Protocols! Who Was Downgraded? Who Flutzed or Lipped?

[Wrlmy]

I'm not "denigrating" the top skaters. As it turned out the LP scores were very close among the top four, and small tech call differences matter, like levels on spins & spirals, and edge calls, and downgrades. For instance, why was Caroline's last combo spin not level 4? To me it had more than sufficient features to merit level 4, she held each positions at least 3 revolutions, and she's been getting it level 4 consistently in the past. The spiral sequence maybe actually deserved level 3, b/c she didn't hold her last position very long.

As for the other three young skaters, I don't believe that I said anything that others haven't noted (Ashley & Rachael should've gotten edge deductions, Rachael was slow, Mirai was tight and expressionless until toward the end of her program), except that perhaps I've voiced most strongly the opinion that Mirai should've gotten more downgrades on her jumps in the LP.

I AM curious about this last point, to me, several of her jumps, aside from the 3-3, should've been downgraded, including some doubles. The replays they showed at the end of the NBC broadcast gave me additional reasons to believe this. What are other people's opinions?

In any case, I'm really happy that Caroline has decided to go back to JW. That she decided to go, and with such swiftness, makes me believe me that she's willing to work hard, come back, and fight to defend her crown. I hope she skates lights out, and put together two stunning programs!

We can only wait and see how they are received by international judges at the same event.

 

[carolinefan177]

Mathman, you made my day!!!:chorus:

 

[emma]

MM...you just summed up exactly what i was thinking/feeling, accept I wasn't able to articulate it with the clarity and humor you demonstrate in spades!!!

 

[Andalusia]

Mathman, I just gotta say, you crack me up.

 

[oleada]

She's never gotten an edge deduction in international competition except at the German JGP (where the caller seemed determined to help put the German girl on the podium).

Actually, she got an edge deduction for the lutz in her SP at the JGP final.

Flatt and Nagasu flutz, just no to the extent Wagner and Caroline do.

I can understand the PCS being the way they are. Nagasu has better basics and speed than all the other, and after her first mistake, she did a good job interpreting her program. Flatt had a great performance and did a good job with her program as well, so it's reasonable that she get second in PCS. Wagner has more speed and energy and power than Caroline, but tends to get sloppy. Caroline basics are worse than the other three and she's pretty slow, plus she skated pretty early. It makes sense to me, anyway.

Caroline (in the SP), Rachael and Ashley (in SP + LP) not getting dinged for their flutzes is pretty ridiculous and imo, it does them a disservice in the long run.

 

[GoldMedalist]

JUMPS:

Flatt's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP. (neither of these happened)

Zhang's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP (the former happened). Her 3Lz in the SP should not have been. None of her jumps should EVER get +GOE.

Nagasu's 3T should have been downgraded in the LP (it happened).

All of the girls flutz. Nagasu and Flatt have a minor flutz, Zhang has a major flutz. Wagner I would probably classify as a minor flutz but her case is different...instead of rocking over to a different edge, she basically just stays on the flat throughout the whole Lutz jump.

For instance, why was Caroline's last combo spin not level 4? To me it had more than sufficient features to merit level 4, she held each positions at least 3 revolutions, and she's been getting it level 4 consistently in the past.

The change-of-edge in the Camel of that combination spin wasn't good enough. It deserved level 3.

In the LP, Caroline Zhang scored substantially below Mirai Nagasu in Interpretation. Why?

Because Zhang doesn't interpret the music as well.

People seem to think that skating to "Meditation from Thais" and "Ave Maria" at 13 and 14 years means you're really artistic. Caroline Zhang's tiny frame and slow, delicate skating skating style are superficially a great match for that kind of music, but I don't think she understands even half of the emotions her music presents. A lot of what she does is simply going through the motions. She does it gracefully but is no Auteur yet.

 

[oleada]

I agree with everything you said, GoldMedalist.

 

[carolinefan177]

JUMPS:

Flatt's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP. (neither of these happened)

Zhang's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP (the former happened). Her 3Lz in the SP should not have been. None of her jumps should EVER get +GOE.

Nagasu's 3T should have been downgraded in the LP (it happened).

All of the girls flutz. Nagasu and Flatt have a minor flutz, Zhang has a major flutz. Wagner I would probably classify as a minor flutz but her case is different...instead of rocking over to a different edge, she basically just stays on the flat throughout the whole Lutz jump.



The change-of-edge in the Camel of that combination spin wasn't good enough. It deserved level 3.



Because Zhang doesn't interpret the music as well.

People seem to think that skating to "Meditation from Thais" and "Ave Maria" at 13 and 14 years means you're really artistic. Caroline Zhang's tiny frame and slow, delicate skating skating style are superficially a great match for that kind of music, but I don't think she understands even half of the emotions her music presents. A lot of what she does is simply going through the motions. She does it gracefully but is no Auteur yet.

I don't agree that Caroline's 3T should have been downgraded in the long. It was a secure 3-3 combination just as it was at Cup of China and the GPF.

How was her camel spin not good enough? That response does nothing for me. Was it not held long enough or low enough, or what?

I definately think that interpretation and basic skating are two different things. Don't you? How can you say that she doesn't understand the music? Sure it's a complex piece but that doesn't mean that she doesn't do her best in attempting to interpret it. What are YOU looking for anyway? Do you think she should have had more facial expressions or something or is it purely an age thing?

Caroline might have an unattractive entrance, but her held out landings and tight air positions are what allots her +GOE.

EDIT:
I don't want to sound condescending or anything; I just would love to understand your perspective on some issues.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't agree that Caroline's 3T should have been downgraded in the long.

Then go find a program to slo-mo the jump. As usual, her landing foot twists extremely fast on the landing so it looks like a clean jump. But it was more than a 1/4 short.

How was her camel spin not good enough? That response does nothing for me. Was it not held long enough or low enough, or what?

There was nothing wrong with the Camel itself, the change-of-edge just wasn't held long enough.

I definately think that interpretation and basic skating are two different things. Don't you? How can you say that she doesn't understand the music? Sure it's a complex piece but that doesn't mean that she doesn't do her best in attempting to interpret it. What are YOU looking for anyway? Do you think she should have had more facial expressions or something or is it purely an age thing?

I never said anything about her basic skating (not the greatest) or "doing her best". The performance she gave actually WAS her best and she should be very proud. As for the interpretation...facial expression is partly the reason, but it's more about her actual body movement. I simply don't see an expression of longing or yearning, which is what the music she's skating to is saying.

Caroline might have an unattractive entrance, but her held out landings and tight air positions are what allots her +GOE.

She better make that air position tighter, then, because ALL of her Triples are short. Plus, lacking in height. Her double axels lack distance too (so much so in the SP that it definitely deserved -GOE).

 

[Mathman]

[Zhang got lower scores than Nagasu in Interpretation] because Zhang doesn't interpret the music as well.

That is what is so frustrating in trying to understand the Program Component Scores. That is the only answer that is ever offered.

This skater had good scores in Interpretation because she had good interpretation.

She had good scores in Choreography because she had good choreography.

She had good scores in Presentation because she had good presentation.

Plus, she was very musical because she possesses great musicality.

I never feel the wiser.

 

[bekalc]

Math to me interperation would be (although harder to tell) does the person skate with the music. Does the person show connection to the music and express the music. (I don't know for example) I don't for example if your skating to Spanish Gypsy music are you showing that flair for Spanish gypsy music. (Etc) Although maybe that's where Performance is.

I personally feel like no matter what music Caroline skates to her interpretation always looks the same.

 

[Mathman]

^ Maybe one way to study it would be to watch programs with the music off and see what kind of music the performance conjers up in your head.

 

[bekalc]

^ Maybe one way to study it would be to watch programs with the music off and see what kind of music the performance conjers up in your head.

I did what you suggested, even though I said I wouldn't. I definetly saw a difference between Ave Maria and Caroline's Gypsy program. In arm movements etc, and she at least at GPF skated her Gypsy program faster. BUT. I think the main thing is I didn't see a difference in well expression. She could hold her moves longer as well in that program take up the attitude just a bit more.

I don't think she's a better performer than the other girls. She has pretty positions, but she's just not a better performer.

 

[feraina]

Caroline (in the SP), Rachael and Ashley (in SP + LP) not getting dinged for their flutzes is pretty ridiculous and imo, it does them a disservice in the long run.

I wonder if the mistake in the Caroline's scoring was that they intended to enter an 'e' but instead entered a '<'? That would make sense in several ways.

 

[Mathman]

Math to me interperation would be (although harder to tell) does the person skate with the music. Does the person show connection to the music and express the music...

I do understand the point you are raising. If you are trying to dance a tango you should do some tango-y movements so people won't think you are doing a quickstep.

What I don't understand is how that concept is reflected in the scores for Interpretation that I see in the protocols.

To me, Evan Lysacek's interpretation of the music of Tosca was a lot like his interpretation of the music of Carmen.

Meanwhile, IMO the best interpretation of the music that I saw in this competition was Melissa Bulanhagui's LP. She got 5.75 for her efforts.

Plushenko skated the same program for ten years, whether any music was playing or not. He got 8.43 for Interpretation for his Olympic LP. I literally do not remember what music he skated to.

In the same event, Shizuka Arakawa got 7.93. In my humble opinion, her Turandot was sufficiently Turandotish to deserve marks in that category ahead of Plushenko's, yet she was two full marking increments behind (of course she didn't do a quad.)

So I still have the same question -- what is it that the judges are looking for in this scoring category?

 

[Mathman]

JUMPS:People seem to think that skating to "Meditation from Thais" and "Ave Maria" at 13 and 14 years means you're really artistic.

Here's what's really artistic. You are interpreting Schubert's setting of the prayer Ave Maria. Then suddenly you leap into the air, spin around three times, and land without falling down, as the crowd cheers. Interpretation, 8.5!

 

[kikakiks]

JUMPS:

Flatt's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP. (neither of these happened)

Zhang's 3T should have been downgraded in both the SP and LP (the former happened). Her 3Lz in the SP should not have been. None of her jumps should EVER get +GOE.

Nagasu's 3T should have been downgraded in the LP (it happened).

All of the girls flutz. Nagasu and Flatt have a minor flutz, Zhang has a major flutz. Wagner I would probably classify as a minor flutz but her case is different...instead of rocking over to a different edge, she basically just stays on the flat throughout the whole Lutz jump.



The change-of-edge in the Camel of that combination spin wasn't good enough. It deserved level 3.



Because Zhang doesn't interpret the music as well.

People seem to think that skating to "Meditation from Thais" and "Ave Maria" at 13 and 14 years means you're really artistic. Caroline Zhang's tiny frame and slow, delicate skating skating style are superficially a great match for that kind of music, but I don't think she understands even half of the emotions her music presents. A lot of what she does is simply going through the motions. She does it gracefully but is no Auteur yet.

GoldMedalist, you are a genius and my new idol on this board.
you were able to exactly understand and explain the real level of a skater.
you would make an excellent judge.


Regarding PC marks in general:
they are a mystery to me and they will always remain such.
i don't understand why judges tend to give the same mark in all components.
for example: Mao Asada gets 8.0 for interpretation. I would give her 8.0 for skating skills, but not interpretation. On the other hand i would give 8.0 to Yu-na for interpretation.
caroline Zhang, should be rewarded in performance, since she always is precise and stays focused throughout, thus keeping the public engaged, but not interpretation, since (in my mind) she doesn't portray the character of the music very well.
for choreography, instead, i would give the example of Nagasu: she really seemed like a doll, so the construction of the program and all the little details created a good choreo.

WHY the judges dont' differentiate this, i still don't understand.
For example: why does kimmie meissner get good "interpretation" marks, just in name of her good basics and skating skills (which are really good btw)? Why is Zhang slowness and flat edges not reflected enough in skating skills?
I wish some of us could reunite and give a small lesson, just on pcs, to the judges.
Or maybe they are just too lazy during the competition to really differentiate among the different marks?

 

[ChrisH]

Here are some PCS numbers that suggest that there was a collaborative effort to pump up the scores of our lesser known ladies.

event, SP PCS, FS PCS, total PCS

Mirai Nagasu
JGP USA 22.78 47.77 70.55
JGP Croatia 22.23 46.58 68.81
JGPF 24.57 49.98 74.55
Nationals 28.83 57.83 86.66
Nationals and seniors difference 86.66 - 71.30 = 15.36

Rachael Flatt
JGP Austria 20.78 44.82 65.60
JGP Germany 21.51 44.33 65.84
JGPF 22.12 45.37 67.49
Nationals 27.17 56.44 83.61
Nationals and seniors difference 83.61 - 66.31 = 17.30

Ashley Wagner
Skate Canada 22.80 44.40 67.20
Trophee Eric Bompard 23.54 50.80 74.34
Nationals 27.07 55.55 82.62
Nationals difference 82.62 - 70.77 = 11.85

Caroline Zhang
Skate America 26.28 51.76 78.04
Cup of China 23.36 48.24 71.60
GPF 25.32 53.44 78.76
Nationals 25.15 53.83 78.98
Nationals difference 78.98 - 76.13 = 2.85

Beatrisa Liang
Cup of China 21.64 42.24 63.88
Cup of Russia 20.20 45.60 65.80
Nationals 25.76 53.38 79.14
Nationals difference 79.14 - 64.84 = 14.30

Kimmie Meissner
Skate America 28.84 57.28 86.12
Trophee Eric Bompard 28.04 57.68 85.72
GPF 28.68 54.48 83.16
Nationals 28.00 53.22 81.22
Nationals difference 81.22 - 85.00 = -3.78

Among other things, the numbers made it even clearer to me that Caroline won the free skate. Also note that Kimmie got a lower FS PCS at Nationals than she did at the GPF (which also included 3 falls).

---

Then go find a program to slo-mo the jump. As usual, her landing foot twists extremely fast on the landing so it looks like a clean jump. But it was more than a 1/4 short.

NBC showed it in their replays plus I was able to slow it down further and step through the frames. It was a toss up. Caroline's 3Lo was the most questionable. Still, none of Caroline's jumps were as underrotated as Mirai's downgraded 3T.

She better make that air position tighter, then, because ALL of her Triples are short. Plus, lacking in height. Her double axels lack distance too (so much so in the SP that it definitely deserved -GOE).

Caroline fell on the 2A in last year's SP, so she was tentative on it this year. As for the rest, almost all of the judges have given Caroline positive GoEs this year and deservedly so.

 

[bekalc]

Among other things, the numbers made it even clearer to me that Caroline won the free skate. Also note that Kimmie got a lower FS PCS at Nationals than she did at the GPF (which also included 3 falls).

It's a well known fact that International judges give lower PCS for the junior level. For example: in the

Mao Asada 2005 Senior Grand Prix final,
]28.08 for her short
59.44 for PCS for her long

Mao Asada 2005 Junior Worlds
Qualifying round 51.68 clean here
Short Program 25.21
Long Program 48.80
Mao's point differential 13.51 points

Then you just add in nationals inflation, and hey even Caroline's numbers were inflated, and I hate to break it to you but Mirai's jump in PCS mirrors Mao's downgrade in PCS.

Yeah, Mao wasn't great in the long at Junior worlds, but she was clean in the qualifying. The ISFSU Judges deliberately give Senior skaters higher PCS than Junior skaters. So it's completely unfair to compare scores Caroline was getting at the Senior GP level with scores Rachael and Mirai were getting at the Junior level. I doubt the USFSA has it out for Caroline. The fact is that Rachael, Ashley and Mirai for example are faster than Caroline etc. and now that the judges were able to compare all of those skaters side by side, they ranked their PCS accordingly.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mirai gets much higher PCS than Rachael Flatt and Zhang at Junior worlds. Because she was pulling out huge numbers at the JGPF. (Her scores were more akin to Yu-na Kim's PCS when she won the JGPF then to Caroline's when she won the JGPF. And another factor is PC scores are always higher at worlds then they are during the GP series.

You also have to look at the fact that Ashley/Caroline did not compete against each other at the GP this year, and Ashley had lesser clout than Zhang as well. Still Ashley's PCS went up big time from Skate Canada to Paris.

 

[ChrisH]

Yeah, Mao wasn't great in the long at Junior worlds, but she was clean in the qualifying. The ISFSU Judges deliberately give Senior skaters higher PCS than Junior skaters. So it's completely unfair to compare scores Caroline was getting at the Senior GP level with scores Rachael and Mirai were getting at the Junior level.

Uh, you might want to look at more than ONE example (I posted over a dozen) to support your anti-Caroline based comments. The international judges give the junior skaters lower PCS scores than the senior skaters mostly because the juniors are artistically and physically immature. I thought that that was obvious. Try not so hard to ignore the huge 15.36 and 17.30 points boost Mirai and Rachael received. Ashley and Beatrisa also received large PCS points boost and they are seniors.

I doubt the USFSA has it out for Caroline. The fact is that Rachael, Ashley and Mirai for example are faster than Caroline etc. and now that the judges were able to compare all of those skaters side by side, they ranked their PCS accordingly.

Try looking at examples of other skaters, other events, and other years including when these skaters have competed in the same event. Caroline, for example, had higher PCS than Mirai and Ashley in last year's junior Worlds and was placed between them in last year's junior Nationals. Caroline also had higher PCS scores than Ashley at the 2006 junior Nationals even with Ashley placing higher overall. Caroline had higher PCS than Beatrisa at the Cup of China. It's simply clear to most people that Caroline is that much more of an artistic skater. BTW, Caroline has beaten Rachael before. Recall the USA - Japan Counter Match. And no, it's not a fact that Rachael is faster than Caroline. And besides, Kimmie is faster than any of these other ladies.