Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."

[Pale]

No new info from that interview. Chemodanov explained the obvious

 

[nussnacker]

This guy is apparently the secretary of the Panel of Judges of the Russian Figure Skating Federation, whatever authority that position entails. In any case, the interview is a joke and does not make the Panel of Judges appear in a very professional light.
Could someone fluent in Russian please translate the following: "Можно вообще ввести название прыжка по ребру отрыва. Внутреннее - флип, внешнее - лутц. И катись, прыгай, что хочешь." First he is saying inside edge is F, outside is Lz, but in the next sentence he's saying you can jump them however you want? I don't get it (probably the language barrier though)...

At 2020 Europeans we had the seats directly behind the Technical Panel and I had a really great view of their screens and their work while reviewing jumps. If anyone's interested, I can share some observations I made tomorrow, only now I'm off to bed.

Not “however”, he said “whichever (jump) you want”
I think the full context is missing here, because at first reading the sentences seemed somewhat... disjointed?

he said that in the conjunction with the ISU initiative of having equal base value for lutz and flip. What he means essentially, that because of the same BV, it can be the “same jump” only differentiated by outside (lutz) and inside(flip) edge on the take off, and skaters should “go and jump whichever (jump) they want”. Though it already is that way? I think the only difference is the BV, so that’s why he’s talking about that BV change rule?

whoever took that interview did a poor job

 

[anonymoose_au]

She could also, you know, try to improve the edge of her flip too.

Why bother though? If Anna and Daria can get away with incorrect Lutz technique why should Sasha bust her butt correcting her flip? Clearly if you strategically stick it in a hard to see place you can do what you like.

Why should Sasha have to waste valuable training time? She needs that time to improve her GOEs and PCS!

And what's with giving this guy the benefit of the doubt?! Sometimes I think I'm being oversensitive about how Plushy is treated here, but then I see this reaction and think "No I'm not".

Case in point the original poster of this thread gave Plushy no benefit of the doubt at all. He wasn't legitimately upset on Sasha's behalf, no it was instantly him being a showboat and a sore loser.

A judge basically comes out and says he can't be bothered to do his job properly and it's like "Aw cut him some slack."

Just imagining what people would say if Plushy were the judge and gave this interview...

New thread alert: Judge Plushenko gives zero ***** about technique in a sport he judges for

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I think having a lot of coaches is definitely an advantage. Though, I am a bit worried that the staff aside from Volkov‘s group and Veronika’s mum, is REALLY young, and while having a big coaching staff is good, having a large portion of that staff consisting of young and inexperienced coaches is a little concerning to me.
Mikhailov is only 22 (!), he retired from competitive skating only LAST year (2019) and he’s working with Sasha pretty much one on one.
She’s very much one of the contenders for an Olympic Gold, and she’s in the hands of someone very young and inexperienced. I’m really hoping he has a very big talent in coaching, because this seems like a task that is beyond his capabilities.
Iliynykh although with some experience of doing training camps, is only 26 I believe (?)
Even out of more experienced coaches, Sergej R. only became a full time coach in 2017 or 18? That’s really not that much, being honest.
So the big responsibility here is really in the hands of Plushenko himself, who would guide and teach and help his coaching staff, while being the main coach. Though Plushenko himself also hasn’t been coaching for that long either, from what his fans wrote here he’s been at it for 3 years himself.

Everyone likes to give an example of Brian, who hit the ground running with Yuna. But IMO this was an exception, not the rule.

So the differences between coaching teams, you were referring to being rather small, are actually quite big in my opinion.

Agreed, I was also quite surprised when I saw Sasha with Mikhailov at test skates (especially since I remember seeing him on the JGP in 2018!). I thought at first that he was more of an assistant who mainly coaches novices, but it seems his role is bigger than that - it makes sense, since Plushenko seems to have a lot of other stuff to do. Or at least that's how it appears from interviews, if we can trust them.

You're right that Plushenko ends up with a lot of responsibility as the one directing/assisting the younger coaches. I also think for Sasha in particular this arrangement relies a lot on her own initiative. It might not work so well with other skaters who need a more hands-on approach, but as it is Sasha has no problem trying loads of crazy jumps. If there's one thing I'm concerned with, it's whether Mikhailov as a young coach has enough authority to convince her to play it smart (focus first on jump consistency and skating skills) instead of gunning for unsustainable base value. There were signs of it at Nationals, but it seemed like it took an injury for her to understand this.

At best it's like Team Raf (Brezina, Chen etc. mention Raf 'trains you to train yourself' even on-site), at worst it's like Patrick Chan under Kathy Johnson (a dance teacher - he was basically self-training during that period).

 

[Anoosheh]

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, absurd judging, this article was published today

Судья Сергей Чемоданов: «Люди не знают, за что ставятся оценки. Есть таблица, за что ставят надбавки и снижения – большинство обывателей ее не читали»

Тренер и секретарь Коллегии судей Федерации фигурного катания России ( ФФКР ) Сергей Чемоданов рассказал об особенностях судейской работы в фигурном катании.

m.sports.ru

I took much interest in this comment by the judge:



So basically what this guy is saying is that if you can't do the edge properly, don't bother working on it, just stick the jump as far away as you can from the judges and you'll get off scott-free!

Sure hope Team Angel reads this and strategically positions Sasha's flips from now on. Apparently Eteri and her team did this with Zhenya's Lutzes...(no points for guessing how much abuse Plushy would get hurled his way if he admitted to practically cheating in this manner).

Not to mention the first part of the judge's comment "this picture is not very interesting to me" The guy is given clear evidence of a "!" call and it doesn't interest him? Elements being awarded correctly doesn't interest him?

Maybe you're all right Plushy should have kept his mouth shut and let these guys incriminate themselves.

Except...I have a strong suspicion that this interview wouldn't have happened without his comments.

So who's the bad guy now?

You do realize Sasha had a deep outside edge on her flip but only received ! on it instead of e? If Anna should have received ! on this jump, Sasha should have received e on her jump but she hasn't. My point is that the judges were lenient in both cases. I see no signs of favoritism.
By the way Anna's edge is hard to be dected by naked eyes. Even in video replays it looks like a slightly outside edge, and you really have to magnify the picture and slow down the video to .25 speed to find problems. In these cases the judges give the benefit of the doubt to the skaters.
Sasha's incorrect edge on her flip is deep and clear, you can pick that with naked eyes. But the judges also gave her the benefit of the doubt and she received only ! on an obviously outside edge.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, absurd judging, this article was published today

Судья Сергей Чемоданов: «Люди не знают, за что ставятся оценки. Есть таблица, за что ставят надбавки и снижения – большинство обывателей ее не читали»

Тренер и секретарь Коллегии судей Федерации фигурного катания России ( ФФКР ) Сергей Чемоданов рассказал об особенностях судейской работы в фигурном катании.

m.sports.ru

I took much interest in this comment by the judge:



So basically what this guy is saying is that if you can't do the edge properly, don't bother working on it, just stick the jump as far away as you can from the judges and you'll get off scott-free!

Sure hope Team Angel reads this and strategically positions Sasha's flips from now on. Apparently Eteri and her team did this with Zhenya's Lutzes...(no points for guessing how much abuse Plushy would get hurled his way if he admitted to practically cheating in this manner).

Not to mention the first part of the judge's comment "this picture is not very interesting to me" The guy is given clear evidence of a "!" call and it doesn't interest him? Elements being awarded correctly doesn't interest him?

Maybe you're all right Plushy should have kept his mouth shut and let these guys incriminate themselves.

Except...I have a strong suspicion that this interview wouldn't have happened without his comments.

So who's the bad guy now?

What this guy was saying is that figure skating is a live action event, like every other sport for that matter. Now, some skaters are capable to make their imperfections look better for the judges, and some of them are not. It was always like that, and in every sport too. Sport is first and foremost made for a live audience, not for some geeks who have the technology to review every moment of the game/performance. Because of that, slow mo can mean nothing, if live experience is different.

 

[anonymoose_au]

What this guy way saying is that figure skating is a live action sport, like every other sport for that matter. And how some skaters are capable to make their imperfections look better for the judges, and some of them are not. It was always like that, and in every sport too. Sport is first and foremost made for a live audience, not for some geeks who have the technology to review every moment of the game/performance. Because of that, slow mo can mean nothing, if live experience is different.

No he's saying make your suspect jump in hard to see spot and we'll give you a pass.

This is outrageous! They should do more than give the flip and Lutz the same base value they should get rid of those jumps altogether, if they can't even be bothered to judge it correctly. It should be axel, salchow, loop, toe loop and the other one.

Hello, where's the outrage here?!

Meanwhile, here's Plushy who can't even say "Hey," without getting slammed. Some people can't get away with anything!

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No he's saying make your suspect jump in hard to see spot and we'll give you a pass.

This is outrageous! They should do more than give the flip and Lutz the same base value they should get rid of those jumps altogether, if they can't even be bothered to judge it correctly. It should be axel, salchow, loop, toe loop and the other one.

Hello, where's the outrage here?!

Meanwhile, here's Plushy who can't even say "Hey," without getting slammed. Some people can't get away with anything!

Well, they gave them the same base value after all. The point is to compare both those jumps (lutz and flip) with every skater independently - if both jumps look the same in a real time, some of them will be reviewed and very likely get a call.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Well, they gave them the same base value after all. The point is to compare both those jumps (lutz and flip) with every skater independently - if both jumps look the same in real time, some of them will be reviewed and very likely get a call. Now, if flip is with inside edge, than close to flat outside lutz edge of that skater will be tolerated. If lutz is with clear outside edge then close to flat inside flip edge of that skater will be tolerated too.

But those aren't the rules yet basically this guy just admitted what Plushy said and I haven't heard one poster here who attacked him apologise.

That's high quality BS. He was unfairly dragged and accused of all sorts of horrible things in this thread.

Now that what he said has been proven, in a public interview none of them has the grace to retract their comments? I mean I guess I'm an optimist, but y'know, it'd be nice.

And if Sasha starts putting her flip in some hard to see place and doesn't get called anymore then everyone who blasted Plushy has absolutely no right to bash him and Sasha for it. They're only doing what this judge advised them to do.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why bother though? If Anna and Daria can get away with incorrect Lutz technique why should Sasha bust her butt correcting her flip? Clearly if you strategically stick it in a hard to see place you can do what you like.

Why should Sasha have to waste valuable training time? She needs that time to improve her GOEs and PCS!

And what's with giving this guy the benefit of the doubt?! Sometimes I think I'm being oversensitive about how Plushy is treated here, but then I see this reaction and think "No I'm not".

Case in point the original poster of this thread gave Plushy no benefit of the doubt at all. He wasn't legitimately upset on Sasha's behalf, no it was instantly him being a showboat and a sore loser.

A judge basically comes out and says he can't be bothered to do his job properly and it's like "Aw cut him some slack."

Just imagining what people would say if Plushy were the judge and gave this interview...

New thread alert: Judge Plushenko gives zero ***** about technique in a sport he judges for

I was saying that since it's a translation it could mean many things.

How did you come about that translation where he calls it interesting? Do you speak Russian or confer with someone who does, or did you hit Google Translate and cherry pick a remark that seemed sus?

I don't think he's the worst example of a sore loser, but you have to admit that Plushenko does have a history of being salty when he doesn't get his way. And the remarks he has made came out of his mouth. So forgive us if we roll our eyes at Plushenko decrying judging, instead of owning up to issues that Trusova still has.

He is known for being a champion, and an excellent competitor but, time and time again, he has always showed lack of sportsmanship and a knack for saying controversial things instead of taking the high road. He assumes a clean skate means a gold medal. Only now he is projecting of his own past issues with judging/results onto his student.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

But those aren't the rules yet basically this guy just admitted what Plushy said and I haven't heard one poster here who attacked him apologise.

That's high quality BS. He was unfairly dragged and accused of all sorts of horrible things in this thread.

Now that what he said has been proven, in a public interview none of them has the grace to retract their comments? I mean I guess I'm an optimist, but y'know, it'd be nice.

And if Sasha starts putting her flip in some hard to see place and doesn't get called anymore then everyone who blasted Plushy has absolutely no right to bash him and Sasha for it. They're only doing what this judge advised them to do.

He didn't say what Plushy said. He said that slow mo isn't important if a jump looked good (or bad) in a real time. Which is a well known truth and it is stated in the rules/recommendations btw. After all, i wasn't the one who attacked Plushy, my opinion is that people can complain if they want to. I just think that his complains (the same as some others i was reading in the past on this exact forum) are not correct. I think judges did fine. Not perfect, but fine. And there was no reason to complain about the results. That's all.

 

[anonymoose_au]

How did you come about that translation where he calls it interesting? Do you speak Russian or confer with someone who does, or did you hit Google Translate and cherry pick a remark that seemed sus?

I saw it on Instagram and also from a Russian speaker on Twitter who could only face palm at the judge's comment which I'm gonna take as a bad sign.

And did the poster who started this whole thread Google translate or do they speak Russian? They never said, but I guess they get the benefit of the doubt to?

I don't think it's him being a showboat or a sore loser, but you have to admit that Plushenko does have a history of being salty when he doesn't get his way.

His comments in Vancouver also proved right, Evan was not called on an incorrect edge on his free skate, had he been Plushy would have won. Had it been the other way around, had Plushy won and it was later found one of his jumps were suspect people would be bitching about it to this day. But once again because it's Plushenko people don't give a damn. He's always in the wrong.

knack for saying controversial things instead of taking the high road. He assumes a clean skate means a gold medal

He never said that, he said a clean skate with harder content should win. I happen to agree with him and I don't see why it's HE'S the bad one for refusing to "take it on the chin". Why should sports people who work their butts off be dismissed when they bring up valid points? Why is it poor sportsmanship to point out when something is unfair? In any other context pointing out something shonky is applauded, do it in sport though and suddenly you suck? Why would you even want to do sports professionally in such an environment?

He said that slow mo isn't important if a jump looked good in a real time.

Well maybe they should join the 21st century and use the technology that exists to judge the sport. It's right there, it can be used, yet the choose not to.

Once again just because it's Anna it's OK, she can have a crappy Lutz edge and it's fine. Zhenya Med was criticised every single time she did a Lutz, but not Anna, because everyone has to love her.

You just know when Plushenko was winning with proper technique these same people were probably whining and complaining. I remember all the bitching about how he was getting "consistency points" and how unfair that was. But now that Anna gets them they're suddenly fine?

Expecting an apology is too much, but if they could at least admit their bias that'd be great.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He never said that, he said a clean skate with harder content should win. I happen to agree with him and I don't see why it's HE'S the bad one for refusing to "take it on the chin". Why should sports people who work their butts off be dismissed when they bring up valid points? Why is it poor sportsmanship to point out when something is unfair? In any other context pointing out something shonky is applauded, do it in sport though and suddenly you suck? Why would you even want to do sports professionally in such an environment?

A clean skate with harder content shouldn't automatically win. Say it with me - clean does not mean GOOD. This is his mentality - that if you stay on your feet and have the hardest jumps on paper, you'll be awarded the win.

It does not work like that under this system where the whole program is taken into consideration, and quality of execution can allow a skater with lesser difficulty to hang with or even beat a skater with more difficulty. Especially if the skater does stuff like leave out jumps, or fails to hit their levels (which Plushenko in Vancouver and Sasha at Nationals both had issues with). Without a quad, Lysacek's BV was 74.93 and with a quad Plushenko's BV was 75.03 - that's just a TENTH difference. And Plushenko failed to performs his jumps with his usual quality of execution which (among other things) cost him the win, which Lysacek was almost foot perfect.

If a skater with lesser difficulty can win by performing elements with better execution, you'd better believe a skater with more difficulty (which Anna had over Sasha at Nationals) who ALSO performs these elements with better execution will far outscore a skater with lesser difficulty and worse execution.

There are 3 main ways you gain points: add jump difficulty/base value, work on better execution/GOE (extra transitions, arm positions, more effortlessness/flow on the landings); or improve PCS with a better program and skating skills/etc. for higher PCS. Anna currently does all 3 better than Trusova does. Trusova adding 2 quads removes some of that gap as per that first point, but even still without her quality of execution or PCS improving, Anna will still be slated to come out on top if both go clean.

 

[sinus]

basically this guy just admitted what Plushy said

No, he didn't admit that judges were bribed.
All he said is usual stuff every judge knows and says. That judges can have different opinions (say, "good height" or "very good height"), that slo mo doesn't always help, that mistakes can be caused by bad view angle, that tech panel makes desicions based on what they see on THEIR camera and not on TV/fancams compilations from Youtube.
(Russian speaker here, and bad English speaker)

 

[anonymoose_au]

And Anna doesn't jump a quad Lutz correctly, she does not deserve the huge GOE she gets for that jump, just like Sasha and Plushenko don't deserve it for their scratchy landingst.

The difference is neither Sasha nor Plushy got/get away with their mistakes, which is fine, they shouldn't.

Anna and Evan on the other hand got/get away with theirs. Yet there's a million excuses and buts for them. Once again they are given the benefit of the doubt!

Plushy and Sasha were/are being held to a harder, higher standard than other skaters. If they ever did get away with it, they're hounded forever. Never forget Plushy's crappy jumps at Vancouver, never forget Sasha got away with an incorrect flip.

Anna has never EVER being called on her crappy Lutz edge. It's not fair and I refuse to accept she's not getting special treatment.

It's one rule for some skaters and one rule for others. Of course lucky for all you it's the two most hated skaters in the world who are getting screwed and not your wonderful perfect Anna S.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Anna has never EVER being called on her crappy Lutz edge. It's not fair and I refuse to accept she's not getting special treatment.

Not true.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/gpchn2019/FSKWSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You do realize Sasha had a deep outside edge on her flip but only received ! on it instead of e? If Anna should have received ! on this jump, Sasha should have received e on her jump but she hasn't. My point is that the judges were lenient in both cases. I see no signs of favoritism.
By the way Anna's edge is hard to be dected by naked eyes. Even in video replays it looks like a slightly outside edge, and you really have to magnify the picture and slow down the video to .25 speed to find problems. In these cases the judges give the benefit of the doubt to the skaters.
Sasha's incorrect edge on her flip is deep and clear, you can pick that with naked eyes. But the judges also gave her the benefit of the doubt and she received only ! on an obviously outside edge.

Agreed. Sasha arguably could have been given an "e" (her flip edge was much more incorrect than Anna's lutz which was pretty much off a flat IMO, and deserved a ! at worst). I also think Trusova was very fortunate with the second quad lutz call, which looked a bit under to me, quarter turn at best. So it's not like she didn't receive any gifts of her own.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I give up on this thread.

Obviously, there's a lesson to be learned here.

Plushenko = Bad

Everybody else = Good

Thanks ever so much for the education.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I give up on this thread.

Obviously, there's a lesson to be learned here.

Plushenko = Bad

Everybody else = Good

Thanks ever so much for the education.

Oh dear, why are you making it so hard for yourself. I've never said Plushy is bad, just how what he said about the results (judging) is not correct/realistic/objective.

 

[sinus]

Anna doesn't jump a quad Lutz correctly

Says who?