't get possession of the ball when they should have. They lost the game.

Everyone, even the referee realised the mistake, but did they replay the game? No. Did they even make it a tie? No. So one team lost through no fault of their own, were unfairly treated and lost the chance to be champions. How is that fair?

And another thing, I assume this being a national competition the judges are overseen by the Russian Figure Skating Fed.

So... people here want Plushy to politely complain to the Fed about how the judges the Fed picked are judging.

Yeeeeeah, that'll bring a change.

 

[Amei]

Firstly, one judge being obviously biased isn’t grounds for saying the sky is falling.

Trusova got 66 PCS at Rostelecom with 4 falls (compared to 67.42 for her cleaner and more difficult and better performed FS at Skate Canada 2019). She is hardly a victim of some homegrown fix, and indeed (like other Russian skaters) a beneficiary in some cases.

She got higher PCS with that FS than what Nugamanova at the same competition.

Firstly, one judge being obviously biased isn’t grounds for saying the sky is falling.

Trusova got 66 PCS at Rostelecom with 4 falls (compared to 67.42 for her cleaner and more difficult and better performed FS at Skate Canada 2019). She is hardly a victim of some homegrown fix, and indeed (like other Russian skaters) a beneficiary in some cases.

This is my problem with Plushenko's media antics about judging, it's not like he's just an observer but an active coach who has skaters that are getting advantageous calls of their own and he's not going to call out poor judging that is in his skater's favor.

Is there problems with judging in figure skating - absolutely (I think that's 1 thing that fans can agree with), but I don't think Plushenko's antics are going to help fix that problem.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Firstly, one judge being obviously biased isn’t grounds for saying the sky is falling.

Trusova got 66 PCS at Rostelecom with 4 falls (compared to 67.42 for her cleaner and more difficult and better performed FS at Skate Canada 2019). She is hardly a victim of some homegrown fix, and indeed (like other Russian skaters) a beneficiary in some cases.

Maybe not, but that judge has no business judging if they can't check their bias in at the door. It didn't matter at this competition, except it did... because Sasha didn't just get 3rd, she lost the silver to Kamila by a huge margin and the gold to Anna by an almost insurmountable one.

Most agree Sasha skated her absolute best at Nats, yet 3rd place was the best she could manage? Even with Kamila falling on the 3A, even with Anna's big mistake on one of her spins.

They are holding Sasha to an impossible standard, they're saying she has to do twice as much and be absolutely perfect while doing so to win. Anna and Kamila are good but they're not that good.

Some say this will give Sasha motivation, but I'm not so sure. No-one can be perfect for an entire competition, not even Anna and Kamila. But they don't need to worry because they can still win, meanwhile Sasha has to deal with the crushing weight that putting one foot wrong will automatically result in no chance at gold.

Why bother trying?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe not, but that judge has no business judging if they can't check their bias in at the door. It didn't matter at this competition, except it did... because Sasha didn't just get 3rd, she lost the silver to Kamila by a huge margin and the gold to Anna by an almost insurmountable one.

Most agree Sasha skated her absolute best at Nats, yet 3rd place was the best she could manage? Even with Kamila falling on the 3A, even with Anna's big mistake on one of her spins.

They are holding Sasha to an impossible standard, they're saying she has to do twice as much and be absolutely perfect while doing so to win. Anna and Kamila are good but they're not that good.

Some say this will give Sasha motivation, but I'm not so sure. No-one can be perfect for an entire competition, not even Anna and Kamila. But they don't need to worry because they can still win, meanwhile Sasha has to deal with the crushing weight that putting one foot wrong will automatically result in no chance at gold.

Why bother trying?

Did that huge margin get attributed to a singular judge? All the other judges gave her opening combo positive GOE.

Sasha did not skate her absolute best - she skated the best with that difficulty. She is not on the level of Anna (and IMO, even Valieva is surpassing her), presentation-wise.

Yes, of course Valieva was crazy high-scored - but let's be honest, Trusova doesn't deserve 72 PCS herself. But I'd still give about 3-4 points higher PCS for Anna than Sasha in the SP, and 5-6 points higher PCS for Anna than Trusova in the FS. Comparing Kamila and Sasha, I'd give them about the same PCS for their SP, and 2-3 points higher for Valieva for clean FS. If Sasha did a FS with 4 quads, that is inherently more difficult, so I would award higher PCS for being able to execute the same program but with greater difficulty and put their PCS on par. Of course, every judge is different, and every competition is different (a skater doesn't deserve X PCS because of past competitions, and should be treated as absolute as possible).

If Trusova got 77 PCS she would have still came 3rd. And even if the judges manipulated the math to placate Trusova fans who are dismayed she lost to Valieva, and make her 2nd, she would have lost by a lot to Anna because she's simply not on her level artistically or in terms of getting GOE.

Re: your last statement: why should other international skaters bother trying to compete with Trusova if judges are going to shower her with a generous 66 PCS with 4 falls, just because she attempts quads?

 

[Magill]

Is there problems with judging in figure skating - absolutely (I think that's 1 thing that fans can agree with), but I don't think Plushenko's antics are going to help fix that problem.

How come him - and everyone else, for that matter - keeping silent would help to fix that things?

 

[anonymoose_au]

Did that huge margin get attributed to a singular judge?

Don't forget that judge also gave Sasha lower marks on other elements, it all adds up, that's how maths works.

I find it irritating that certain posters can't stop finding excuses for this crappy judging, but are more than willing to crucify the judges involved in Adelina Sotnikova's win. It's almost like Sasha fans aren't the only biased ones here.

That's also beside the point, if a judge is judging poorly then they shouldn't be there.

Once again it's easy to be dismissive of this wheb your favourite skater isn't getting screwed. But I bet you if Anna S or Aliona K got this sort of judging posters would be absolutely screaming. But who gives a damn it's just Sasha after all.

 

[sinus]

Don't forget that judge also gave Sasha lower marks on other elements, it all adds up, that's how maths works.

That's not true. That judge (#6) gave Sasha lower marks on 3 elements out of 12 in FS. And all this marks doesn't count by the rules.
Also judge #6 gave Sasha higher marks than some other judges on 4 elements out of 12 in FS.
Also judge #6 gave Sasha ZERO lower marks in SP.
That's how maths works.

 

[Amei]

How come him - and everyone else, for that matter - keeping silent would help to fix that things?

Well you cut out the portion of my comment that explains my issue with Plushenko doing his "complaining" in the media - he's not just an observer but an active coach with skaters that are getting their own advantageous calls and scoring. Example 1: Rostelecom Cup a few months ago, Trusova got higher PCS for her meltdown FS skate than Nugumanova did (she was also given higher PCS than Nugumanova in the SP by a larger margin, which IMO was unreasonable). He should voice his concerns in the appropriate forum, like with the Fed not his Kiss/Cry antics and interviews accusing judges of bribery. If someone is going to get on their pulpit (especially in the media) about bad judging it should be regarding all bad judging not just selectively when its advantageous for them.

She got higher PCS with that FS than what Nugamanova at the same competition.



This is my problem with Plushenko's media antics about judging, it's not like he's just an observer but an active coach who has skaters that are getting advantageous calls of their own and he's not going to call out poor judging that is in his skater's favor.

Is there problems with judging in figure skating - absolutely (I think that's 1 thing that fans can agree with), but I don't think Plushenko's antics are going to help fix that problem.

 

[kirauza343]

Plushenko being a coach (and thus having a vested interest in Sasha being scored higher/other skaters being scored lower) and Sasha also receiving some favorable judging this season doesn’t make him wrong. There is a problem with biased judging and other skaters did receive gifts that Sasha did not (Sasha getting her flip called is good because her edge is sketchy! Her getting her flip called while egregious flutzes and flat edged lutzes were ignored is not). His motivation for speaking out being for his own self interest doesn’t erase that.

 

[Magill]

Well you cut out the portion of my comment that explains my issue with Plushenko doing his "complaining" in the media - he's not just an observer but an active coach with skaters that are getting their own advantageous calls and scoring. Example 1: Rostelecom Cup a few months ago, Trusova got higher PCS for her meltdown FS skate than Nugumanova did (she was also given higher PCS than Nugumanova in the SP by a larger margin, which IMO was unreasonable). He should voice his concerns in the appropriate forum, like with the Fed not his Kiss/Cry antics and interviews accusing judges of bribery. If someone is going to get on their pulpit (especially in the media) about bad judging it should be regarding all bad judging not just selectively when its advantageous for them.

Still it does not answer my question how keeping silent is supposed to help fix this mess?
It is obvious and natural that people complain whet it matters to them directly. It's just human. This is what a complaint is. As I mentioned some 150 pages earlier, Plushenko did say the same things more than a year ago in an abstract discussion when he had no skaters in AoP it could be related to. Did he get any different response? No.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't see how Sasha could have possibly done that 4Lz-3T better, it was glorious.

Yet one of the judges gave a 0, I know I'm harping on about it, but it truly is ridiculous. In that particular judge's point of view it must be utterly impossible to get any more than a +1.

Except it wasn't that same judge showered +4 and +5 on Anna and Kamila.

I'm not questioning whether those two deserved those GOE, I'm questioning why Sasha didn't.

To make it extra confusing that judge gave her a 4 later on, so...was the 0 a mistaken entry? If so it should be fixed, it's the principle of the thing.

I don't think we should just throw up our hands and be like "Whatever" when this stuff happens. Not being able to question results is not in the interest of any sport.

Of course sport is unfair even when you do question these things. For example in 2019 the referee made a mistake at the final minutes of a rugby league final here and as a result one of the teams didn't get possession of the ball when they should have. They lost the game.

Everyone, even the referee realised the mistake, but did they replay the game? No. Did they even make it a tie? No. So one team lost through no fault of their own, were unfairly treated and lost the chance to be champions. How is that fair?

And another thing, I assume this being a national competition the judges are overseen by the Russian Figure Skating Fed.

So... people here want Plushy to politely complain to the Fed about how the judges the Fed picked are judging.

Yeeeeeah, that'll bring a change.

The 4Z landing could have been more secure (which is a silly thing to say, I know, given it's a 4Z). But it wasn't entirely "effortless". She also didn't have a lot of flow coming out of the 3T. The combo is "executed" but not "performed". I know that's not a GOE bullet or whatever, but personally, when I look at jumps, I try to see if the jump is "presented" and not just "done", if that makes sense. Otherwise they come across as rather mechanical instead of a highlight.

Basically, Trusova does a 4Z+3T as if she's going about her business. If you compare that to something like Anna's 4F which has lovely flow coming out of it, you can see the difference. Both are clean jumps, but one is (slightly) better than the other. FYI, I'm also saying this as someone completely impartial - I don't care if Anna or Sasha wins, or gets marked high/low, I'm just calling it how I see it.

Also, do you REALLY care if this judge changed their 0 GOE?! If that judge gave them a +2 or even a +3, the result would have been the same.

Seriously, people are coming for the results based on a couple GOE/edge calls. Gurl, please. It wasn't even close and folks are grabbing at straws here.

I know you love Plu, but admit it, even he's rather out of line here.

Some of y'all are acting as though Trusova lost by 0.5 points and more favourable judging would suddenly make her Russian champion. Fine. Add 5 points of PCS to Sasha's clean FS to give her 77 she still loses. Okay, fine, then let's do the math and manipulate the numbers until she beats Valieva. Better? Okay, fine. Let's pretend Anna gets edge calls on all her lutzes and gets her PCS lowered to 70 and Trusova is given perfect PCS! Yay, the result you wanted, and we can all go home and pretend the marks are legit and confer to what international judges would give them. Honestly.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Some of y'all are acting as though Trusova lost by 0.5 points and more favourable judging would suddenly make her Russian champion.

No if Sasha lost by that I'd be more able to accept it. Basically, it seems to me that the judges don't like her and want her to disappear.

Were Anna and Kamila honestly that much better than her? 10 and 20 points better? I don't see it. And like I said, at some point losing by so much doesn't motivate (if that's what they were trying to do) it demotivates. Or leads to Sasha trying 5 quads and people complaining about that. Either way she loses, either the gold medal or skating fans respect (the good old "She's a jumping robot who's destroying our beautiful sport!").

And yes Plushy probably will end up shooting himself in the foot, but if it gets some change going shouldn't we be glad? Why should a whole bunch of skaters (from numerous countries) get away with uncalled edges? Why should some get huge PCS's with falls? It's like some exclusive club rather than a sport

 

[starlight97]

People also seem to forget that Sasha has almost always scored lower than Alena and Anna for the same content while on the senior scene. If they all did a 2A, Sasha would be the one getting the lowest GOE last season. And the same goes for PCS, steps etc.
It's not like Sasha suddenly gets 3 points less on every element than she was getting last season... Anna however is scoring higher than last season but that is imo completely justified because she is better than last season. Better PCS, jumps seem a bit less iffy, less forced, she gained muscle etc.
Is there bias in FS judging - YES.
Is it the most extreme in Russia due to cultural and systemic reasons - YES.
Is Sasha being singled out and pushed to "disappear" and destroyed because she skates with Plushenko now - NO.

 

[alexocfp]

Any discussion to make judging better is always welcome. Some sort of review system that can be implemented in real time. I am against anything that leads to scoring changes or placing changes after the fact.

Plushenko is no different than any other coach; looking after the interests of his people. Can’t fault him for that. Every coach in any sport does that. He isn't the devil for advocating for his skaters.

Calling it a fix without evidence doesn’t do anyone any good though. That just comes off as sour grapes. His argument will work better if he has concrete examples of scoring inconsistencies.

Done correctly, it does help, it’s part of the mind games in sports. Judges, referees and umpires do hear it, and it is in the back of their minds for next time.

 

[RatedPG]

I reviewed the competition and if I was a judge I’d give the top three around the following scores:

1) Anna - SP (77) + FP (169) = 246 points
2) Kamila - SP (76) + FP (164) = 240 points
3) Sasha - SP (74) + FP (160) = 234 points

I also think their international scores would most closely reflect these type of scores. The thing that bothers me the most about the Russian Nationals is the lack of under rotation calls and calls on edges, etc. Also, if one of the top athletes landed a jump they would get such high GOE compared to a less known athlete. PCS scores are too generous. A top score of 260+ is ridiculous. But, because this is a domestic competition, the scores were comparable to last year. The lower rated skaters from 6th, 8th and downwards are in my opinion judged correctly.

Overall, though, I think the placements were correct though. The thing that will be interesting is to see how an international panel would score each three of these ladies.

 

[Mathman]

Plushenko is no different than any other coach; looking after the interests of his people. Can’t fault him for that. Every coach in any sport does that. He isn't the devil for advocating for his skaters.

Calling it a fix without evidence doesn’t do anyone any good though.

Personally, I think Plushenko is just shooting off his face (rather like us). He is saying, "My skater was robbed. The judges must have been bribed or else are smoking something!"

To me, it's a big "whatever."

 

[Mathman]

If Sasha did a FS with 4 quads, that is inherently more difficult, so I would award higher PCS for being able to execute the same program but with greater difficulty...

That''s a tricky point. If you do a program of greater difficulty then you get higher base value.

But if your difficult jumps do not have extraordinary height and distance, are not "effortless throughout," etc., etc., should the judges pretend that they did?

 

[mrrice]

Personally, I think Plushenko is just shooting off his face (rather like us). He is saying, "My skater was robbed. The judges must have been bribed or else are smoking something!"

To me, it's a big "whatever."

I agree, He's "Venting!" Something I have done a thousand times on GS. Whether I was defending Patrick or having Maria Butryskaya Vs Michelle Kwan debates. In a sport that has no finish line, there will always be varying opinions based on where and how, the judges are trained. I had a strong ballet background, while other judges were trained in Jazz. I tended to give a higher score to a team that had great turns, kicks, and leaps. Other judges loved Hip Hop and a very "Paula Abdul" style of dance. Both are great and crowd pleasing but, my training led me to give the higher score to the technical ability needed to achieve the ballet style.

I spent several post competition sessions explaining my scores to coaches. It is never fun but, you just have to trust that you are doing the right thing and move forward.

 

[icybear]

Personally I dont have a problem with him complaining about the judging because I think it was called for. But making stupid gestures like putting his thumbs down and egging the crowd on was childish and immature. A total embarrassment for Alexandra.

 

[mrrice]

Personally I dont have a problem with him complaining about the judging because I think it was called for. But making stupid gestures like putting his thumbs down and egging the crowd on was childish and immature. A total embarrassment for Alexandra.

Now THIS is something I agree with! I say that as a Plushy lover. I think it hurts his reputation in the sport and as a fan of his, I would tell him so.