Pot/Kettle simile racist???

[Piel]

Pot/Kettle analogy racist???

On "The Apprentice" Amorosa made a remark to one of the other ladies on the show who replied "That's like the pot calling the kettle black". Amorosa called a racist remark. Do you consider it a racist remark?

I have always taken it to mean a pot is black and so is a kettle... probably from long ago when cooking over an open flame made ALL cookware black.

The title of this thread should be"Pot/kettle simile racist"? That's what I get for PBC ...posting before caffiene!

 

[Mathman]

No, I do not regard that phrase as racist in intent. My wife and her family use it all the time.

(Also, on the last two episode Omarosa revealed serious "truthfulness issues," but that's OT, LOL.)

But then, too, if you think about it, the phrase does not just say that a pot is the same color as a kettle. Rather, it is almost always used when the atribute is something bad. "That's an ugly hat you're wearing -- Oh, yeah, yours is just as bad" -- that sort of thing. So I think the phrase does advance the notion that "black" is bad. Black magic is bad, white magic is good. Darth Vader (dressed all in black) went over to the evil "dark" side. It's black as sin. I'm your white knight in shining armor.

We don't say, for instance, "that's like the grass calling the trees green." Why not? Well, green is good, so this wouldn't be regarded as a snappy comeback.

All things considered, I think it would be better if this turn of phrase would pass silently on.

Just my opinion.

Mathman

 

[Pati]

I don't remember the exact words, but the other lady made the remark and as I recall, she mangled it. (saw it on Oprah, LOL)I think she left out the pot part. But of course it was blown way out of proportion by Almorosa, or whatever the heck her name is. It only took me about 5 minutes to intensely dislike that woman. What a B****!

Whatever the case may be, it is in no way imaginable a racist remark, and I am truly surprised that anyone would think so. It has nothing whatsoever to do with people period! Not even if it is used to describe people!

Mathman, for once (very rare indeed) I thoroughly disagree with you. It is used for any kind of comparison, not just bad ones. The only reason the color black is used, is because well...duh...pots and kettles are black after a lot of use, most especially the old ones (and this is a very old saying, long before there was such a thing as racism)

 

[Rgirl]

Amarosa is so on topic. She accused what's-her-name of calling her the N word. According to the producers, they looked through every bit of tape and never heard it. Amarosa was caught red-handed lying and generally being a back-stabbing b****. What cost Quami the win was picking Amarosa for his team. (Her parading around in that giant hat while Quami was desperately trying to find Jessica Simpson for Trump was priceless.)

Anyway, no matter what what's-her-name, the one Amarosa accused of being a racist had said to her, Amarosa would have twisted it into being a racist insult.

As for the pot calling the kettle black, I think it's not just black, although it is true that black is generally associated with negativity. "The grass calling the trees green" is not just about green, it's also about things we generally find beautiful. Pots and kettles, at the time the phrase was developed, were basic dumpy household items. Today we could say, "That's like the pot calling the kettle Teflon" or "stainless steel" but no other combination has the alliteration, assonance, and glottal stops that "Pot calling the kettle black" has.

I like the saying and instead of hoping it goes away, I'd rather see phrases use white in ways usually reserved for black. "You're as white as a sheet" usually means someone looks bad, but I know, in a scared way. If I cared, I'd do a search of sayings using black and white. But I think what I'll do instead is wait about 100 years when all the races will be mixed and we'll find something else to use as the basis of separation. After all, in Rome, slaves were the same race as their masters. In fact, once the Roman senate considered making slaves dress in something that identified them as slaves. They dismissed the idea because they were afraid that if the slaves saw how many of them there were, they'd rise up and kill the ruling class.

Humans are sort of like lions, IMO. Lions have no natural predators so they murder each other--or at least each others cubs. Every male lion murders and sometimes consumes the suckling cubs of a female because the female cannot be in heat while she is nursing. Once the male lion kills her cubs, the lioness immediately starts flirting with him--after all, he's just proved he's a big strong male. She can't ovulate though for a month, which allows her to see if the guy lion will stick around. Then in order for her to get pregnant, the male lion who murdered her last litter of cubs and she must have almost nonstop sex for a couple of days. Again, proof of commitment. If this male can protect his cubs and they grow to adulthood, the male lions will do the same as their father, that is, go out and kill a litter of cubs so they can have a high ranking lioness.

Since humans have no natural predators either, I think we will always be trying to kill each other. As Woody Allen wrote for one of his movies (though I think he stole the gist ofi it from Voltaire), "The question about Nazis and the Holocaust shouldn't be 'Why did this happen?' It should be 'Why doesn't this happen more often?'"

I know, I'm in big trouble now. I'm just glad somebody finally brought up Amarosa. I worked with a woman like her about 20 years ago, except she was white, young for the job (just out of college) sleeping with the married VP of the company, and used religion rather than race.
Rgirl

 

[Tonichelle]

I don't think it's racist... it's just another way of saying "well that's obvious" it's just an old saying that people use

I thought the person who said it was racist was being a total drama queen during the clips dateline showed the other night... turned it off...

 

[Flora MacDonald]

I agree with Mathman.
The cultural history of the expression is racist.
I don't think that in this context the intent was racist.
This sort of thing is a perfect example of why there is still so much racial tension in this country.
African Americans see racism where white people insist there is none partly because of the lack of intent in the use of certain historical expressions or behaviors with racist origins.
Some years ago, a County Superivisor where I lived was accused of racism by saying the budget was like a "400 pound gorilla" on their chests. An African American Supervisor insisted this was a racist remark and the white Supervisor insisted that wasn't the intent.
My black friends insisted it was racist and my white friends insisted it wasn't.
Regardless of the lack of intent, the effect remains in place. It probably is racist because of the lack of consideration given to the historical background and consequent effect on history.
I think anything that could be construed as offensive to people based on race should be elimnated from our social vocabularies.It should be voluntary in the interests of racial concord.
Should we pass a law? Preobably not . Are such remarks grounds for suit? Maybe, if a pattern of discrimination can be shown.
Omorosa's (sp) complaint is just nonsense though. Even if Erika had used the n-word, there were no visible damages. They were peers so discrimination doesn't even enter into it.

 

[Piel]

... it's just another way of saying "well that's obvious" it's just an old saying that people use

Actually, it is used as a reply to someone who has accused another person of being/doing something that they themselves are/have done.

 

[Aloft04]

Omarosa....whatta piece of work she is....I read that she was on the scheduling staff for Al Gore. I guess that explains that election.

I wonder if heavy people would read something into "That's like the elephant calling the hippo pudgy" or endearing people would take offense at "That's like the Krispy Kreme calling the Fruit Loops sweet." (I seem to have a food theme going here inadvertently...)

Sometimes a statement just 'is what it is'.....no slur aimed at any group. It gets pretty silly IMO.

 

[Mathman]

First, here's the right spelling (LOL), according to the official NBC Aprrentice web site: Omarosa Manigault-Stallworth

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/The_Apprentice/contestants/about_omarosa.shtml

Aloft, I don't agree. The simple fact of the matter is that people don't say, "that's like Krispi Kremes calling the Fruit Loops sweet." If people said that, then indeed the phrase would mean simply, "you're the same as I am." But they don't.

The context of the pot/kettle crack is that of retaliation to a criticism or insult. Historically, even among African-Americans, calling someone "black" was intended as an insult and received in the same way. The phrase means, "You're a fine one to be calling someone black, you're black as a kettle yourself!" In the early 20th century African-American scholars such as WEB DuBois initiated a campaign to substitue "colored people" for the harsh epithet "black." (DuBois was the founder of the NAACP -- the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).

In the radical 1960s, the "black pride" movement turned the insult on its head with the attitude, "hell, yes, I'm black -- do you want to make something of it?"

Since then we have seen many variations of "people of color," "Afro-Americans," etc., in an attempt to skirt the issue that the black pride movement met head on.

Many phrases have been around so long that we forget where they came from. "Cotton-pickin'," for instance, as in "keep your cotton-picking hands off me," was a racial insult. Picking cotton was the job of slaves, and of the lower status field slaves at that, so calling someone a cotton-picker meant that you were calling him or her black -- and intending that appellation as an insult.

Rgril writes: "As for the pot calling the kettle black, I think it's not just black, although it is true that black is generally associated with negativity. "The grass calling the trees green" is not just about green, it's also about things we generally find beautiful. Pots and kettles, at the time the phrase was developed, were basic dumpy household items. Today we could say, "That's like the pot calling the kettle Teflon" or "stainless steel" but no other combination has the alliteration, assonance, and glottal stops that "Pot calling the kettle black" has."

I am willing to be wrong, but I bet I'm not. I don't think the negativity associated with "dumpy household items" has anything to do with the origin of the phrase. I think that the generic insult which this phrase was invented to deal with was, "You're black (and it's bad to be black)." Then they looked around to find some things that actually were black to hang the turn of phrase on.

Just my opinion.

Mathman

PS. BTW, so many people misspell Omarosa that if you do a Google search on "Apprentice Omarosa," Google will say, "Don't you mean "Amarosa?"

 

[Kateri]

I am willing to be wrong, but I bet I'm not. I don't think the negativity associated with "dumpy household items" has anything to do with the origin of the phrase. I think that the generic insult which this phrase was invented to deal with was, "You're black (and it's bad to be black)." Then they looked around to find some things that actually were black to hang the turn of phrase on.

Apparently, the phrase originates from Cervantes' Don Quixote - i.e. in a 1604 Spanish writer's context.
I really doubt this has a racial origin, I think the "black" part is incidental. And the phrase isn't inherently negative, just saying someone is the same as another - good or bad, although I agree it's usually used negatively.

Just my 2p's worth....

 

[Mathman]

Kateri, now you've got my interest up. Can you give me the exact reference in Don Quixote?

I wonder what the Castilian Spaniards thought of the Moorish population of Spain in that period?

In China almost up to the present day, and in many ancient cultures, even when everyone was of the same race, "black" meant that you were a low-class person who was sunburned from working in the hot sun all day. The high class folks, especially the ladies, took pride in their fair skins which were always covered, when they ventured out, by servants bearing parasols.

Mathman

PS. Now you guys have got me curious. Here's what one web resource has to say:

POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK - The "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris has more detail about this phrase than other reference books: "There are two slightly varying interpretations of this phrase, which is used figuratively to apply to persons. One theory is that such action is ridiculous because they are both black, presumably from standing for years on a wood-burning stove or in a fireplace. (Note from ESC: iron pots and kettles are already black when new.) So the pot as well as the kettle is black (evil) and neither one is better than the other. This supports the explanation of the phrase as given in 'Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable': 'Said of one accusing another of faults similar to those committed by himself.' The other theory is that the pot was black but the kettle polished copper and the pot, seeing its own blackness reflected in the shiny surface of the kettle, maintained that the kettle, not it, was actually black. In any event, it seems that the best, if slangy, retort by the kettle may have been: 'Look who's talking!' Usually the source of the phrase is given as Cervantes' 'Don Quixote' and simply as 'The pot calls the kettle black,' but another version of Don Quixote comes out as: 'Said the pot to the kettle, get away black-face!' Henry Fielding, eighteenth century writer, reverses the roles in 'Covent Garden Tragedy': 'Dares thus the kettle to rebuke our sin!/Dares thus the kettle say the pot is black!' Even Shakespeare used the idea in 'Troilus and Cressida': 'The raven chides blackness.'"

To me it is noteworthy that in any case, calling the pot, the kettle or anything else "black" was a grievious insult and rebuke,

 

[Mathman]

PPS. OK, I found it. Don Quixote, Vol. 2, Chapter 67. The context is that Sancho expressed his worry about the risk to his daughter's virtue while he was away, using a lot of proverbs and old folk-sayings to do so. Don Quixote objected to Sancho's endless use of proverbs, but he did so by stringing together a lot of old sayings himself.

So Sancho says, "what applies here is the old saying about the pot calling the kettle black."

Hmm. Evidently this was already an "old saying" at the time of Cervantes.

 

[Becca84]

IMO the saying is what you make of it. There are many old sayings that someone could find offensive for some reason or another. Sometimes it seems like people just want to make a big deal over nothing...

 

[SusanBeth]

I've used the term so many times, it never occurred to me anyone would think it racist. I obviously disagree.

First, the intent is clearly to point out similarities. While it is most often used in disagreement, I don't see it as being all that negative. I'm a firm believer in looking at intent as far as language goes. Innocent sounding words and phrases can be a hateful slam and so-called ''bad words'' might not contain any malice at all. I go by context. [OT It made things interesting around here when the kids were little.]

Second, I see this as a comparison of a person's acts and not a comment on his worth. Pots and kettles are things, not people. In fact, they are extremely useful and necessary objects. A cast iron [and therefore black] pot, pan, or kettle is a thing to be treasured, at least, according to my Mother. She's a great cook. I am sure she knows.

 

[Piel]

I have to agree after reading all of your posts that it can be taken as racist. Black and left both seem to fall in that category. the left eye is even called oculus sinister in Latin. So I thank Amorosa for bringing enlightenment to Great Skate. When they first introduced her on the show I picked her to win. She really is a beautiful woman and appeared so polished and confident. And then.............as my MomMaw used to say "pretty is as pretty does". I was very disappointed with Amorosa.

 

[Piel]

Thanks moderator MM!

 

[BronzeisGolden]

I've used this term several times also and never once thought it might be racist. So, if the vast majority of people that say it don't attach any negative racial connotations to it, is it still racist? I think this is one of those circular arguments!

And, as far as Amorosa goes...she is definitely one of those people that hears what she wants to hear. I'm sure she could make any innocent phrase a "racist" one if it served her purpose or moved her that much closer to a goal. LOL, and when that goal involves competing against others on a reality television show for wealth and future success....what else would you expect? She's doing it "reality television" style and twisting everything (even innocent phrases) so as to give herself the advantage. They all do it on these shows in one way or another.

 

[Tonichelle]

you can take offense to the word "the" if you really want to... in America anything's possible (like the whole warning on hot coffee McDonalds thing otherwise I can sue you if I burn myself because I'm stupid enough to pour it on me! )

personally I think people take all of this rasicim thing way too far on both ends... you can only bend backwards so far... yes there are racists out there... BUT I wonder if the racist thing would have come out if it were two black people and not one black and one white... it goes both ways yet somehow it's always overlooked when the white person is getting the flack... jmho...

I know I've said this before and gotten myself called a racist... but one of my mom's very best friends is black and agrees with me about this whole thing... it goes both ways.

 

[Tonichelle]

Omarosa....whatta piece of work she is....I read that she was on the scheduling staff for Al Gore. I guess that explains that election.

hmmmmmm I wonder if she was the one who helped Bill come up with his "define sex" line... that would explain how easily she could twist things around

sorry not a Gore/Clinton fan at all...

 

[Piel]

As a white person that has never suffered any racial or religious descrimination I can't imagine how horrible it would be to go through that. If someting is in the iffy category I am more than willing to avoid saying it than to risk offending someone. Luckily the English language offers us so many options that it's not difficult to avoid those words.

You can't compare what two people of the same race say to each other and what is tolerated between people of differnt races. It's an entirely different dynamic. No one can say what another person might consider to be hurtful.