Program Component Scores | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Program Component Scores

I wish there was a way to find out if it's true, b/c I'm somewhat uncomfortable with conspiracy as the only explanation.

No I am not suggesting that it's conspiracy at all. It is also true that everything is inter-related, and especially skating skills are very important for effective presentation of choreography and transitional fotworks.

But I am just saying that it still does not appear to be fair that skaters who can do most difficult jumps in good speed but cannot dance well often get similar or even higher scores on all PCS, compared to skaters who do less difficult jumps but have good skating skills and are more artistically advanced. And I am speculating that the part of the background might be unwillingness or inability in judges to discriminately evaluate each program component (which would not necessarily be conspiracy).
 
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I would say that there is definitely a lot of overlap among the five components. Some are more related than others. E.g., it's possible to have great interpretation with only simple transitions or vice versa, so I in theory there shouldn't be as much correlation between those two marks, but both are much more directly related to choreography.

Speed is certainly a product of good skating skills and also enhances the impression of everything else, both the other components and the technical elements. It's not the only aspect of skating skills, though, so there would be some cases where a slower skater would deserve a higher SS mark than a faster one. (E.g., I'd expect John Curry to score higher than Surya Bonaly.)

Not all moves are easier or possible to do at all, or to do well, with no speed because the technique may need to harness the momentum of the preceding skating. But that will usually show up in poorer quality of the move done at slow speed, or in inability to do it at all (if the skater tries the move at speed, s/he can't control it; if s/he tries it from a standstill, s/he can't use the momentum correctly).

In the old system, the technical mark included the basic skating skills, and even when judges were encouraged to separate the two marks they usually tended to be within 0.2 or so of each other (before any short program deductions).

In the new system, it's a lot easier to separate the elements marks from the component marks because they're not even on the same scales. In general the best skaters tend to be good at both elements and skating skills, and also pretty good at presentation, and the weaker skaters tend to have more weaknesses throughout. But there are exceptions. Also, strong skating skills will affect the ice coverage, edge quality, and so on of elements such as step sequences and spiral sequences, and also jumps and lifts, so the skaters who deserve higher skating skills marks are also more likely to get higher GOEs for those elements, and probably better able to achieve the features for higher levels in steps and spirals.

I think that judges and judge trainers are still figuring out the best way to approach assigning component marks to best reflect the real differences in the skating and the guidelines have changed over the four years the system has been in use. Differences in how judges use the marks will vary depending on their own personal systems and how/when/where they were trained.

If we come back in 10 years, I expect there to be more judges experienced with the system to be using the PCS more confidently and consistently, with gaps of 2 or 3 whole points between individual skaters' components often evident where applicable. But I don't expect such gaps to be applicable for most skaters because the skills do tend to be related and the 0-10 scale needs to cover every possible skill level from barely able to stroke and turn three turns or mohawks to all-time great.
 
Excellent post, gkelly!

One other thing I thought since we all feel that there is corelation between the Tech and the PCs. To me, it's not so much that the top skaters get the top scores in both Tech and PCS, it is that the rush to judgement, places the burden of finishing the PCS scores in a timely manner. Not easy for a judge to get it all down on paper. E.g. If Joubert gets a GoE of +3 for a Quad then what is his involvement in the performance, physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography?
Why should a judge worry about this with the crowd roaring over that quad?
Two sets of judges would be the answer but I don't see that happening.

Joe
 
Excellent post, gkelly!
:agree: As usual;)

Stop skating comps and become a Judge or something g. I don't really mean that, never leave your passion, but there are a few here I think would be great judges and gKelly is one for sure! I know I'll catch some flack for this but Joe I believe would be good too, particularly if there were two separate panels of judges.
Two sets of judges would be the answer but I don't see that happening.
I wonder what issues this would cause in the bad rheum? Any?????
 
Excellent post, gkelly!

One other thing I thought since we all feel that there is corelation between the Tech and the PCs. To me, it's not so much that the top skaters get the top scores in both Tech and PCS, it is that the rush to judgement, places the burden of finishing the PCS scores in a timely manner. Not easy for a judge to get it all down on paper.

Why should a judge worry about this with the crowd roaring over that quad?
Two sets of judges would be the answer but I don't see that happening.

Joe

I curious if a skater starts out shakey but is brilliant by the end of the program and the crowd is going wild. What do you believe the judges should do? Give high PCs based on the second have of the program. Or give a medium PCs mark that reflects an average of the poor skating at the beginning vs the great skating at the end. And in the matter of skating skills. If a skater botches a couple of jumps but performs the same jumps perfectly at other times of the program. Should the judges ingnore the botches because skater has prove he or she is capable of doing them clean, there for they do have the skill? Should the judges take off for lack of consistancy?
I would give the skater a break, due to all the pressure, but COP is all about what was done on the ice not what the skater could have done.
 
I curious if a skater starts out shakey but is brilliant by the end of the program and the crowd is going wild. What do you believe the judges should do? Give high PCs based on the second have of the program. Or give a medium PCs mark that reflects an average of the poor skating at the beginning vs the great skating at the end.

Personally, I would go with the average of the whole performance, especially for components like skating skills and transitions. But if in fact the performance got stronger as it went on, that would probably lead to a better overall impression of performance/execution than if the average were the same but it got weaker rather than stronger over time.

And in the matter of skating skills. If a skater botches a couple of jumps but performs the same jumps perfectly at other times of the program. Should the judges ingnore the botches because skater has prove he or she is capable of doing them clean, there for they do have the skill? Should the judges take off for lack of consistancy?

The skating skills mark reflects the skating skills, not the jumping skills.

Specifically,
*Balance and rhythmic knee
action and precision of foot
placement
*Flow and effortless glide
*Cleanness and sureness of
deep edges, steps and turns
*Power/energy and acceleraton
*Mastery of multi directional
skating
*Mastery of one foot skating
*Pair Skating – equal mastery of
technique by both partners

The success of the jumps should have little if any effect on that mark.

If a skater does the same jump twice in the same program, once well and once unsuccessfully, each jump would be scored separately -- the good jump might get a positive grade of execution, and the botched one should get a negative GOE and might also get downgraded and/or might also rack up a fall deduction. The result of one jump should have no effect on the score for another.
 
: I do not believe that any statistical analysis will be able to address the most interesting question -- all this correlation that we are seeing between various component scores, is it because the judges are not applying the criteria discriminately? Or is it rather simply a reflection that, on the average, the better skaters in one category tend also to be the better skaters in all?
If the judges were applying the criteria correctly, then the scores in the middle tier at least would have a larger spread -- and different from performance to performance of a given skater -- while the differences in PCS would narrow among many of the top skaters, but not all. (I think this would be true among the bottom tier; there were a number of wonderfully interpreted programs in the bottom of rankings at Euros this year.) Even so, among the top skaters, you'd expect to see interpretation and choreography scores change from one program to another -- at least in the LP, since many of the skaters have almost the same SP layout from season to season, regardless of the music -- as they try to interpret different types of music and try new styles of choreography.

There was a training judge on FSU who described a judging directive on PCS in Australia: instead of starting with Skating Skills and working their way down the list, the judges were told to start with Interpretation, and work their way backwards through Choreography, Performance/Execution, Transitions, and Skating Skills. When they did, they found a much greater spread across the PCS, while when judges score Skating Skills first, it tends to drive the rest of the PCS into a narrow corridor.

In the first season, when the ISU realized that when the judges saw the levels of the spins, footwork, and steps on their screens (and spins for dance), they would give out higher GOE's for the more difficult elements. As a result, they removed the levels from the judges' screens. It would be a simple programming change -- but there's no such thing as "simple" testing -- to change the prompt order of the PCS to the Australian model.
 
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I was talking to a judge this weekend who said that the earlier training he had attended had encouraged judges to mark the skating skills first and predicted that skating skills would be the highest mark for most skaters. But that had proved to be ineffective advice and more recent training advised starting with whichever program component stood out most (good or bad) for each individual skater.

Under that model just changing the order of prompts wouldn't work because any of the five components might be first for one skater and a different one for the next, and the order of components marked after the first for each skater could also vary. Different judges might be struck by different aspects of the skating. The same judge might be struck by different aspects for different skaters, or for the same skater in different performances.
 
Two sets of judges would be the answer but I don't see that happening.
That is correct -- it won't be happening.

The ISU tried the two panel idea on a provisional basis at the 2006 Nebelhorn Trophy. Here is the conclusion of the ISU Council (ISU Communication number 1428, paragraph 4):

"[Based on the results of this experiment and on the impressions of the judges and referees who participated,] the ISU Council decided that the preliminary concept had been evaluated, did not warrant exploring further and would not be subject to additional testing."

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-179058-196276-113507-0-file,00.pdf

By the way, while I was looking for this on the ISU web site I noticed the announcement of the ISU judges seminar that will be held in Frankfort, July 16-21, 2007 (ISU Communications number 1440). One of the sessions (see Appendix E) is a seminar on Program Component Scores.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-181368-198586-118417-0-file,00.pdf
 
That is correct -- it won't be happening.

The ISU tried the two panel idea on a provisional basis at the 2006 Nebelhorn Trophy. Here is the conclusion of the ISU Council (ISU Communication number 1428, paragraph 4):

"[Based on the results of this experiment and on the impressions of the judges and referees who participated,] the ISU Council decided that the preliminary concept had been evaluated, did not warrant exploring further and would not be subject to additional testing."

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-179058-196276-113507-0-file,00.pdf

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I very curious what were the conditions for this trial test. If my assumptions are true this test was useless. They probably took average set of judges and divided them into two panels. The problem is the workload is so huge it impairs the judges. The problem is judging the PCS seperately as possible base on the skater's performance and ISU rules. Having two panels would allow one to have a set of judges specialized in PCS only (so there will be only a small correlation with the technical), while still have a set with enough all around knowledge to judge GOE's. If all the judges of the two panels are train in the same formatt it completely underminds the point of having two panels. If you paint your car yellow it doesn't make it a school bus.
 
As I understand it, it was the judges assigned to the GOE panel that didn't like the division of labor. They felt like they had nothing to do.

Just keying in a 0 or a +1 after each technical element was boring and not enough for them to feel that they were actually judging anything.
 
Just keying in a 0 or a +1 after each technical element was boring and not enough for them to feel that they were actually judging anything.

That would be quite a bit IMO. That really "says" a lot. And it can be very definitive of the outcome.

I wonder if there was issue if they were only doing the 5 grades?

eta idea, 3 and nine separate judges panel?

I guess it is all moot anyway. but if they think about it in different manners, or just not stop brainstorming, some good solid plan might come up.
 
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Unless there was incentive for the judges to try to make the test a success -- which, in my opinion, would mean a new set of newly trained judges -- it isn't surprising that putting the test in the hands of people in whose best interest it was to fail -- i.e., judges who've already seen their scope diminished by the technical team -- would result in failure.
 
Maybe they should just give the duties of the Tech Spec back to the judges which will keep them busy.

I must admit it would be difficult to find PCS judges from within the skating world. Maybe outside of skating, they could find judges. Heaven knows there are plenty of artists around to do this from every country.

Joe
 
There was a training judge on FSU who described a judging directive on PCS in Australia: instead of starting with Skating Skills and working their way down the list, the judges were told to start with Interpretation, and work their way backwards through Choreography, Performance/Execution, Transitions, and Skating Skills. When they did, they found a much greater spread across the PCS, while when judges score Skating Skills first, it tends to drive the rest of the PCS into a narrow corridor.

Thank you for your excellent post. It's really interesting to hear.

But if they can evaluate each component more discriminately according to the ISU defintions, there should be much greater dispersion of the PCS scores, wherever they start.
 
Two Panels

I really like the idea of having two panels. The PCS scores would become less affected by the difficulty of the elements.

I must admit it would be difficult to find PCS judges from within the skating world. Joe

That's really interesting to hear! But you don't necessarily have to be an artist with natural talent to evaluate a performance based on the criteria that ISU defines. I believe that the skills needed to evaluate PCS should be something that judges can attain through training (given that they know everything about figure skating to begin with).
 
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No, I don't think so. Judges need to know figure skating very well.
That could cause some of these problems too. JAT I don't think you need to be a skating expert to compare one skaters / performers "interpretation" compared to another. Limited example I gave, but looking "outside the box" is seeing it without a bias or to know how to "doctor" a score as well. I don't know, I am stretching it, but the possibility it could be good is very likely IMO.
 
I've tried to make more sense out of the scores (Jr Worlds 2007 Men FS). I chose Jr Worlds scores, b/c as it'd been suggested, they might have been less biased by the skaters' reputations.

I divided the TES for every skater into subscores: Jump scores, Spin scores, and Steps scores. I also applied deductions to the scores, when it was the case (some men fell on their jumps, others - during the step sequences). I ended up with 8 variables:
Technical Element Scores
1. Jumps
2. Spins
3. Step sequences

Program Component Scores

4. SS Skating Skills
5. TR Transitions
6. PE Performance/Execution
7. CH Choreography
8. IN Interpretation

Here's a table with correlations between those 8:
http://alb.gallery.ru/gallery/0000013120-50713-2044471-778.jpg

Then I tried to extract less or more meaningful components out of the scores (to group them into categories), which - given that I only had 8 variables to work with - proved to be impossible. I only got 1:

http://alb.gallery.ru/gallery/0000013120-50713-2044331-778.jpg

(meaning the rotation (further analysis) was impossible)

Things were just as bad for the PSC only:

http://alb.gallery.ru/gallery/0000013120-50713-2044344-778.jpg
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Just wanted to share those cute tables with you guys.
 
Non-skater judge

JAT I don't think you need to be a skating expert to compare one skaters / performers "interpretation" compared to another. Limited example I gave, but looking "outside the box" is seeing it without a bias or to know how to "doctor" a score as well. I don't know, I am stretching it, but the possibility it could be good is very likely IMO.

As I think of it, I agree that a non-skater may be able to judge Interpretation (The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice).

Regarding Choreography/Composition (An intentional, developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure and phrasing), I think that they need to learn what it means to be a good program in terms of ice coverage, use of space etc.

Regarding Performance/Execution, they may be able to judge Performance (i.e., the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography).
But I believe that Execution (i.e., the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in pairs and ice dancing) needs to be judged by a skater judge.

I don't really think that a non-skater judge should evaluate Transitions/Linking Footwork & Movement (The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements. In singles, pairs and synchronized, this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements) or Skating Skills (Overall skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.).

Reference: ISU Definitions from US Figure Skating
 
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