Plushenko: "What is happening is absurd."

[Skater Boy]

It is a story as old as time. Judging. Yes, we will always complain about judging because it is a huge issue of contention and so subjective even when they try to make it objective. But allegations of bribery must have evidence; we can't have anyone make wild accusations without some case for it or we can just start alleging things about anyone any time. Plushy himself while maybe no evidence of bribery to his his love with judges often was criticized as having judges unfairly mark him so high in respect to pcs. But you need evidence if you are going to say the judge was bribed.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You don't say. Even 5 falls at Rostelecom Cup 2020 didn't stop Trusova from beating Nugumanova who had zero falls and much better artistry. And I don't remember Plushenko complaining about that.

Well, Nugumanova did have several errors of her own (including < in both programs, and also a double and a << in the FS) and no quads. Her BV was 32 points lower than Trusova's FS.

She still should have scored higher PCS than Trusova's hot mess express of a FS though. Trusova still deserved 4th though IMO, but her PCS was far too generous and it should have been closer, not that it matters. It is appalling that she was so close to Guliakova.

I don't recall Nugumanova/Kiibus/Samodurova's teams complaining about a 4-fall freeskate getting the 4th highest PCS (and 1 point shy of Trusova's PCS personal best in the FS).

I just saw the protocols for Rostelecom too, and they were super generous to Trusova. I know anonymoose was dismayed at the 0 for Trusova there, but she got a -3 from one judge for that opening quad salchow (and some -4). She also got 8.5/8.75's with four falls, which is just absolutely insane. Certainly for performance every mark should have been sub-8.00. So the generosity and strictness can swing both ways depending on the judge and the competition.

 

[Draculus]

I meant several elements in a programme, not one jump compared. One jump with a fall, one with a step out, one with a two-footed landing. The rest of the jumps with very high GOE. And another programme, one jump with an edge call, one UR but not downgraded, all the others have GOE in the region of +0,5. The general impression of the first one which could win is compromised for me.

Well, "general impression" is hard to quantify. Obviously, there is a balance between 10 perfect elements and 1 with error / 1 perfect elements and 10 with error / 11 average elements. The point of BV and GOE is exactly how to balance it.

I think a lot of people forget, that GOE rules are universal. GPF level figure skating and some local region competition is judged with the same rules, same BV and GOE system (with some rare exceptions). And it is hard to balance it on all levels. What you see as disbalance on elite level and the way how you want to shift this balance affects novice and intermediate skaters too.
If you decrease the GOE multiplication effect - outcome will be more errors (actually, increase GOE range from [-3,+3] to [-5,+5] is exactly result of quads to increase "quality" value vs. tech)
If you make errors cost more - outcome will be less technical complexity in novice/intermediate area (because amount of errors there is much much higher than on elite level), there are less reason for average skaters to try harder elements.

Probably, values and coefficients really needs to be different on different competition level, but this makes rules even more complex. Hard to balance all of it.
I personally think that current balance is ok.

 

[Mathman]

I personally think that current balance is ok.

Me, too.

 

[FelineFairy]

Well, "general impression" is hard to quantify. Obviously, there is a balance between 10 perfect elements and 1 with error / 1 perfect elements and 10 with error / 11 average elements. The point of BV and GOE is exactly how to balance it.

I think a lot of people forget, that GOE rules are universal. GPF level figure skating and some local region competition is judged with the same rules, same BV and GOE system (with some rare exceptions). And it is hard to balance it on all levels. What you see as disbalance on elite level and the way how you want to shift this balance affects novice and intermediate skaters too.
If you decrease the GOE multiplication effect - outcome will be more errors (actually, increase GOE range from [-3,+3] to [-5,+5] is exactly result of quads to increase "quality" value vs. tech)
If you make errors cost more - outcome will be less technical complexity in novice/intermediate area (because amount of errors there is much much higher than on elite level), there are less reason for average skaters to try harder elements.

Probably, values and coefficients really needs to be different on different competition level, but this makes rules even more complex. Hard to balance all of it.
I personally think that current balance is ok.

Very good points, thank you. Maybe different values on different levels could be the answer. Still, the gymnastics scoring system didn't need introducing all those factors and balancing them to eliminate falls on the elite level. When I look at their rules, they seem to be more exact, better excluding subjectivity, and what I liked very much is the reiteration that every doubt should be interpreted in favour of the gymnast. Don't know how many times it is repeated in the rules, but quite a lot. And the chance of an inquiry, and supervising referees and superior juries that can correct the score immediately etc. Maybe ISU should try to use more features of that system instead of reinventing the wheel?

 

[brakes]

I find Alexei Zheleznyakov's latest assessment of Evgeny Plushenko's patricipation in Russian fs coaching scene quite intriguing.

 

[FelineFairy]

I find Alexei Zheleznyakov's latest assessment of Evgeny Plushenko's patricipation in Russian fs coaching scene quite intriguing.

It's New Year's Eve according to the Orthodox calendar which is traditionally but unofficially celebrated in Russia.

 

[Alex65]

That was not my point. My point was that judges were kind toward EVERYONE that day. Everyone (including Sasha and Anna) benefited from lenient judging.
Plushenko cannot use Anna as an example of unfair judging, while ignoring how Sasha's mistakes were overlooked that day as well. Plushenko and Sasha were not victims of bad judging there.

In general, Plushenko called it absurd not how Sasha is judged, but how other figure skaters, students of TT, are judged. And it was about the fact that Sasha did not lose from bad refereeing, but her opponents won from this. The overestimation of Anna, Camila and Daria is evident in many examples, but you disagree. Well, that's your right. All of us here are just idle interlocutors on our sofas, unlike these athletes who go out on the ice.

 

[sinus]

I don't recall Nugumanova/Kiibus/Samodurova's teams complaining about a 4-fall freeskate getting the 4th highest PCS

No wonder. Can you recall any coach other than PLushenko complaining about opponents getting high scores?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No wonder. Can you recall any coach other than PLushenko complaining about opponents getting high scores?

I’ve heard of coaches advocating for their own students but he was categorically dissecting elements of OTHER skaters in terms of what he found wrong with them. Saying a spin wasn’t centred or an edge wasn’t called. And naming names too.

Focus on your own skater and accept the fact that even if your skater goes clean it might not be enough if others do too. Again, don’t get bitter, get better.

 

[Draculus]

Focus on your own skater and accept the fact that even if your skater goes clean it might not be enough if others do too.

Why ignore other skaters? I do not understand this mentality - 'improve your own and do not complain about others'. Why?

 

[Novalis]

Plushenko just gave more stuff to this:

Плющенко о судействе на российских турнирах: «Это давление на мою школу – топят без стеснений. Давайте тогда оставим одну школу Тутберидзе»

Двукратный олимпийский чемпион Евгений Плющенко поделился мнением насчет судейства на российских турнирах по фигурному катанию. «Сейчас возвращаюсь с Кубка Москвы со своим спортсменом.

m.sports.ru

 

[Mathman]

No wonder. Can you recall any coach other than PLushenko complaining about opponents getting high scores?

I can recall many.

To this day Frank Carroll will go on and on about the scores given to Anett Potzsch against Carroll's skater Linda Fratianne in 1980.

Many coaches complained loudly about the "Carlo Fassi" boost -- you had to be coached (or supposted politically) by Fassi if you wanted to win the Olympic title in those days.

 

[alexocfp]

Plushenko just gave more stuff to this:

Плющенко о судействе на российских турнирах: «Это давление на мою школу – топят без стеснений. Давайте тогда оставим одну школу Тутберидзе»

Двукратный олимпийский чемпион Евгений Плющенко поделился мнением насчет судейства на российских турнирах по фигурному катанию. «Сейчас возвращаюсь с Кубка Москвы со своим спортсменом.

m.sports.ru

This is a lot better than “everyone is bribed.”

Concrete examples of what he sees as inconsistencies.

A discussion to make judging better should be welcomed.

But, you have to remember that in sports the “big names“ get the calls.
Once his academy becomes a top dog, they will start getting favorable calls as well.

 

[Lechat]

No wonder. Can you recall any coach other than PLushenko complaining about opponents getting high scores?

True I don’t recall anybody complaining about Sasha getting 4th place after falling 4 times.

 

[Mathman]

Why ignore other skaters? I do not understand this mentality - 'improve your own and do not complain about others'. Why?

I think the point is that a constant bitch, bitch, bitch about the shortcomings of others gets lame pretty quicky. And furthermore, what other skaters do and the marks that they get are out of your hands.

What you CAN control is improving your own skating.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

This is a lot better than “everyone is bribed.”

Concrete examples of what he sees as inconsistencies.

A discussion to make judging better should be welcomed.

But, you have to remember that in sports the “big names“ get the calls.
Once his academy becomes a top dog, they will start getting favorable calls as well.

It would be better if true The Russian comments posted that Mark Lukin didn’t fall; he landed badly and had one hand on the ice, but didn’t fall. I am not a judge and haven’t watched the competition, but Plushchenko should be more careful with words.
By the way, what are the rules for that? How is a bad landing with one hand on the ice penalised compared to a fall? I was under the impression that it equals a fall, but was surprised at some competitions to see no -1 deduction for that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It would be better if true The Russian comments posted that Mark Lukin didn’t fall; he landed badly and had one hand on the ice, but didn’t fall. I am not a judge and haven’t watched the competition, but Plushchenko should be more careful with words.
By the way, what are the rules for that? How is a bad landing with one hand on the ice penalised compared to a fall? I was under the impression that it equals a fall, but was surprised at some competitions to see no -1 deduction for that.

It depends of the interpretation of the tech panel and every other judge independently. ISU recommendations are saying when the majority of the body weight is on the hand which is down, it should count as a fall. But it is hard to make that decision sometimes. And if you are between two different possibilities the recommendation is to judge in a skater's favour. It is also fine if some judges who are judging GOE gave -5 and some -3 in those cases, because the truth sometimes lays between

 

[nussnacker]

It would be better if true The Russian comments posted that Mark Lukin didn’t fall; he landed badly and had one hand on the ice, but didn’t fall. I am not a judge and haven’t watched the competition, but Plushchenko should be more careful with words.
By the way, what are the rules for that? How is a bad landing with one hand on the ice penalised compared to a fall? I was under the impression that it equals a fall, but was surprised at some competitions to see no -1 deduction for that.

I think giving specific examples is actually great! But by purposefully exaggerating someone else’s flaws, he really is working against himself. He didn’t just say “fall”, he said that Mark “fell on his butt!”, and that “he shouldn’ve gotten -5 GOE!”, touching the ice with your hand isn’t equal to “falling on your butt!”. Besides, the jump that Mark touched the ice on was his 2T, even if it was all straight -5 GOE, it wouldn’t have affected the scores significantly. Plus, only 1 judge gave him -3, the rest awarded him -4 and -5. That -3 Plushenko mentions wasn’t even taken into account.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

It would be better if true The Russian comments posted that Mark Lukin didn’t fall; he landed badly and had one hand on the ice, but didn’t fall. I am not a judge and haven’t watched the competition, but Plushchenko should be more careful with words.
By the way, what are the rules for that? How is a bad landing with one hand on the ice penalised compared to a fall? I was under the impression that it equals a fall, but was surprised at some competitions to see no -1 deduction for that.

For those who want to check for themselves, I believe here is the element in question: