Protocols

[GoldMedalist]

Ick, let's not bring back the qualifying rounds.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do not see any purpose for the SP. Everything a skater needs is in the LP.

However, if fans need as much skating as possible, I would suggest two separate LPs in which the same music in one is skated by every contestant. Maybe boring to some but it will show a lot of difference in skaters' techniques.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I could not agree more. I don't want skating competitions to be reduced to just one performance. I also think it treats audiences as if they are stupid to insist that people can't understand that it's the combination of scores of two programs that determine the winner.

To me, it's not a question of being stupid, it's a question of the entertainment value of the event.

A football game is over in three hours. Frankly, that's enough time sitting in front of the TV. After that, I want to go outside and rake my leaves.

On one of the "my impressions" threads someone who attended most of the Saturday skating said she felt like she had run a marathon. Why not just a skating contest? Everybody skates, the crowd cheers, the winner gets a prize, eveybody goes home looking forward to next week's game.

For the World Championship you could stretch it out if you want.

 

[Tonichelle]

But Math.. I think the point is that allowing skaters to get away with cheated jumps is unfair to skaters who fully rotate their jumps. Why should someone get credit for a triple, if they didn't do a triple?

It's not fair to skaters who have precise technique/and fully rotate their jumps to have underrotated jumps not be punished.

What needs to happen is they just need to explain it to the audience before and afterwards. And honestly, I think part of the problem with Caroline was the commentators did too much gushing, and didn't mention the bad technique whatsover... And well remember how Dick gravitated to the bad technique immediately when he saw her...

The problem is partly the commentators, I think most of the audience would understand that they don't know the technicalities. And most people would say that no they don't want someone with cheated jumps beating someone with clean jumps.

I agree I think the rules are good and fair... there just needs to be a little less media push of the skaters... and more explanation... without just doing the 'it's all about points' crap that Scott Hamilton seems to be obsessed with.

We get that it's all about points... now do some basic explanation as to why and where... forget the pearl spin for a minute and focus on what needs to be improved...

 

[NorthernLite]

As I've said several times over the years on various websites, the problems start at the top (of the ISU) and long ago.

Compare the ISU to any other organization/ corporation. Speedy & Co. did not address the real problem that their "product" had - cheating judges.

Instead they hid that problem while also dropping this famous old "brand" - the 6.0 - in exchange for a self-important CEO's lame brainstorm.

And instead of taking a good long time to experiment, consult and tweak this radical new product before putting it out there, they've introduced a faulty, unsatisfying product that is not user-friendly (for skaters or fans).

I've asked over and over: Is this making new fans? Is it casting away the doubts the general public had?

Or is it just losing the most loyal customers?

And honestly, I think part of the problem with Caroline was the commentators did too much gushing, and didn't mention the bad technique whatsover... And well remember how Dick gravitated to the bad technique immediately when he saw her...

OTOH he and Peggy fell all over themselves about Early-Years Sasha and didn't comment on *her* flaws either. Most US commentators have been poor at pointing out technical issues. CoP just highlights that fact.

 

[Mathman]

I've asked over and over: Is this making new fans? Is it casting away the doubts the general public had?

Or is it just losing the most loyal customers?

Sadly, I have to agree. All the debate about the New Judging System is asking the wrong questions.

 

[astimegoesby]

If skating ever went to a cheesefest one-program-only or an elimination round-type format, I'm afraid that would probably make me stop watching altogether. Neither one of those formats appeal to me at all and I don't miss the US cheesefests one little bit.

My ideal format would actually be a "regular" LP with all the usual jumps and tricks, and a compulsory/artistic-type program where skaters weren't allowed to jump at all...or be restricted to double jumps, at the very most. That would really motivate skaters to work more on their non-jump elements and basic skating skills.

But since that's not likely to happen anytime soon, the very least networks could do is show both the SP and LP to make it clear final placements aren't decided by the LP alone.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If skating ever went to a cheesefest one-program-only or an elimination round-type format, I'm afraid that would probably make me stop watching altogether. Neither one of those formats appeal to me at all and I don't miss the US cheesefests one little bit.

I don't think you will have to worry about that. The public has already shown they have better things to do on Sunday afternoons.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Well, we just had Skate America shown on TV on Sunday afternoon. The ratings will be out soon, so we will be able to tell whether or not people felt they had better things to do on a Sunday afternoon than watch a skating show.

I'm afraid that the answer will turn out to be "yes."

We have already seen that the live gate was sparse. I guess people had better things to do on Friday and Saturday, too.

 

[Tonichelle]

as someone brought up, a lot of it probably had to do with price of tickets...

as for New Judging System scaring away fans... I think people were already tired of the crappy judging after 02... that's when there were a lot of new fans (mainly it seems for the pretty boys who retired soon afterwards) and a lot of the 'seasoned fans' were just so disgusted with it they left...

but I'm just going by online boards that no longer exist and what was said on them... personally I watch skating for the skating and while I get upset when the skater I thought was best doesn't win... I honestly don't care if it's CoP or 6.0... it's still skating to me

 

[bekalc]

Well part of the problem is that figure skating isn't well advertised. For example, when I was telling someone I work with about new figure skaters she was all like, well when is it on, I really like figure skating, but I never know when it's on.

So you may have someone who enjoys watching figure skating when it's on. But they may not necessarily go to websites, or no where to look to find figure skating.

If you want to sell your product, you actually have to advertise it. I don't think if they were educted enough and could actually watch the short program, fans could easily get the concept of the short program plus long program equaling the final score. Honestly, because it makes sense.

I mean you don't hear basketball players complaining about their team losing because they were down by 10/20 points in the first quarter do you? Fans just may need to be told (Evan fell once in the short program)..

I think the best thing about the new system is 1. If a skater skates much better than everyone else, they can get a deserving lead. Takashi deserved a nice lead at Skate America, and Joubert deserved the lead he got at Worlds last year. ... I think this is only fair. Because there can be cases where tons of men skate poorly, and why should the other top 2 get almost an equal winning chance?

But the second thing I like is that if you have 5/6 people who are close, and all skate well, the judges don't have to pick just three. I think this is the best thing about the new system.

 

[Mathman]

(This is in response to Tonichelle's post, number 30 above.)

Yeah, I agree, Toni.

But what bothers me the most is that everyone connected with figure skating just seems to be content to go gently into that good night. It was fun while it lasted.

Someone needs to make some noise. Someone needs to stand up to Cinquanta and say, wake up, man, this isn't working.

 

[Mathman]

I mean you don't hear basketball players complaining about their team losing because they were down by 10/20 points in the first quarter do you?

But if you played the first half of the game on Thursday, and you read in the paper the next day than your team was 20 points behind and they were going to play the second half on Sunday, I'm not sure how many people would want to come to the game.

Tennis has a better idea. Even though a tennis tournament might stretch over a fortnight, still, every match is crucial -- even in the round of 64 it's win or go home.

I still think it would be better to have the whole contest right then and there. You pay your money to see a sporting event, you see a sporting event. Somebody wins, somebody loses.

I totally agree about the advertising thing, though. It must be money. The ISU and USFS, etc., are not dolts, right? If they don't promote their product (or even let people know they have one), it must be because they can't afford to advertise. Yes?

 

[bekalc]

Math traditionally, though skating has always had a competition worth several days...However, now there are lot more spectacular comebacks than there were under 6.0 For example, Mao almost bet Miki (and would have beaten her if it weren't for that underrotated triple toe) last year inspite of the big gap between them.

Under 6.0 it would have been impossible (virtually) for Mao to win. Maybe they should do the short/long in the same day though.. It would be interesting, though I suspect to much for the judges.

 

[Tonichelle]

Someone needs to make some noise. Someone needs to stand up to Cinquanta and say, wake up, man, this isn't working.

they did, and they were quashed... and that's when we saw the big exodus by fans...

Tennis has a better idea. Even though a tennis tournament might stretch over a fortnight, still, every match is crucial -- even in the round of 64 it's win or go home.

So are the short and long programs (or compulsary, origina, and free dances)... they're racking up points and over all who ever is the best through the competition still wins...

whereas with the 6.0 it was either based on the skater's legendary status (that age old wait your turn "sekret rule") or the skating order (02, Short Program, SLC, Mike Weiss) which I found way more frustrating than having to figure out all of the math of the new system.

It just takes time to get used to the idea... and not very many fans even tried to give the new system a chance... so when it didn't work perfectly the first time people got pissed.

Yeah it has it's flukes, but at the same time we're working with human beings... and no one is honest 100% of the time... judges can be influenced by many things... until you get rid of the subjective portions of the judging you're going to have wonky points from someone...

and most of the judges are the same as the 6.0 systems... so until that old mentality is gone (the skating order rule, the wait your turn stuff) it'll just be an uphill battle.

 

[Linny]

Marathon runner

I'm one of those who felt like watching 24 hours of skating over 3 days was like a marathon (although I've no basis for comparision - furthest I've ever run was 5K and I walked part of that).

I don't think I'd have been willing to pay the price for the ticket if there were only LPs.

As far as killing the sport - there are plenty of sports that are well loved that don't have the big money that figure skating has. Perhaps killing the big money aspect wouldn't be so terrible. I'd missing seeing figure skating on TV, but with new technology, it certainly seems like I'd get to see plenty of figure skating (or diving or curling or dressage).

Oh and whether or not viewers devote a Sunday afternoon to watching an event - get with it. VCRs were invented in the last century, but they still work. DVRs or TIVO are even better. The ratings people also need to figure out that the percentage of viewers has nothing to do with who is vegitating in front of the boob tube at certain times of the day.

Linny

 

[bekalc]

Tennis has a better idea. Even though a tennis tournament might stretch over a fortnight, still, every match is crucial -- even in the round of 64 it's win or go home.

But tennis is a completely different sport and well it's possible to do so. Since players play against each other, you can divide up the tournment in several days.

In figure skating, everyone competes individual and the judges judge whose best.

Think for example, about how many people compete at the World championships 40 some, and imagine the judges trying to watch long programs for all 40 people....

Besides I hate the idea of one skate determing the winner, I like the idea of two skates determining who wins and who loses. I think it insures that the better skater wins.

And as for both programs not counting, that's totally not true. Both programs do count, it's just that if you get a big lead in the short program, you really have to screw up in order to lose that lead. For example, Yu-na Kim had a lead in the short at last year's worlds, and she still lost. Joubert almost lost as well. It's just not true, that the long program doesn't count.

I mean no offense but in basketball/baseball etc... They have a world championship series. And your team has to win 4 games in order to be crowned the champ.. Neither sport seems to have fan issues, the fans pretty much understand that just because your team won game in a blow out, doesn't mean they deserve to be crowned champion, if they lost the other games.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The only fans who will definitely show up at GPs are:

1. Local people who do want to be entertained on one of those scheduled days.

2, Die hard fans who can afford to travel

3. Family and friends of the competitors.

4. Former skaters and officials with still burning interest in skating.

There is no doubt the media plays a big role in bringing in fans. Spokane is the perfect example of that., although it was a Nationals.

I am not sure about other venues of GPs and how well they do in cities outside the USA.

Can something be done about it? Not unless the US has a star athlete, and judging by the posts not even a little 14 year old can get that attention without displying her faults. That's the way it is in Skateland uSA.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

But what bothers me the most is that everyone connected with figure skating just seems to be content to go gently into that good night. It was fun while it lasted.

Someone needs to make some noise. Someone needs to stand up to Cinquanta and say, wake up, man, this isn't working.

Except, skating may be less popular in the US and to an extent in Canada than it was 10 years ago, but it's currently more popular than ever in Russia and Japan.

And 10 years from now the enthusiasm there will probably have waned, but interest may have picked up somewhere else.

There are a lot of factors that go toward how many fans are attending live events and how many are watching on TV. Not all of them are in control of the skating federations.

 

[Mathman]

There are a lot of factors that go toward how many fans are attending live events and how many are watching on TV. Not all of them are in control of the skating federations.

Quite true. The main factor being simply the unpredictable tastes and whims of the public.

Who could have guessed that Dancing with the Stars would be so popular, or reality shows?